A Rajput with his sword

[Jens Nordlunde]

Here you see a Rajput with his sword, it is from a book called A history of Rajasthan by Rima Hooja - 1246 pages! The picture is said to have been take about 1960.

[Emanuel]

Hello Jens,

This is an instructive picture, the pommel disk is very similar to the disk on one of my tulwars. It's been discussed before and the consensus was that it was possibly from Rajasthan.
Thank you for it.

Emanuel

- I am posting the picture from CollectingNewbie, as I haven't taken new pictures yet.

[Jim McDougall]

Since the thread on Fernando's tulwar has brought up the tulwars of the Rajputs, I found this earlier post by Jens most interesting. The idea of the significance of decorative motif within the pommel makes me wonder if this one might suggest solar symbolism.
As I noted on the other thread, the three basic Rajput lines were said to descend from the Hindu gods of sun, moon and fire.

Gentlemen, please bring out the tulwars and lets see the pommel discs!
Also, we need to know more about the size of the discs. Some are exceedingly large.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim and Jens (I hope you had a great trip).

I don't have much to add to this thread, but, I thought I would post this postcard that was on e-bay awhile ago. Maybe it can add to someones knowledge, who knows?

All the best,
Jeff

[Jeff D]

I forgot about this one as well. The caption at the bottom is "RAJPOOTS"

[galvano]

hi all
with heavy blade

[Lew]

Here are a few warriors.

Lew

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Here are a few warriors.

Lew

Lew,

I was amazed by the price these two pictures brought on eBay. I seem to remember it was in excess of $5,000 USD.

I wonder what they have been smoking to have glittering eyes like that? Spooky!

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Gentlemen, please bring out the tulwars and lets see the pommel discs!
Also, we need to know more about the size of the discs. Some are exceedingly large.

not exceptional at all, find in Jeddah K.S.A some 25 years ago
in souk for antics near airport,
stored between cupboard and wall
every things was repainted during a refurbishing, imagine
diameter of pommel ± 2,75'

à +

Dom

[Lew]

Three of mine.

Lew

[Bill M]

A few more

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much guys for the outstanding response!!!
Does it not seem like many of the pommel decorative motifs reflect various suggestions of solar symbolism?
I notice that many of the Rajput associated tulwars have a vestigial extension from the pommel which seems reminiscent of those on the khanda, another sword form key to the Rajputs. The khanda is also key to the Sikhs, often closely associated with Rajputs, both effectively noted for forms of sword worship.

Lew and Bill, I think those Sikh photos, or some very similar, are found in the book "Warrior Saints" by P. Singh. The elaborately decorated turban is difficult to forget.

It seems that the earlier tulwar hilts tend to have smaller pommel discs, the larger forms of 19th c.

I do not have my trusty Pant at hand. Can anyone possibly post the illustrations of the varied tulwar hilt forms suggested by Pant?

All best regards,
Jim

[Bill M]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4071

Unfortunately these eBay auctions have expired. But I remember these pictures selling for over $5000 and another, similar set selling for $2000 plus. I'd like to find the book you mention, Jim.

Here are the other two pictures sold by the same seller

[CourseEight]

I thought I'd add mine, since no one has posted one like it yet. Oddly enough I didn't realize what was being represented until this post. Thanks kai!

Could be a sun on the inner part too. Two for the price of one?

--Radleigh

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I do not have my trusty Pant at hand. Can anyone possibly post the illustrations of the varied tulwar hilt forms suggested by Pant?

All best regards,
Jim

Jim, I would like to find a copy of "Warrior Saints," By Singh, if you have any leads. Google turned up nothing.

I'll look in my Pants and see what I can find.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Bill,
I acquired this book a number of years ago and I believe was acquiring it from the author, Parmjidt Singh, who was actually the co-author. I do not have the book at hand and cannot recall the other author. It is a great book that is primarily lots of great illustrations, those I believe included (at least they do look very familiar). I think trying the British Amazon might help as it was published in London.

Thanks very much everyone for the great responses and sharing more examples. Hopefully we can get some groupings and consistancies going. I am hoping that someone with Pant could post the several variations he has assigned so that we might use these as a benchmark. Although the terminology may or may not be accurately applied, it is the only attempt to standardize Indian tulwars hilts typologically and does serve well in that regard.

I am still unclear on the pommel dish size, and it seems that it has been suggested that larger forms are essentially later, c 19th c. Are we comfortable with that assertion or would the size be more likely to suggest a regional preference?

I am still intrigued by the comment made by Ariel on the other tulwar thread noting that quillons with slightly downward slope on tulwars suggest an earlier example. It seems that that view, while apparantly held by some, may be from a resource we are unable to locate. Can anyone shed any light on this feature?

Best regards,
Jim

[Tabarzin]

Hi Jim,

The authors of the book in question were Parmjit Singh and Amandeep Madra. It was a fascinating book and has now become extremely scarce. I'm in the process of ordering a few copies from a private seller and will post them in the swap forum shortly.

Picture of a tulwar hilt that I recently acquired

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Tabarzin,
Beautifil talwar!!!
Thank you for posting the names of the authors, I cannot even remember how long ago this was published, several years I think.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

OK I'll have a go at it !
First of all, there is clearly a predominance of solar symbolism in the inside of the pommel dish. There is of course varying symbolism in India using this particular solar representation, and in the major Rajput lineages there are three basic lines; 1.) Suryavanshi...decended from the Hindu sun god Surya
2.) Chandravanshi..descent from Chandra, Hindu moon god.
3.) Agnivanshi...descent from Hindu god of fire.
* one of the pommel dish motifs seemed to suggest flames


The excellent examples of knuckleguarded talwars shown by Galvano and Dom both have the grip with central peaked shape, which I believe suggest Rajasthan with most examples of 19th century, though some references have indicated some earlier. The standard flueret shape langet on Galvanos seems less common on these as it seems the examples I have seen typically have the squared terminus langet as seen on Dom's. Interestingly the peaked grip and squared langet seem to usually be attributed to Udaipur (in Rajasthan).

Galvano, can you show a closeup of the brass disc on the chowk on yours?

The interesting pierced disc on the example shown by Course Eight, and the same piercing on the beautifully decorated example of Tabarzin, reminds me very much of such piercings in some regulation military swords such as the famed heavy cavalry 'disc hilt' sword of 1796 British and earlier Austrian patterns. The same effect was used later in variation on many regulation hilts. Presumably, as with fullering on blades, the intent was the lighten the sword. The suggestion of the lotus pod suggested here applied in Indian motif seems quite plausible, but would seem out of context in the decorated example of Tabarzin.

These are my thoughts and observations so far on these and I would welcome hearing those of others.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Some notes concerning the Sikh photos posted by Lew. That extremely tall and unusual turban with the crescents etc. also carries the circular, sharp bladed discs termed 'quoit' or 'chakram'. These were thrown at the enemy either whirled around forefinger and released or held between thumb and forefinger and thrown underarm.
These seem primarily associated with the Sikh Akali sect.
It would be interesting to know if there were certain peculiarities or markings/motif key to the Sikhs of this sect on thier talwars, or other weapons.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jeff,
The Raja from Rajasthan you show in post #4 could very well be from Bundi, as they seemed to have fancied this kind of ’lower’ hairstyle. Maybe it is even Maharao Raja Raghbir Singh as he and his father seem to have been especially fond of this style. If it is, the picture is likely to have been taken in the first quarter of 20th century.

Bill,
The tulwar discs you show in post #11 are interesting, but what does the hilt on the one to the right look like? The one with the steel 'pearls'.

Jim,
Here is another one, it has been shown before, but not in this connection.

[galvano]

Hello Jim
other photographs.
and the Arab mark on the blade
galvano

[Tim Simmons]

Could these marks refer to Sind or other areas now Pakistan? not Arab. The symbol is on the Pakistan flag.

[Rick]

Galvano,
Could you try another close up of the stamp on the blade ?
Wipe the oil away first .
Thanks,

That is a fine old warrior; I wonder if it's Afghan .

[Jens Nordlunde]

Good guess Rick. I wonder what the whole hilt looks like!

[Rick]

Hi Jens,
You can see it entire in post #6 .

Circles with dots on the rivet washers and the simple line and dot decoration of the hilt hint of it (my opinion); the blade stamp is possibly that of Mazar I Sharif ?
Or do I just imagine a slight resemblance to that mark everywhere I look ?

Then there's the terminal on the knucklebow which resembles the down turned quillon on a pulouar .

[Jim McDougall]

OK Rick! Its 'Great Game'-o-phobia!! You're seeing our much discussed Afghan armoury stamp again! Actually though, I think that stamp occurred in a different position on the blades, at least on those Afghan military sabres. It seems it was the cartouche with the Mosque with what appear to be cannons on either side if I recall, and was stamped in the ricasso block nearest the blade edge. I dont think this is the stamp, but as you note, we cant really see it, and I dont recall if that stamp was found on any other weapons or blade locations.

I do agree that this may well be a talwar from those northern regions near Afghanistan, though the actual hilt form favors those typically considered of Rajasthan manufacture. If you recall the thread from last March, by Pukka Bundook ("Bad News Tulwar") where the pretty much trashed blade was beautifully restored by Bundook, and the hilt (though of variant form) had a rivet which was covered by a floral device very similar to this, presuming this to be the original affectation.

That particular talwar with similar placed device seems somewhat associated with this example with the dotted line decor. The Pukka Bundook example was apparantly furbished at some point near Afghan regions, evidenced by the scabbard it was found in, which had the pierced mounts and long, fluted piece at the base, as found with Afghan paluoar scabbards. Perhaps a somewhat stretched association, but still suggesting far north regions.

The stylized semi circle with dot in the floral device on the chowk may suggest the crescent and star as noted, but more research on the symbolism. More typically found in Afghan regions is the full circle enclosing a dot.

Also interesting is the rather 'mechanical' looking lines with dots, which seem, to recall structured metal with rivets, such as in armour. It seems that the Pukka Bundook talwar had on the blade a flourish device inscribed at the beginning of the fuller and was outlined with dot type accent throughout the flourish which itself accented the fuller.This type inscribing was typical on European blades and was probably copied by the armourer, though very crudely from trade or captured examples. It does seem worthy of note in comparison with this unusual motif.

[galvano]

after cleaning ??

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Galvano.
Do you by any chance have any thoughts on this very interesting tulwar?
Have you done any research on its possible origins?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens,
Absolutely breathtaking tulwar you have posted!!! weapons of this quality have become your trademark!!!
The motif that encircle the inner disc of the pommel dish seem floral rather than solar, although in the circling fashion in the same manner. Can you identify the flowers in the upper part of the disc? They seem different than the motif underneath and on the grip.
The example you post reminds me of the architectural influences often seen on Indian weapons, the varying structure of the pommel cap associated with the stupa.

All the best,
Jim