Ebay UK ban sale of "samarai swords"

[spiral]

Just saw this.....


.................................................. .....
02 April, 2008 | 12:52PM BST


The UK Government recently decided to ban the sale, manufacture, hire and import of samurai swords. While there are some exceptions to this general ban, we don’t think it’s practical to enforce a policy based on these.

The sale of samurai swords on eBay.co.uk will therefore be completely prohibited when the new law comes into effect on 6th April.

Regards,

The eBay Team
.............................................

So although it sounds a rather unclear announcment, I guess a lot of sellers And buyers of any curved swords from England will be having problims listing or buying them in futre.

Apparently the new English sword ban law will probably be adapted to also include all straight swords with 18 inch blades by October.

Spiral

[kronckew]

i feel safer already

yet another law that will prevent not one crime, or inconvenience one crook, but will end a hobby i enjoy for no benefit. the sheeple will think the socialists are on top of crime & doing something and it makes a good five minute sound bite for the news before they move onto implementing the next restriction on our freedoms, mandatory ID cards - papieren bitte oder arbeiter kampfen.

[TVV]

Who buys Japanese swords on eBay anyway? I mean, real nihon-to, not the "exquisite rosewood warrior japanese samurai housecarl katana".

[kronckew]

the law does not ban samurai swords, 'samurai' is never mentioned, they are exempt. it only bans curved swords over 50cm. from being sold, loaned, or traded 'unless made in japan before 1954 or made in japan by traditional methods' - with 'traditional methods undefined. as shin gunto and military 'samurai swrords were mass produced machine made junk in ww2, i guess they're 'traditional made' so junk samurai swords are still legal as long as they are shipped in from japan. like our cars. nothing made in europe or britain, or anywhere else in the world is legal. tojo is laughing in his grave...

and ebay is covering it's butt. it's not the 'who buys nihonto on ebay' it's the trade in old non-japanese swords found in attics, the old klewangs and dha's and indian tulwars, shamshirs and saifs in peoples attics, the old french sabre great great grandpa brought back from waterloo that can no longer be traded on ebay, or in shops or at shows & they will likely be thrown into the bin and lost forever...

you can buy them from an 'approved' dealer if you belong to an approved martial arts association or a re-enactment association and can prove it to the dealer who will record all the details. the govt. can then in future know who's house to goto to confiscate them when they feel like it, like the mayor of new orleans did after the hurricane. just being a 'collector' is insufficient. the value of any swords i have now is basically gone from a fair amount to nil with no compensation and for no purpose other than to make our govt. look good.


"the right to buy weapons is the right to be free" -a.e. van vogt

[dennee]

Glad they haven't gotten to straight swords yet.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by kronckew

....the value of any swords i have now is basically gone from a fair amount to nil with no compensation and for no purpose other than to make our govt. look good.

Do not count your losses yet, my friend. The effect on the value of your collection can be quite positive, AS LONG AS DEMAND IS PRESENT. And it is the case now, and will be for a long while. Banning these swords from ebay, etc will NOT decrease their high demand and interest. Just look at the lessons of prohibition era, not even mentioning the drug industry

[spiral]

I agree Kronckew, essentialy our swords are worth infinatly less than they were, , accept in illegal sales, but without ebay they are just worth local village junk shop England prices , not international world market prices.

Sadly I doubt if the Torys would do it differently, they all just run the country for their own ends & those of there mates, they just play with the population & newspapers etc. But I digress.

But as I said in this thread...
linky...


"If you live in "Blighty" "land of the free" & want a longish curved blade youve got 8 weeks to get it."

I would now add to that statement , it seems likley that if you want a longish straight blade in or from England you've got 6 months left to get it, {or sell it if you dont want it.}

Luckily I took my own advice. But theres still some pieces I would have liked that I will probably never own.

I think this law should have been introduced yesterday, Aprill fools day would have been a suitible timing.

Spiral

[Battara]

More stupidity by the hour!

I wonder what this will do to Scottish dirks and baskethilts?

[dennee]

For safety's sake (after all, think of the children!), I think the goverment ought to be encouraging folks to get those dangerous pointy things out of the UK entirely. You may PM me for my shipping address!

[Gavin Nugent]

If you want to sell them let me know too.

I have read though, if you can't afford the airfair out of England to relocate, the old English law still states(I beleive) that the penalty for defacing a bridge in the locality of Cornwall is deportation to Australia. Our doors are open!!!

Although many people find ebay of use to dispose of said items it is unfortunate that that avenue has been closed, I do however think you will find that law will be permitting the export of these prohibited item from their shores with no repercussions much like Australian state laws. Although I cannot own certain illegal items in my state, the irony is that if I did own one (illegally for want of a better word) and was posting it to an international destination there is no problems or avenue for prosecution, just get it off our shores is all that matters.

Ebay aside, as mentioned in a previous thread that this law is an ammendment and no one has yet posted the full guidelines of the current law that this ammendment concerns.
As Ashoka stated "Antique swords over 100 years old are exempt. For clarification the chap fielding enquiries is Jonathon Batt tel: 0207 0351807 who should be able to answer any queries."

Again this does not concern ebay at all but it should stop some of the panic from collectors, oh hang on, panic!! Panic!!! We want you swordsover here!!!!

regards

Gav

[spiral]

Originally Posted by freebooter

, I do however think you will find that law will be permitting the export of these prohibited item from their shores with no repercussions much like Australian state laws.

Sadley the law wasnt written by someone who followed your thoughts!

Thats Only for licensced dealers in the UK, not ordinary people. Sale or transfer of post 1908 curved swords with 50cm blades,will be illegal from Sunday for private individuals.

If you read the ammendants suggested in the Lords a couple of weeks ago you woud cry or laugh.

There nothing to panic about, it just ends a lot of collectors refining or adding to thier collections over the years. Or selling them when times are hard to recoup some funds etc.



Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

What is the basic low down devoid of any emotional outrage of this act in relation to a small time collector? Buying? Selling? Will ebay still be a venue to sell/buy 100year? old antique swords? Can anybody come up with the stated facts? So far I gather pre 1908 should be no problem? I think nearly all ethnographic will now be described with certainty as 19th century. The market will be affected. With less sales on ebay, the dealers that sell face to face may benefit hugely? I think for some it will work in there favour. I doubt prices will go down on good condition stuff anyway, just gain in age.

[Tim Simmons]

Sorry to go on about this. I have been searching for simple clear information on this matter. Please correct me if I am wrong; even post 1908 bladed weapons ww1 ww2 stuff? can still be purchased from licensed dealers? presumably one would also be able to sell to such licensed dealers. This I think will also be inflationary. Some dealers will be on a good thing. Perhaps why we do not hear from them?

[Mark]

Here is a link to official info on the draft law, including the text. It is short, yet vague (typical). It really looks the average collector is pretty much screwed.

[eftihis]

Well, the situation is really bad, but does someone knows how this will affect somebody sending swords/daggers through the post office?
Because customs in Greece are a pain (you have to prove after lengthy procedures that what you revceive is antique) i sent all my purchases from the states to UK. (From there there was no probles sending to Greece since there are no customs between EU countries) Untill now, UK as a civilised nation had no problem when a sword arrived. So what will happen with the swords that will come in to my friends address in the UK, and will he be able to send them to me to Greece after the 6th of April?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

So far I gather pre 1908 should be no problem? I think nearly all ethnographic will now be described with certainty as 19th century. The market will be affected. With less sales on ebay, the dealers that sell face to face may benefit hugely? I think for some it will work in there favour. I doubt prices will go down on good condition stuff anyway, just gain in age.

I think ebays rule & policing of the act will evolve over time as it has with inert grenades,ivory, etc.

Some licensed dealers will be able to sell post 1908 weapons to theartre companys, film crews, & insured martial artists. {It ok to have a lethal weapon if you train in fighting with it! }


i hate to be the profit of doom but after reading hansard etc. it is going to get worse... & soon. forewarned can be forarmed! {no pun intended! } Heres somes exerts.....
..........................................
Earl Attlee: I agree with everything that has been said by noble Lords, but I am curious about the curved blade. I am slightly anxious that it would be possible to import a batch of swords with straight blades, which would fall outside the provisions, and then, by a simple and well understood engineering process—putting them through a roller—cause the blades to bend. I do not understand why all long blades are not banned. I can foresee people importing straight blades and making them curved.

.................................................. ..


Lord West of Spithead: I thank noble Lords for those valid points. I hope I will be able to answer them all, and I appreciate the views. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, mentioned, correctly, that the definition does not pick up cheap ninja swords, which are straight, and that it touches slightly on krises. I remember reading about krises in the Wizard years ago in a story about a chap in Borneo. They are unpleasant, sharp, double-sided knives. In my initial speech, I tried to put across that the intention is to try to pick on ninja swords, which are very attractive to some young people. They watch films such as “Kill Bill” and think it is frightfully clever to have them to show off with.

.................................................. ..

The noble Earl made a point about bending sword blades, and he is right that that can be done. We shall have to keep looking at this, and perhaps at some time in the future we shall say that any blade over 50 centimetres—which is long—should be banned. At the moment, it is difficult to do that.

.................................


So with idiots like this adding there imput it just will get worse.

They are aiming to ban more in october & they are not inviting an consultations about it.

The Wizard I think was a comic? but Earl Atttlees" by a simple and well understood engineering process—putting them through a roller—cause the blades to bend" is hysterical! He obviosly a bit of an engineer! But the Goverments man agrreeed with him!


Spiral

Hansard link... linky...

[Tim Simmons]

In ten years time, there will be lots of very expensive ww1 {German curved}swords on the market. You might be able to get one from a dealer but waiting ten years will probably be cheaper.

All this bending nonsense from Lord F+++wits just show the subtle, insidious them and us aspect to the structure of the UK. Something I do not think our cousins across the water really understand.

[Kate]

People - would you say this was "made in Japan at any time according to traditional methods of forging swords".??

This is not a new "made in China" item!


Overall length - 46"

Blade length - 34"

Hilt - bound with brown cord, a bit of damage near the hilt, brass end cap

Blade - heavy quality steel with applied silvery scrolling, including a stylised dragons head. Fitted onto the hilt with a copper/ brass fitting. Single edge, hatchet point.

Scabbard - wood covered with shagreen, sharkskin finish, part stained tan, part green.This has one or two little knocks where the finish is chipped. It could be laquer.

Tsuba - 3", in copper, with a stylised bird, peacock, swan?

I thought that "collectors arms" would be exempt - but this is the full text of the Act-
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/dra...110810324_en_1

I dread to think what this means for my collection of 19th/20th century cavalry swords!!
Opinions gratefully received!

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you Kate. Very helpful the plain facts. As far as I can read a collector falls into no5. If you are to wave a sword around outside of an antique market or militaria fair, it might be difficult to use paragraph 5 as defence. Perhaps things are not so bad. The shock of the new law will of course be missread and turn many people off from having anything to do with swords. I still feel the prices will go up.

[spiral]

Tim, Read it again,

5. For the purposes of paragraph 4—

“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;

“insurance” means a contract of insurance or other arrangement made for the purpose of indemnifying a person or persons named in the contract or under the arrangement;

“permitted activity” means an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity;

“sporting activity” means the practising of a sport which requires the use of a weapon described in paragraph 1(r);

“third parties” includes participants in, and spectators of, a permitted activity and members of the public.
.................................................. ...................


If you see anything there that allows collecting, please point it out to me...

There isnt.... Unless your martial arts, reanacment or theatrical.... as i already pointed out.

But perhaps I missed something? How do you read it? Whats the missreading?


Guess you wernt one of the pistol shooters years ago... Ive been thrugh a varient of this all before.

Wishfull thinking doesnt work with politicians or Mr.Plod.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Call me a barrack room lawyer. The first paragraph of section 5, antique collecting, illustrates the conduct of the past. People will freak out but the dealers know this.

[asomotif]

I dread to think what this means for my collection of 19th/20th century cavalry swords!!

Cavalry sword collections get limited to the 1908 pattern troopers sword

But seriously

I really simpatise with our british collectors.
This stupid law reminds me of the dutch campaign against arms in 1990.
Many klewangs / keris and other ''weapons'' where delivered to police stations by retired militairy men and concerned housewifes.
Luckely they made a very wide excemption for weapons that are clearly part of a collection. If you hang a single (straight or bended) sword on your wall it is considered a collection. (don't take it out in the yard to practice some kill Bill techniques, that will probably make it illegal again.)
Hopefully the Lords will come to their senses and make some changes to this law in order to make this law workable both for the collector and for the police and customs that will have to enforce it.

The people making these laws should really take a closer look on reality.
The way they are thinking now the logical path will lead to banning all knives and the introduction of chopsticks...

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Call me a barrack room lawyer. The first paragraph of section 5, antique collecting, illustrates the conduct of the past. People will freak out but the dealers know this.

Its an argument worth arguing Tim I agree. Personaly I think it covers Reenactors & registered museams. But I hope I am wrong. {sadley doubt it though having read reams od commons & lords papers on it over the last year.

Personly I think the big dealers will do ok & the small collectors & dealers will not.

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hopefully the Lords will come to their senses and make some changes to this law in order to make this law workable both for the collector and for the police and customs that will have to enforce it.

The people making these laws should really take a closer look on reality.
The way they are thinking now the logical path will lead to banning all knives and the introduction of chopsticks...

Sadley Its a law to pretend they are doing something about crime, to appease the over 50s who vote & the newspapers who the over 50s read rather than anything to do with realitys of life.

Spiral

[kronckew]

para 5a only applies if you meet the burden of proof requirement which includes having the required public liability insurance and meeting the documentation requirements to prove you are a member of one of the approved exemption groups. ie you must be a paid up and participating card carrying martial artist or reenactor or actor participating in a govt. approved and insured display or play as part of a govt. approved organization.

these arguments may eventually get you out of your cell, but when the cop pinches your shoulder and says "oi - mate whats that in yer bag?", it's going in their nice damp lockup to rust away while you go in their nice damp lockup to rust away until maybe you get your lawyer to spring you (and with a lot of luck, your sword). start spouting the law to the police and they'll just say 'save it for the judge, we don't make the law, we just enforce it'. hope y'all can afford the expense to prove you meet the exception rules. the lawyers (inc. those politicians who are mostly lawyers), will be laughing all the way to the bank.

do you want to be the one setting any future precedents?

[Tim Simmons]

Good morning.

Only being bit of a dabbler when it comes to collecting I do not know much about dealing. I would have thought that the organisers and owners of hired venues which hold militaria and antique events, will have the paperwork in place to satisfy all this.

“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;
“insurance” means a contract of insurance or other arrangement made for the purpose of indemnifying a person or persons named in the contract or under the arrangement;
“permitted activity” means an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity;
“sporting activity” means the practising of a sport which requires the use of a weapon described in paragraph 1(r);
“third parties” includes participants in, and spectators of, a permitted activity and members of the public.

[spiral]

Well the offensive & banned weapons law has been around a long time.

Post 1908 swords with curved blades of 50cm or more will be illegal as flicknives, butterfly knives, knuckle knives etc. {straight blades Oct. 2008.}

They will be listed in that same law section.

As Krockew says Trying to tell policmen , "its ok i collect them" is not realy going to work at the time.

One doesnt notice generaly notice massive trade in them even as antiques in the UK or see them shown at many fairs etc.

Sadley with Ethnographic pieces its hard to prove whether they are pre. or post 1908, & with this law the burden of proof of defense is with the sword owner.

Spiral

[katana]

I think generally, we are all agreed that this 'new' law seems to be 'politically' motivated.....to show the population that measures are being taken for their 'safety'. The law amendment seems very vague and ill conceived, there seems to be little input from independent experts or associations etc. that collect or use swords in their pastime or sport.

The strange thing for me ..is the increase in 'gun' related crime which is not being addressed with such 'force'

I personally feel, that this situation has been greatly 'aided' by the import of the cheap 'Samurai' swords from China. These 'flooded' the market and were readily 'available' on eBay.... with claims that the blades were 'surgical steel' ..'functional' ..'battle ready' ...etc
With the popularity of 'martial art' films recently, showing 'katana's in action' impressionable teenagers were buying these in great numbers.
Unfortunately 'impressionable' politicians seemed to have believed the 'hype' ......these cheap 'knock-offs' are 'sword' like ...in reality they are cheap and useless... the blades often snap off the poorly welded tang and 'fly off' potentially hitting anyone in the general vicinity.....so you could argue that they are dangerous

Unfortunately, the concerns of knife crime, cheap Chinese wall hangers, eBay and the recent film hype of the 'Japanese' sword have all combined in recent times........ I feel we are victims of circumstance .

[Yannis]

As Eftihis said before a ban in UK will affect other countries too.

I wish you can find a solution. Maybe you can try a club of collectors or other collective action.

I wonder what will happen to all these fine auction houses who have plan auctions in the near future in UK. What will happen to the famous Arms Fair?

Anyway to those who concern I have a solution in Swap Forum. Just think on it.

===Editing====

I think I misunderstood the law. It affects only 1908 and later swords? Who will confirm the age? It is probably the same trap we are here in Greece!

[BBJW]

It is hard to believe this law is actually real. Thank God in the United States we have the Second Amendment... "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". I've told people about this new law in the U.K. and they think I'm joking.

Sympathies
bbjw

[Rick]

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883

No flames please .