keris for comment

Mamat Lombok · 21st November 2009, 11:11 AM

hi all....
i want to share this for comment,
regards,
mamat.

Sajen · 21st November 2009, 04:59 PM

Hello Mamat,

at the first view a attractive keris! But the blade seems to be not a Bali/Lombok keris blade. And the handle I think is a new but a very nice carving. I don't think that the handle is old because I miss the typical cracks you see normally by ivory. What kind of ivory is the handle?

Best,

Detlef

David · 21st November 2009, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

at the first view a attractive keris! But the blade seems to be not a Bali/Lombok keris blade. And the handle I think is a new but a very nice carving. I don't think that the handle is old because I miss the typical cracks you see normally by ivory. What kind of ivory is the handle?

Is the hilt ivory? I was thinking it looked like some kind of horn.
I agree that this isn't a Bali blade and it doesn't look Lombak to me either.
The sheath is beautiful. Are the fittings gold, plate or some other metal?

Rick · 21st November 2009, 09:22 PM

Looks like some kind of semi precious stone .

Gustav · 21st November 2009, 10:01 PM

May be I am completely wrong, but if there are this spelling (very comfortable) Bali/Lombok blade (in which this blade certainly doesn't fall), there must be also Lombok/Sumbawa and Lombok/Sumbawa/Bugis.

Lombok and Sumbawa has ties also after Mojopahit and Gelgel, which are Bugis and Selaparang.

I think there could be a possibility, a keris with such characteristics would appear in Lombok (even more in Sumbawa).

(I would also like to ask somebody with greater experience (so everybody) about Madura influence on Bugis blades and blades from Sumatra, Lombok and Sumbawa )

A. G. Maisey · 22nd November 2009, 12:07 AM

It appears to be generally accepted that there is a wide variety in blade styles that originate from the island of Lombok.

These blades styles are in accordance with the origins of the racial group living on Lombok, from which the blades originate.

The major racial groups living on Lombok are Balinese, Bugis, or Javanese, thus, we can have blade styles that are Balinese, Bugis, or Javanese.

However, these blade styles are often expressed in a uniquely Lombok fashion, and they do often tend towards extreme stylistic espression which sees flamboyant pamor motifs where they logically should not be, and blade styles that contain elements that seem to be out of place or gauche. The examples I have seen of this type of thing remind me of a child playing with an art that he does not understand, and striving to make it as eyecatching as possible.

In respect of this keris, what I think I can see is an old wrongko, at least the gandar is old, the atasan may not be, in spite of the cracked ivory. Over the last 20 or 30 years bride price ivory from the eastern islands has found its way into the hands of carvers in Jawa and Bali and the resultant product when patinated is indistinguishable from a genuine old carving. I believe the gandar to be old, because timoho of this quality simply is not available now --- at least not in my experience. The pendok also looks like older work.

The hilt is current era, and appears to be very good work.

The blade is old, and I could not argue against Lombok as place of origin. It is an Eastern Islands style, but I would accept Lombok as place of origin, in the absence of firm evidence of origin in another place, and as with most keris, I doubt that such evidence will exist.

Based upon what I can see in the photos I would accept this as a Lombok keris, and as one of quite nice overall quality.

Mamat Lombok · 23rd November 2009, 04:58 PM

Dear forum ,
i think i have to say THANK YOU very much to all of you for the comments.
the blade look like bugis to me,but it just look alike,and i stil say it's LOMBOK.
hilt made of new ivory (elephant) .
also the pendhok is new made (gold)
the only old parts of them are : front wood (penyejer;timoho wood) and warangka (elephant ivory).
thank you.
regards,
mamat

Paul B. · 6th December 2019, 01:13 PM

Old topic but I'd like to join in because I have seen several (Bali) wrangka's with this brown striping (always back side) and wonder where this comes from?

Here is another poor quality pic I have found.

Jean · 6th December 2019, 02:38 PM

IMO this dark strip occurs because the carver used the outer rim of the elephant tusk which is more prone to decay especially on the back side which is in contact with the skin (traditional Balinese wear high in the back) or clothes. It may disappear or fade by applying a tooth whitening agent.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 6th December 2019, 07:31 PM

Yes Jean, it is the outer "skin" of the tusk, or at least this is what I have been told by carvers in both Solo and Bali.

Jean · 6th December 2019, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Jean, it is the outer "skin" of the tusk, or at least this is what I have been told by carvers in both Solo and Bali.

Thank you Alan. This is very detrimental to the aspect of the wrangka, can it be corrected without having to sand it according to your experience?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 7th December 2019, 01:35 AM

Jean, my experience in this area is nil.

However, my uninformed opinion is that if we were to try to sand it out, we would destroy the flow of the wrongko, this darkness is on the reverse side of the atasan anyway; personally, I don't think it looks too bad. I'd simply accept it as a feature of the particular keris, neither desirable nor undesirable.

Jean · 7th December 2019, 10:36 AM

Thank you Alan. If I ever face such a situation, I would try to whiten the ivory by applying a concentrated hydrogen peroxyde solution.
Regards

GIO · 7th December 2019, 05:28 PM

IMVHO the hilt is not ivory but buffalo horn. The tranlucent aspect occurs frequently in such material. A hilt with same material and very similar color was shown recently on ebay. As to the origin I think that Lombok is an acceptable option.

David · 7th December 2019, 07:01 PM

I agree GIO. Though the photos are not very good to begin with it doesn't look much like ivory to be despite Mamat Lombak's insistence that it is. Not sure he is still around to clarify his comments though. I still find this a lovely ensemble and would be satisfied to call it Lombok as well.

Paul B. · 8th December 2019, 03:29 PM

The brown deteriorated colour is a good age sign or is the conclusion to easy as a wrangka could also be made of an old piece of ivory but recently carved ?

GIO · 8th December 2019, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

The brown deteriorated colour is a good age sign or is the conclusion to easy as a wrangka could also be made of an old piece of ivory but recently carved ?

I think that the brown stripe has nothing to do with age. It was certainly already present in the exterior layer of ivory when the poor elephant was still alive.

Rick · 8th December 2019, 07:34 PM

I wonder if the carvers are using Mastodon ivory at all these days.

21st November 2009, 11:11 AM	#1
Mamat Lombok Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: lombok-indonesia Posts: 66	keris for comment hi all.... i want to share this for comment, regards, mamat. Attached Images

21st November 2009, 10:01 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	May be I am completely wrong, but if there are this spelling (very comfortable) Bali/Lombok blade (in which this blade certainly doesn't fall), there must be also Lombok/Sumbawa and Lombok/Sumbawa/Bugis. Lombok and Sumbawa has ties also after Mojopahit and Gelgel, which are Bugis and Selaparang. I think there could be a possibility, a keris with such characteristics would appear in Lombok (even more in Sumbawa). (I would also like to ask somebody with greater experience (so everybody) about Madura influence on Bugis blades and blades from Sumatra, Lombok and Sumbawa ) Last edited by Gustav; 21st November 2009 at 11:15 PM.

6th December 2019, 01:13 PM	#8
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Old topic but I'd like to join in because I have seen several (Bali) wrangka's with this brown striping (always back side) and wonder where this comes from? Here is another poor quality pic I have found. Attached Images

21st November 2009, 04:59 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Mamat, at the first view a attractive keris! But the blade seems to be not a Bali/Lombok keris blade. And the handle I think is a new but a very nice carving. I don't think that the handle is old because I miss the typical cracks you see normally by ivory. What kind of ivory is the handle? Best, Detlef

21st November 2009, 09:22 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Looks like some kind of semi precious stone .

22nd November 2009, 12:07 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	It appears to be generally accepted that there is a wide variety in blade styles that originate from the island of Lombok. These blades styles are in accordance with the origins of the racial group living on Lombok, from which the blades originate. The major racial groups living on Lombok are Balinese, Bugis, or Javanese, thus, we can have blade styles that are Balinese, Bugis, or Javanese. However, these blade styles are often expressed in a uniquely Lombok fashion, and they do often tend towards extreme stylistic espression which sees flamboyant pamor motifs where they logically should not be, and blade styles that contain elements that seem to be out of place or gauche. The examples I have seen of this type of thing remind me of a child playing with an art that he does not understand, and striving to make it as eyecatching as possible. In respect of this keris, what I think I can see is an old wrongko, at least the gandar is old, the atasan may not be, in spite of the cracked ivory. Over the last 20 or 30 years bride price ivory from the eastern islands has found its way into the hands of carvers in Jawa and Bali and the resultant product when patinated is indistinguishable from a genuine old carving. I believe the gandar to be old, because timoho of this quality simply is not available now --- at least not in my experience. The pendok also looks like older work. The hilt is current era, and appears to be very good work. The blade is old, and I could not argue against Lombok as place of origin. It is an Eastern Islands style, but I would accept Lombok as place of origin, in the absence of firm evidence of origin in another place, and as with most keris, I doubt that such evidence will exist. Based upon what I can see in the photos I would accept this as a Lombok keris, and as one of quite nice overall quality.

23rd November 2009, 04:58 PM	#7
Mamat Lombok Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: lombok-indonesia Posts: 66	Dear forum , i think i have to say THANK YOU very much to all of you for the comments. the blade look like bugis to me,but it just look alike,and i stil say it's LOMBOK. hilt made of new ivory (elephant) . also the pendhok is new made (gold) the only old parts of them are : front wood (penyejer;timoho wood) and warangka (elephant ivory). thank you. regards, mamat

6th December 2019, 02:38 PM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	IMO this dark strip occurs because the carver used the outer rim of the elephant tusk which is more prone to decay especially on the back side which is in contact with the skin (traditional Balinese wear high in the back) or clothes. It may disappear or fade by applying a tooth whitening agent. Regards

6th December 2019, 07:31 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yes Jean, it is the outer "skin" of the tusk, or at least this is what I have been told by carvers in both Solo and Bali.

7th December 2019, 01:35 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Jean, my experience in this area is nil. However, my uninformed opinion is that if we were to try to sand it out, we would destroy the flow of the wrongko, this darkness is on the reverse side of the atasan anyway; personally, I don't think it looks too bad. I'd simply accept it as a feature of the particular keris, neither desirable nor undesirable.

7th December 2019, 10:36 AM	#13
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan. If I ever face such a situation, I would try to whiten the ivory by applying a concentrated hydrogen peroxyde solution. Regards

7th December 2019, 05:28 PM	#14
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	IMVHO the hilt is not ivory but buffalo horn. The tranlucent aspect occurs frequently in such material. A hilt with same material and very similar color was shown recently on ebay. As to the origin I think that Lombok is an acceptable option.

7th December 2019, 07:01 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	I agree GIO. Though the photos are not very good to begin with it doesn't look much like ivory to be despite Mamat Lombak's insistence that it is. Not sure he is still around to clarify his comments though. I still find this a lovely ensemble and would be satisfied to call it Lombok as well.

8th December 2019, 03:29 PM	#16
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	The brown deteriorated colour is a good age sign or is the conclusion to easy as a wrangka could also be made of an old piece of ivory but recently carved ?

8th December 2019, 07:34 PM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I wonder if the carvers are using Mastodon ivory at all these days.