Moro blade. derust or etching

[fernando]

I have already shown this piece in the Forum. A Moro spearhead fitted with a dagger handle. Most probably adapted rather long ago, judging by the aspect of the brass collar and the hand turned wood grip, having just now come apart, destroyed by worms.
Could i say this is a 19th century blade ? and probably also the handle ?
My other and basic question is that i couldn't get it cleaner than what can be seen in the pictures, after enduring some tryals with WD-40 and steel wool.
Should i try and remove the remaining hard dark crust, still abundant at the edge concavities ? and should it be just a derusting or will it call for an etching ? any forging activity possible to show up in this type of blades ? is the vinegar treatment equal for either purposes, only depending in timings and procedures ?
I would be much obliged for coments and teachings.
fernando

[The Double D]

I'll let some one else deal with the heavy rust situation although I would continue with WD 40 and nothing coarser than 4 ought "0000" steel wool and a large dab of elbow grease.

For the wood if you want to restore it you might try Cure-Rot. It's a bit extreme but it will add some structural integrity to the wood. I know it says for wood rot, but also works for termite eaten wood.

[kino]

Has anyone ever used "Naval Jelly" for removing rust , prior to etching, or
is it a no-no?

[fernando]

Thank you Double D.
I will certainly have another go with WD-40.
I didn't know about liquid epoxy, there is only classic epoxy adhesive around here ... i wonder if they have it in bigger cities, at specialized shops.
But i will have to see what to do. The remaining part isn't so much eaten, and is still solid, only that it doesn't represent a reasonable area to save, except the section with the collar, which is good all around. I am considering to only save the first one inch where the collar is, and have the rest replicated, and glued to the old part, getting back the entire shape.
Thank you Kino.
I wouldn't know the exact meanning of naval jelly, but i think i think i know a jelly that works deep on rust. I will borrow some from a close workshop, in case i need to test.
Kind regards
fernando

[Ian]

Naval Jelly is very acidic and will etch non-rusted steel if left on for long periods, as well as remove the rust. It contains a strong acid (phosphoric acid if I recall correctly) and must be used with gloves, safety glasses, etc. to prevent contact with the skin and eyes. Not a pleasant substance to use and I think too harsh for our purposes, but it works on removing rust from machinery, etc.

Ian

Originally Posted by kino

Has anyone ever used "Naval Jelly" for removing rust , prior to etching, or is it a no-no?

[Rick]

I guess you've got two choices ; you can just try to stabilise the surface or you can polish the blade .

Polish takes a long time and much effort .
With all respect to Double D you're not going to make any significant progress using 0000 wool and fish oil .

If you opt to polish you will lose that 'patina' and I use the term loosely in this case . To polish you'll need wet/dry sand paper starting at about 120-200 grit ; wrap it around/or glue it to a square or round piece of wood maybe one inch square and wet sand the blade only lengthwise using finer and finer grits until you get into the superfine grits (garnet paper) that auto body shops use ; a lot of work and probably a few cuts later you can final polish the blade with a wheel and rouge/tripoli if you wish.

Then you can etch it .

For the hilt; you can have a woodworker turn you an exact copy from some nice dark hardwood.

[The Double D]

Yes using 0000 is slow but it is less likely to scratch the metal as you will using heavier grades and sandpaper, as has been clearly seen in some of the picutres posted by others on this board. You will not remove the very hardest rust with this method. This method will however kill the active rust and will make the hard rust level the surface of the metal. Even 0000 can destroy patina if used hard enough and long enough. But it is more less likely the the heavier guages.

If you want to remove all traces of rust then you are going to need to use stronger more agressive methods. 100% removal of rust will leave pits, microscopic and larger. Those pits can be insightly and may need polished out. Remember polish is accomplish my removing metal. Polish, sand paper, heavy sizes of steel wool will soften the hard lines of the rust pits. It can also round sharper edges, wash machine lines, markings and engraving and remove plating and thin inlays.

The is a fine line to cross transitioning from restoration and moving to refurbishment. You h ave to decide how far you want to.

As to the Cure-Rot. It is very thin liquid that penetrates the wood and strenthens the wood fibers. I have used it restore wooden gunstocks. It works very well. I got mine direct from the company. After using it I was still able to refinish the wood so repair was not noticed.

[fernando]

Thanks for the alert, Ian.
I will skip over the jelly number.
Thank you for the options Rick.
I think i will follow the polishing procedure, or as many steps i can come through.
Etching will wait for the next stage, if it will be worth doing it.
As for the handle, one of my coleagues at work has agreed to make a replica in the factory lathe. Pitty the original brass collar is not solid enough to dismount and fit onto the new grip.
Thanks again
PS
Do you think you could atribute an aprox. age to this blade?

[fernando]

I fully understand your remarks, Double D.
In fact, i didn't mention that while soaking the blade with WD-40 in the first place, i passed some steel wool and 500 grit sand paper, both in weted with the oil. The result wasn't much expressive, but i would say the dark rust (patina ?) is already leveled with the steel. But being this not a high valued piece as it is, my question was actually how to go into decisive methods, and if such operation had some interest to improve the blade look ... i mean clean it completely and after ask for a judgement on an etching procedure, if indeed some activity can be shown in this type of steel.
I will try and locate Cure-Rot anyway, it is very interesting to have at hand.
fernando

[tom hyle]

The tang does not seem typical of Moro spears?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

The tang does not seem typical of Moro spears?

Agreed ; too thin and square in cross section .
European ?

[fernando]

Thank you for your coments.
I rember that the other time i brought this piece to the Forum, Battara mentioned that ( quote ) the bottom of the blade ends in a non traditional fashion.
Could this reinforce the european hipothesis ?
Well, i was waiting for the new handle to be made ( after tomorrow? ), to show the whole thing as it ended, but i will wait no longer.
Please don't shoot me . I dont how to call it ... if just topographic ( Rick's term well interpreted ? ), or actually excavated .
I have had e-mails from Justin, which have given me the courage to show this blade as it is now ... for i was afraid it was frightning to collectors..
Punishments are wellcome.
fernando