Bicol dagger for comment

[Sajen]

You know my interest in Bicolano blades, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=bicol
So I was glad to add today a Bicol dagger (at least I think it is) to my collection. The dagger is 11,5 " long with a blade from 6 5/8". Sadly it's missing the scabbard.
Like usual all comments are welcome.

[Ian]

Hi Detlef:

Apart from the carved dog (arso ?) head on the hilt there is little else to suggest a Bicol origin to me. The blade actually looks of European or US manufacture rather than Philippines, and the hilt (apart from dog's head) does not remind me of other bicolano knives.

Your example does not seem like a typical itak from Bicol. Perhaps a composite from a number of unrelated pieces?

Ian

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Detlef:

Apart from the carved dog (arso ?) head on the hilt there is little else to suggest a Bicol origin to me. The blade actually looks of European or US manufacture rather than Philippines, and the hilt (apart from dog's head) does not remind me of other bicolano knives.

Your example does not seem like a typical itak from Bicol. Perhaps a composite from a number of unrelated pieces?

Ian

Hi Ian,

thank you for comment. I based my attribution by the inaso hilt from horn. But agree with you that the blade seems to be a recycled US blade. Also the unusual eyes from screws (?) of Western manufacture let me think that this dagger seems to date from 1900-1945, maybe WWII area? For sure you are correct that it is not a typical Bicol dagger (BTW, how look a typical Bicol dagger? ). But again, would like to see more Bicol blades, sadly there is not much written/documented about Bicol blades. Think about how long it was needed to pin down the origin of the so called Minasbad, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...batangas+sword

Regards,
Detlef

[colin henshaw]

The carved head is a bit like that to be found on some North West Coast USA/Canada daggers (Tlingit).

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

The carved head is a bit like that to be found on some North West Coast USA/Canada daggers (Tlingit).

Hello Colin,

are you able to show examples?

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

The carved head is a bit like that to be found on some North West Coast USA/Canada daggers (Tlingit).

Interesting idea Colin, though i believe stylistically the Tlingit pommels are carved a bit differently. The rest of the hilt doesn't really look Tlingit and you very rarely see a cross guard on such daggers, especially one like this. Sorry that these images are so small Detlef, but they are all i could find on line. I think these my more likely represent bear, than dog in the Tlingit culture, which genetically are really just much larger dogs (canines).

[colin henshaw]

A few more...

[Sajen]

Hello David and Colin,

indeed a very interesting resemblance! Thank you both for posting the pictures but agree with David that the hilt of the dagger in question is different and have a more Bicol appearance, see this picture taken from the thread given in post #1. Attached also the handles from my Bicol sinampalok and the dinahong-palay from Barry.

[Robert]

I have to agree with Detlef on this piece being from Bicol. Whether or not it was made for a serviceman or a local who either acquired an American made blade and had it fitted with a local hilt or just had a dagger made with this style of blade the piece as a whole I believe is from Bicol. There are many transitional edged weapons from the Philippines that do not follow the style of the more traditional pieces that everyone tries to reference back to when looking to identify them. Many Luzon pieces are a perfect example of this. Some of the daggers show so much Spanish influence in their overall appearance that they can be hard to distinguish from true Spanish pieces. Then add in the fact that the Philippine people of the time would often use items salvaged from different sources in producing edged weapons. I have a dagger where the ferules were made from Chinese thimbles and the blade was either made from a tri-cornered bayonet blade or just made to look like one. Another is a gunong with a blade shaped like one from a talibong. One more has a blade in the shape of a minisbad, but a clenched fist hilt and a blind tang. I do not believe Detlefs piece to be traditional one (other than the hilt), but more of a transitional or one off piece. One of the biggest problems is one that Detlef has tried to point out. What do the different types of traditional Bicol edged weapons look like, how many styles are there and where do you find references to them?

Best,
Robert

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Robert

I have to agree with Detlef on this piece being from Bicol...

One of the biggest problems is one that Detlef has tried to point out. What do the different types of traditional Bicol edged weapons look like, how many styles are there and where do you find references to them?

Best,
Robert

Robert:

Surely you are contradicting yourself here. If there is no reliable evidence as to what the different types of traditional Bicol edged weapons look like, and no known references to them, how can one be confident that this knife is indeed from Bicol?

I have gone back to the threads referenced by Detlef, and there really is no solid evidence for any of the swords that he shows being from Bicol. The terms minasbad, sinampalok, and dinahong-palay also appear to have no firm basis.

The absence of clear data is a persistent problem, but I think we need to be careful to avoid making assertions that are not based on solid documentation or reliable sources. Otherwise we add to the existing confusion.

Cheers,

Ian.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

I have gone back to the threads referenced by Detlef, and there really is no solid evidence for any of the swords that he shows being from Bicol.

Hi Ian,

may I ask you what you understand as "solid basis"? When you mean an old written book where are shown such swords I am sure that we never will get such a solid basis. It's simple nothing written about Bicol blades.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

The terms minasbad, sinampalok, and dinahong-palay also appear to have no firm basis.

Ian,

we have in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=bicol some concurrent statements from Zel, Lorenz (The PepperSkull), Migueldiaz and Bankaya (all native Philippines) that the there shown blades are from Bicol and also conccurent statements about the names for this blades. But agree with the sentence Zel write me by mail " I wouldn't get too hung up with the exact name of the blade type." When we don't have old written documents we can take the words from "students" who have done some deep research IMHO. I think that the named persons are very reliable.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Excuse me that I will divagate short from the dagger in question.

My better half is a native Halmahera women (orang Halmahera) and I have visited Halmahera several times and married my wife there traditional. I have collected some swords on Halmahera. The name which was given me by concurrent statements from the natives is semarang. You will hardly find an other reliable solid basis for this name. Everybody can now decide byself if my word is a "reliable solid basis".

I think when we want to study ethnograhic weapons and can't find old written documents we need to believe credible statements from persons who have done some research.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

The terms minasbad, sinampalok, and dinahong-palay also appear to have no firm basis.

Hello Ian,

regarding the sword named minasbad, please have a look to this links:
1. http://baaohistoricalsociety.blogspo...tistry-in.html
2. http://www.fmapulse.com/content/fma-...marrones-bicol

Best regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Detlef, Thank you for posting these very informative links. I have been trying to locate them for the last 24 hours so I could do the same. I've got to change the way I file things away so I can actually find them when the need arises.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Robert

Detlef, Thank you for posting these very informative links. I have been trying to locate them for the last 24 hours so I could do the same. I've got to change the way I file things away so I can actually find them when the need arises.

Best,
Robert

Hello Robert,

you are not alone, it take some time for me as well to find these links. But remembered them very well because I've read them some time back.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Hello Detlef:

Thank you for your factual response to my questioning the origin of those terms. I have visited both the web sites you mention, and each does provide some information about minasbar. Here is how I look at information on the web (and information in general) to satisfy myself if it is reliable or has a "sound basis."

First, I am skeptical of much of the information provided online about edged weapons and here are some of my reasons:

• It is very difficult to know who actually wrote the material, where the pictures really came from and whether they have been Photoshopped or otherwise altered
• We rarely know the credentials/background of the person(s) putting this material online
• There is seldom any peer review of materials before they are published online (in contrast to publishers of scholarly articles and books, who have usually undertaken some vetting process of the author's work by obtaining second opinions from informed individuals)
• Even the so-called "experts" are wrong--auction catalogs, for example, are an inconsistent reference source and make too many mistakes in the attribution of ethnographic edged weapons
• Anyone can set up a website or blog, and make claims about edged weapons

The first link you provide is to the Baao Historical and Cultural Society site. The reference to minasbad is contained in an article entitled, The Minasbad: Utility and Artistry in a Bicolano blade, and this is attributed to an excerpt from Baao Vignettes by P.B. Robosa. I looked on Amazon and Abebooks for this work and found nothing. Then I googled "Baao Vignettes" and it sent me back to this same site as the only source for this material. Then I googled P.B. Robosa and found Paulix (Paulo Felix) B. Robosa of Baao, and here is how he describes himself on his blog (http://paulixrobosa.blogspot.com/):

"Paulo Felix Paulix B. Robosa, born 20, November 1965. Curator of the Museum of Baaoeno Memory, St. Monica Academy, Baao, Camarines sur. Faculty member, Universidad de Sta. Isabel College of Social Work and Arts and Sciences, teaching Chemistry and Biochemistry. Author of "A Guide to Arts, Crafts and Technology used in Teaching". Registered Medical Technologist, Diplomate in Science Teaching major in Biology."

This sounds impressive, but there is not much here to suggest he has any more than a passing knowledge of edged weapons. Also, we don't know who the members of the Baao Historical and Cultural Society may be--perhaps he is the sole member and is simply quoting himself through this web site! Who knows? (And that is a major problem with web-based materials--you just don't know). The St. Monica Academy and Universidad de Sta. Isabel College do exist in Baao, so he may well be legit.

So just what do we have here in terms of evidence. A local man from that culture publishes an essay about the local bolo which he calls a minasbar. One would think he should know what it is called, but objectively this is still hearsay evidence based on what he has been told in that place at that time and he is repeating it back to us. There are also some contemporary (?) pictures that appear to show the manufacture of these swords.

The second link you provided is a more scholarly and documented approach. The information cited by Perry Gil S. Mallari comes partly from a recently published book by Linda A. Newson, Conquest and Pestilence in the Early Spanish Philippines, (University of Hawaii Press, 2009). Here is the publisher's blurb about the book:

"Scholars have long assumed that Spanish colonial rule had only a limited demographic impact on the Philippines. Filipinos, they believed, had acquired immunity to Old World diseases prior to Spanish arrival; conquest was thought to have been more benign than what took place in the Americas because of more enlightened colonial policies introduced by Philip II. Conquest and Pestilence in the Early Spanish Philippines illuminates the demographic history of the Spanish Philippines in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries and, in the process, challenges these assumptions. In this provocative new work, Linda Newson convincingly demonstrates that the Filipino population suffered a significant decline in the early colonial period. Newson argues that the sparse population of the islands meant that Old World diseases could not become endemic in pre-Spanish times. She also shows that the initial conquest of the Philippines was far bloodier than has often been supposed and that subsequent Spanish demands for tribute, labor, and land brought socioeconomic transformations and depopulation that were prolonged beyond the early conquest years. Comparisons are made with the impact of Spanish colonial rule in the Americas. Newson adopts a regional approach and examines critically each major area in Luzon and the Visayas in turn. Building on a wide range of primary and secondary sources, she proposes a new estimate for the population of the Visayas and Luzon of 1.57 million in 1565 - slightly higher than that suggested by previous studies - and calculates that by the mid-seventeenth century this figure may have fallen by about two-thirds."

Professor Newson is a noted academic and lives in the UK where she is the Director of the Institute of Latin American Studies, University of London. Her biography can be found here: http://research.sas.ac.uk/search/sta...-linda-newson/.

However, in Millari's paragraph relating to the minasbad, there is no direct attribution of the information to Newson's work. In fact, we don't know from where he draws this information because he does not tell us. If it was from Newson's research based on original Spanish documents, then that seems like pretty solid historical evidence that the term minasbad had been in use for several centuries. If not, then we have an unsubstantiated statement that is not much help to us.

Do either of these sources provide a "solid basis" for calling this particular sword a minasbad and attributing it to Bicol? Objectively, I think they do not. What we might reasonably conclude, IMO, is that the sword is likely found in Camarines sur, a part of the Bicol region, and there it may be called a minasbad. This does not exclude the sword being found more widely in the Bicol Region or elsewhere, nor does it exclude the sword being called something else in Camarines sur or elsewhere.

With regard to the other terms you mentioned, I will respond about those in another post since this one is already quite long.

Ian.

[Sajen]

Hello Ian,

thank you very much for your well researched respond! And I agree with you in all points.

I think it's not only the problem by the "minasbad" but also by nearly all ethnograhic weapons to find a "solid basis" for a name for it. I only want to remember the term from Alan: "name game" which I like very much, collectors like to give their toys a name. We need to recognize that the same weapon can have different names in different regional parts of an island.

But I think we have a good quintessence already with this sentence from you: What we might reasonably conclude, IMO, is that the sword is likely found in Camarines sur, a part of the Bicol region, and there it may be called a minasbad. This does not exclude the sword being found more widely in the Bicol Region or elsewhere, nor does it exclude the sword being called something else in Camarines sur or elsewhere.
Everybody who is interested in swords from Luzon will know which sort of sword is meant when we call it "minasbad".

Best regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Hello again Detlef:

I want to address the other two terms that you mentioned in an earlier post on this thread: sinampalok and dinahong palay.

Before commenting, I should say that my knowledge of Tagalog is rudimentary and rusty. I spent ten years going back and forth to the Philippines in the 90s and early 00s, and spoke much better Tagalog then.

The word sinampalok appears to be derived from sampalok which means "tamarind" (the pod of which is used to flavor the national soup of the Philippines, sinigang). In Tagalog, if one wishes to say that something resembles something else, then one uses in as an infix (an infix being an insertion into the word, as compared to a suffix or prefix which would come after or before the word)--thus sinampalok would mean "resembling tamarind." The question is what part of the tamarind tree or its fruit are we resembling? Because Filipinos are most taken by the fruit of the tamarind, which come as pods, it seems reasonable to think sinampolok might mean "resembling a tamarind pod." Here is a picture of tamarind pods, but I'm not sure this nobbly elongated structure helps our discussion of swords



In the same manner, dinahong palay would mean resembling a dahong palay, and dahong palay translates to "rice leaf." The leaf of the rice plant is a long slender leaf of fairly uniform width, a central vein, and tapering to a point. Clearly, this could describe a slender spear-shaped blade of a sword. Here are pictures of rice leaves and a sword/knife that might meet that description.





There is an alternative translation for dahong palay that describes a certain type of venomous snake, most likely the green Philippines pit viper. This is a slim green snake with triangular head and also probably named for its resemblance to a rice leaf. Here is a picture of that snake.



What any of this might mean in relation to the swords you have shown is not very clear to me.

Lastly, with regard to what a Bicol knife might look like, we do have some pieces that have a town of manufacture stamped on them. The large belly, clipped blades from Iriga, Camarines Sur are a case in point and several are shown here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15018

Cheers,

Ian.

[Sajen]

Thank you Ian for the further remarks. I am not sure to which entent this will be helpful since the terms "sinampalok" and "dinahong palay" maybe Bicolano terms. Of course I am aware that Tagalog and Bicolano relative languages but it could be that a translation will be different.

Both terms was given in the thread you mentioned in your last post from Bangkaya like followed:
Though are a number of variations of blade style in Bicol, there are basically 4 prevalent types:

Minasbad
Dinahong-palay
Ginunting
Sinampalok

This was all explained to me by a panday from Tabaco, Albay in Bicol. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to take photos since I left my camera at my friends house (we were in search of pili nuts and just happened to run into the panday.) Most of the swords pictured on this thread are sinampalok or dinahong-palay (dahon palay in tagalog=rice leaf.) The minasbad is the long sword sometimes with an elaborate guard. The ginunting has a blade that is recurved but not hooked down like the modern Ilonggo or Marine Recon ginunting. The dinahong-palay and sinampalok are similar, however, the blade on the sinampalok tapers towards the hilt where the dinahong-palay maintains a constant width then abrubtly tapers usually with a hook like projection or goosenecks to the ricasso (much like a tinamban sansibar from Leyte.) As for the figural carving, he described this type seen on this thread as inaso or aso (dog) faced carving. The other figural style is called sawa which I believe is more of a crocodile or naga form.

And the term "sinampalok" was given to me also from Zel in the same thread by email like followed:
The type you have is I believed called a sinampalok....I don't have my notes with me right now. Sinampalok is term also used elsewhere in Luzon, but I've heard referred to this blade type in Bicol. I wouldn't get too hung up with the exact name of the blade type. There are hundreds of different blade types in the Philippines and the same blade can have different names even in the same region. What's important is that it's from Bicol...but it's not a minasbad.

Now, when you have a look to the shown sword in post #16, same thread, it has the same blade shape like from two of my swords from my other thread regarding Bicol blades/swords.
Now you will understand maybe better why I believe that my swords from Bicol as well.

That my dagger in question could be a Bicol dagger I based in fact only by the handle carving (inaso) which seems to be very typical for Bicol, look for example the ear carving. All seems by this dagger originally long together thus I believe it was worked there. Of course it seems to be a atypical blade form, maybe worked on request or with a recycled US blade, who knows?

Regards,
Detlef

PS: Just see by rereading that Bangkaya give the same translation for dahon palay like you!

[Ian]

Hi Detlef:

I am fairly certain that sinampalok and dinahong palay are Tagalog in origin, and I cannot find either of those terms in two online Bicolano-English dictionaries. The word ginunting is also Tagalog; it means "resembling scissors" or "resembling shears" with the grammatical construction being similar to the other two terms (gunting meaning "scissors" or "shears"). The only term for which I am unable to find a Tagalog translation is minasbad and it could be an old Bicolano word although it does not appear in the online Bicolano dictionaries. We need help from a native Bicolano to sort that out.

As far as drawing conclusions based on the hilt style (as defined for the minasbad) that we think is associated with Camarines sur and saying this is limited to the Bicol Region, that is a big extrapolation based on the available data. I think you would agree that the distribution of this hilt style is unknown. Based on the available data, the aso hilt could be limited to just the Camarines sur or it could extend more widely in the Bicol Region and even beyond to, say, the eastern Visayas (Samar, Leyte, Cebu). Indeed, the sword shown in post #16 of the thread you reference could easily be classified as a Visayan pinuti or sansibar with its long narrow pointed blade, chisel edge, and blind tang construction.

Based on the evidence gathered to date, it seems to me that the most we can say about edged weapons/tools having an aso hilt or exhibiting the minasbad style of sword is that these are consistent with examples coming from Camarines sur, and might be found more widely in other areas of the Bicol Region or in nearby areas of the Visayas. There may even be overlap of these weapons/tools to the north of Bicol in traditional Tagalog areas.

The usual way to research these questions is to read historical documents, scholarly accounts, the writings of travelers in previous centuries, and search out contemporary local sources. For various reasons we are having problems finding those resources. I think the way forward is, to coin an American term, to have boots on the ground. And not just anybody doing the investigation. It needs experienced investigators working with local informants. As my anthropology colleagues frequently tell me, "half of what informants report is wrong and the other half is misleading"--take what you are told with a grain of salt and verify everything using as many sources as possible.

Such investigation takes time and money. Fortunately, I will soon have time to do some of this work because I am retiring today! The money, however, may be a limiting factor (as well as my wife). The Bicol region is not high on my list of places to visit, but I hope to get there in the next 3-5 years.

Cheers,

Ian.

[colin henshaw]

The blade on Sajen's knife looks like it could be from a US/European fighting knife (see image), or a re-worked bayonet ??

Regards.

[Sajen]

Hi Ian,

first, congratulations that you have your working time behind you! I still have some years in front.
Agree with the most you have written. Hope that we in future get more informations about Bicol blades, it seems to be one of the most unknown areas by Philippine weapons.

I wish you and all others a prosperous and healthy New Year,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

The blade on Sajen's knife looks like it could be from a US/European fighting knife (see image), or a re-worked bayonet ??

Hello Colin,
this assumption seems to be a good one. The other alternative would be that a local blacksmith had copied such a blade.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Just looking through some older threads and came across post #5 by steeldust on this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15388

"These photos are of a Dahong Palay (rice leaf) from the town of Tabaco, in Bicol, Philippines. The blade is 17" and the "tabak" was made this year. The scabbard is tied with mono filament fishing line instead of cordage. Thickness of the spine at the handle is 4.5 mm. The short sword weighs 16 oz."

The pictures are here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...chmentid=86499
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...chmentid=86500

Without the clear attribution from steeldust, I would not have identified this as coming from Bicol. The knife itself looks all Tagalog to me. BTW, I think the classification of this knife as a dahong palay strays quite a long way from the literal meaning of the term, and again points to the frustration (and futility?) of trying to be precise with our terminology.

Ian.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Just looking through some older threads and came across post #5 by steeldust on this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15388[indent]"These photos are of a Dahong Palay (rice leaf) from the town of Tabaco, in Bicol, Philippines. The blade is 17" and the "tabak" was made this year. The scabbard is tied with mono filament fishing line instead of cordage. Thickness of the spine at the handle is 4.5 mm. The short sword weighs 16 oz."


Without the clear attribution from steeldust, I would not have identified this as coming from Bicol. The knife itself looks all Tagalog to me. BTW, I think the classification of this knife as a dahong palay strays quite a long way from the literal meaning of the term, and again points to the frustration (and futility?) of trying to be precise with our terminology.

Ian.

Agree, nothing would let me think that this blade coming from Bicol, the scabbard maybe a little bit. Vexing is also that steeldust used two different terms for one sword. Would be interesting if both terms was given to him from the seller. Here we have again the "name game". But it would be great already when we would be able to tell from where a blade has it's origin.

Regards,
Detlef