Islamic Crossbow?

[B.I]

i am trying to look into the crossbow in medieval and post medieval islamic culture. there are 3 examples known, 'believed' to be islamic. these are almost exactly like the german wood/ivory examples of the 15thC, with a slight styling of the ivory which hints at islamic influence.

is anyone aware of any reference, whether text or image that can validate the existance of this weapon in islamic hands, in any country influenced by islamic culture?

would greatly appreciate any input.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Brian,

I think I have seen a crossbow on an Indian painting - I will have to have a look.

Jens

[B.I]

thanks jens, any help would be greatly appreciated. sculpture or text especially, or persian islamic painting. unfortunately indian painting only flourished after the moghuls, with the very occasional early example being crude and normally not of use.
however, even if it is moghul or post moghul, at least it shows the idea was adapted.
ideally, i am after pre 16thC islam, whether indian, persian, turkish etc. a written accout would be excellent.

[Rivkin]

Ofcoarse:
"The Mamluks in Egyptian politics and society" edited by Thomas Philipp and Ulrich Haarmann
"Studies on the Mamluks of Egypt" David Ayalon

As far as I remember in the first book there is an article on mamluk theology. As I remember Mamluks used "arab" bows (standard bows), "turkish" bows (long, heavy arrows) and "persian" bows (crossbows, or "foot-activated bows"). The latter ones were extremely popular, however there was a theologic problem - nowadays forgotten sunna about Mohammed supervising his troops and saying "why are you using persian swords and bows ? You should use only arab weapons !". The solution was found in stating that he meant that one should not use the weapon of kafir, for persians at the time were kafir.

Since turks and persians converted you can use their weapons, but you can't use firearms for they are "christian sunna" (Ayalon quotes the last speach of Tuman-Bey in which he accuses ottoman in violating this law by using "christian sunna" - guns).

[B.I]

thank you krill, thats wonderful.
do you have these books and can you quote the phrase. if this isnt possible, do remember which book mentioned the crossbow and i will find it and source the quote myself.
much appreciated.

[B.I]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Since turks and persians converted you can use their weapons, but you can't use firearms for they are "christian sunna" (Ayalon quotes the last speach of Tuman-Bey in which he accuses ottoman in violating this law by using "christian sunna" - guns).

very interesting. i am not familiar with 'christian sunna' and its meaning.
the firearms theology i am aware of.
its a strange concept, that if you cut off someones head, the body still remains 'whole' as in, it still exists in the material world, even if in two pieces.
but, firearms cause the body to be partially destroyed when meeting their maker, and so you are undoing what your deity has created.
very strange.

[fernando]

Sorry if this is nonsense ...
What about the muslim crossbow being of portuguese ( or partly ) influence ?
By the time Afonso de Albuquerque defeated and practically controlled all the sea and coast, from the straight of Ormuz, all India west coast, down to Malaca,( around 1505 ), he personnaly took it as a modernity that all the archers from his fleet used the crossbow, while João de Barros and others from the period, quoted that, muslims and turks were armed with normal bows, some of them very powerfull and sofisticated.
At least several crossbows were left back or captured during the inumerous battles ... this could be a start, like other known cases of invader/defender influence on altering or adopting eachother's weapons.
If this is a plausible possibility, i can translate a few historical quotations, added by pictures.

[Rivkin]

1. "Christian sunna" (also known as "hadith of kafirs") is when someone does not follow the islamic tradition - for example erects statues (like spanish umayads) or in opinion of some uses paper money (rather than bimetallic islamic currency system). Handguns were considered "christian sunna" in an extremely orthodox (and in the same time extremely unislamic) mamluk society, i.e. they were considered a chirstian novelty that is prohibited for proper muslims (source - Ayalon quotation of Tuman bey's speach).

2. I'll find this article, but it will probably take some time - I'll have to check out the books from the library, and right now I'm on a little bit tight schedule.

3. As far as I remember the decision of qadis that permitted the use of crossbow was made during the rulership or Calawun, (14th century) or somewhere in this range of time, centuries before the establishment of a portuguese base in Oman. The problem is that crossbow is nearly always referred in islamic sources as a "bow", the paper makes the point in emphasizing that it's (as far as I remember) sometimes is called a "persian bow" or "the bow where string is drawn with the foot". The size of these bows is reported to be completely enormous - elite, extremely strong mamluks were rumored (according to the paper, that I'll dig up ) to use bolts that weighted up to a few dozen pounds and more.

[Rivkin]

Ok, here are two books that should mention islamic crossbows:
Boas, Adrian J. (1999). Crusader Archeology. New York: Routledge.
Burke, Edmund. (1957). The History of Archery. New York: William Morrow and Company.

[B.I]

thank you krill.
i will chase these books down. is this from memory or do they definately mention the crossbow. a bow pulled by the foot is enough for me but it must be pre 1500.
jens,
i just bumbled across this image from a moghul painting circa 1570. too late for my needs but interesting all the same.

[Rather]

As far as I remember, the crossbow was a weapon typically used by townspeople or on ships. It was much less effective in open ground battle, as the firing rate is much slower (5 to 6 times) compared to a bow. Furthermore, it can’t be used by cavalry, due to the difficult loading procedure. So, if your are looking for such a weapon in the Islamic armies, I suggest to look into the Naval warfare or check areas, where towns were under the thread of siege. Good luck!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry I must have seen the crossbow in a book other than in my own. I have however found something else in Elgood’s Hindu Arms and Ritual.

Page 51. ‘Kautilya’s text as it has reached us with its insertions of identerminate date describes stone-throwing machines and we know from Muslim sources of manjaniqs, maghribis, arradahs and gigant crossbows called charkhs which were used in siege operations (see Toy, Sidney: The Strongholds of India. London 1957)’. And at the bottom of the page. ‘Ferishta is probably reliable when he reports that 5000 Hindus were slain when Muslim cannon fired ‘bags of copper miney’ at point-blank range at the advancing Hindu army during the battle of Talikota in 1565. He also refers to the Hindu use of ‘vast flights of rockets’. Probably rocket throwers, Takhsh-andaz, were carried into battle in howdahs together with grenade throwers, r’ad-andaz, in the army of Sultan Mahmud when he fought Timur at Delhi in 1398, but takhsh can mean a crossbow or an arrow.

See also the Glossary page 249 and 257.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by B.I

thank you krill.
i will chase these books down. is this from memory or do they definately mention the crossbow. a bow pulled by the foot is enough for me but it must be pre 1500.
jens,
i just bumbled across this image from a moghul painting circa 1570. too late for my needs but interesting all the same.

It's from memory, but "The History of Archery" I think certainly mentions the development of islamic crossbow (here my memory becomes vague - was it turks or persian who introduced it). As strange as it sounds they used it against very heavily armored enemies. As far as I remember old turkish shooting style (khazars etc.) very often required archers to dismount even when shooting with bows. Concerning ships, arabs, mamluks and early turks were not very profficient of famous for using them. Navy service was too often dispised and was not considered a "mainstream" career, therefore I (well I'm way too ignorant) don't know of a single famous "mamluk navy" manual.

[Tim Simmons]

Some how I do not think this is what you had in mind, it is a trifle 'ethnographic'. The crossbow was and might still be in use in Malaya. Tim

[B.I]

krill,
thanks for your input. i will check all the sources you have mentioned. i have access to libraries other than my own although i doubt i will find some of the books you mentioned. i will pursue them anyway.
jens,
thanks for the links you sent me, which show the development in china and surrounding countries.
tim,
great picture i'd like to imagine a walled garrison to the right, out of shot but think it may be some unfortunate bird who's in for a bit of a shock.

i think what i am looking for is a way to suppress the doubt, academically, that crossbows were made and used by islamic forces pre 1500. the ones i am refering to are too close in construction to german pieces which infuses doubt that they were made by an islamic hand, as apposed to being adapted for use, or made by europeans in islamic countries and pulling in certain artistic traits.
so, i suppose i need the definate period mentions that krill hinted at, maybe in a muslim manual, or sculpture. i do really appreciate everyone help and am sure the truth can be revealed eventually.

[fernando]

In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html

[B.I]

Originally Posted by fernando

In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html

thank you fernando. although this steps into religion and mythology, it is still a dated mention of a weapon that could be the crossbow. i can use this, as this information will be passed on to someone (invloved with me) who will try and re-translate this quote, to verify that it is indeed a crossbow, and not a bow. much appreciated.
what i need is also an image, preferable in sculpture that will show the crossbow being used at the time in question.

[fernando]

Furthermore, it can’t be used by cavalry, due to the difficult loading procedure. So, if your are looking for such a weapon in the Islamic armies, I suggest to look into the Naval warfare or check areas, where towns were under the thread of siege.
Crossbows, if i learnt it right, since its inventing by the chinese, took all forms of dimensions and uses, from bolt to clay or iron bullit throwers, from siege giants to "small" hunting arms. Also its adoption was much spread within time and regions, not meaning they prevailed with those that originaly adopted it, or if those adopters were the whole of part of a determined race, islamic or other.
The portuguese XV chronicles are univocal at quoting that the local warriors ( along all that coast ) used normal bows, against the portuguese archers crossbows ( no translation problems ). This not meaning that all peoples of India were never familiar to the crossbow, nor that it was of portuguese invention or even of portuguese production ( plenty and good ones were german ).
On the other hand, crossbows were also in cavalry. As an example, King Dom Sebastião ( 1557 ) fought the Moors in Alcacer Kibir with a personal Horse Guard of crossbow archers. There are examples left.
However three centuries before, by the time of christian reconquery (1139-1263 ), the moor armies fighting the portuguese, already had the crossbow in regular weaponry. The "Cauçalarab", depicted in figure 85, was very light and quick to remount. Although it had less penetration power, it came to be adopted by the christians.
Just a pitty is only a drawing and not a picture or a sculpture, to be a solid example of islamic pre-XV century crossbow presence.

[B.I]

hi fernando,
i am not sure what it is you have attached. are these line drawings taken from something else and to what date?
the crossbow i am looking for is of german design, except the style of the ivory fittings, which is islamic in form. the definate presence and use during this period is a good start for me.
thank you for your efforts and please expand more as to where the information came from. modern (post 1500 ) depictions are useful, if included with reference that i can backtrack.
thanks again.

[Aqtai]

I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

[RSWORD]

Brian

One avenue to consider is the archaeological evidence. This past March at the Timonium show one of our presentors was an archaeologist working in Israel. She shared pictures of one of their work sites which was a 13th century walled forte that was embodied by the Europeans. Many interesting items turned up but specifically in regards to what you were looking at were a large number of crossbow bolts of various sizes. There were also a large number of various size stone cannon ball. The evidence suggested the forte was definitely under attack as they found skeletons with sword and bolt injuries and they even found a horse skeleton with bolt still in the bone. Given the various size bolt, they must have had crossbow from handheld to a wheeled type to shoot massive bolts. Matter of fact, as I recall, they had several Crusader fortes under dig and were finding a lot of archaeological evidence to suggest the crossbow was in strong use in the 13th century. It doesn't help with what the bow itself looked like but it is strong evidence of their use.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Aqtai

I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

It's basically the same as Rabie blah-blag Training bla-h bla-h Mamluk Faris,
and I think it's the same text that was quoted in David Nicolle's mamluks (unofortunately my library does not have this book).

Ok, if it's important I can get most of the books I quoted in my library.

[B.I]

hi aqtai,
i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts?
rick,
unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful.
however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design.
still much appreciated and please carry on

[B.I]

2 examples of 15thC european crossbows, both in italy (not in the same place). these are of the type i am looking for. the differences between the 'islamic' and the european are very minor, and just in the style of fittings.

[B.I]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Ok, if it's important I can get most of the books I quoted in my library.

its important to me and i would greatly appreciate any help you can give. its not just a general enquiry, and the results (if any definate ones occur) will go towards publication. it is for this reason that i am trying to push this past speculation.
thanks again.

[Aqtai]

Originally Posted by B.I

hi aqtai,
i have found a copy of this book and will look into it. do you remember the nature of the image, ie were they modern depictions, or period manuscripts?
rick,
unfortunately, any archeology evidence from crusader sites may yield crossbow bolts, but from which side? i know the europeans had crossbows, and i have no doubt the muslims may have used captured weapons, if they were an 'advanced' technology that they deemed useful.
however, i am after a crossbow definately made by a muslim hand. the examples in existence are of complete form, but the speculation and debate is whether they were made by muslims, of just a variation of the german design.
still much appreciated and please carry on

I no longer have this book, but I do vaguely remember a picture of a mamluk with a crossbow. The picture, if it exists, is a late 14th century Egyptian (?) miniature painting.

[B.I]

thanks aqtai,
if this is the case then this is exactly what i am looking for. i will chase this book down and let you know.

[Marc]

Ok, I’m a bit short of time, so, I apologize for “sniping” like this, but I thought that some of these things might be of interest…


In Spain there's documentation about the use of the crossbow by Moorish forces from at least the 13th c.
From that age, in the Cantigas de Alfonso X can be seen contingents of Muslims accompanied by crossbowmen, especially in sieges. It can be argumented, tough, that at that time in Spain (to make a short story of it) wasn't unusual to hire groups of armed men to join one's armies, regardless of their faith, as long as they were going to be reliable. So, Moorish troops could be found in Christian armies, and Christian men in Moorish armies. At that period, also, one would have a hard time to distinguish Moorish from Christian warriors by their panoply, defensive or offensive, alone. Especially in border territories. Sorry, I haven't been able to find online images from the Cantigas that showed the crossbows. But I think it’s something worth mentioning.
From a bit later, we have the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas (“Tower of the Dames”, in the Partal House, The Alhambra, Granada), from about 1350, and where an army in the march is represented and mounted crossbowmen in Moorish outfit can be seen.

As told by himself, at 1238, while besieging the city of València, then in Muslim hands, King Jaume I of Aragon is hit in the forehead by a crossbow bolt that goes through his helmet and wounds him. The King grabs the bolt, pulls it out, rises in his stirrups and shouts angrily to the city walls in front of his astonished court. Then goes back to his army’s camp, rides around a bit, wiping the blood that falls from his face, to let his men know for sure he’s ok (morale being important in these feudal armies), and then retires to his tent where he spends some days with an horrible headache.

At the other side of the Mediterranean, we have a treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi (I think that in Alexandria) for Saladdin, where, among other weapons and engines, crossbows (yes, the hand-held variety) are discussed. This was, for example, prior to the use of the stirrup, IIRC.

On the other hand, at 1199, King Richard the Lionheart is killed at Acre by a crossbow bolt.

There’s a Nasrid crossbow (sorry, I don’t know the exact attributed date, but the Nasrid dynasty spans from 1231 to 1492) in Granada’s Archaeological Museum (a couple of references here and here )


Some information, including iconography (although quite badly reproduced), about the use of the crossbow in Al-Andalus and the bit about the Cantigas can be found in the book:
SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993.
It's out of stock, right now, but it can be found via interlibrary loan.

More interesting, being in English, would be:
NICOLLE, David. "Early Islamic Arms and Armour", Ed. by Instituto de Estudios sobre armas antiguas, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, Madrid(?), 1976. Also out of stock, I’m afraid.

Finally, and knowing you have access to someone who can read Spanish, I think you might find this reference of the utmost interest…


I hope this helps, somewhat. Again, sorry for not elaborating.

[B.I]

marc,
please feel free to 'snipe' any time you want
also, if this is the casual information you can provide when in a hurry, then i look forward to you sitting down with time!
your information was very helpful, and i had always suspected the information needed would come from a spanish source, due to the heavy involvement with moors and a cross-culture that was never more prevelant than in the 'medieval' period.
i shall get the link you sent translated and hope it holds some good information. you hint that it does, but my spanish doesnt get much further than ordering a couple of beers in a bar.
also, i will try and search this source -

SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellan-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E, Madrid, 1993.

no matter how poor, any iconography is desperately needed.
the Nasrid crossbow sounds intriguing, is there any images available. the two links you sent are in spanish, but do these sites hold images?
again, i can get the text sifted through.
also, the frescoes in Torre de las Damas - are there any publications that show these.

please expand when you have time. i will not be able to get the texts translated for another week, so expect some questions from me.

King Jaume I of Aragon sounds like a tough guy. a mere headache from a headshot! i wonder if that goes into mythology and fantasy. i remember the story of the sikh warrior who continued fighting after his head was cut off!!
if not, i think charlton heston ought to come out of retirement, put down his rifle and don a spanish sword for there is another epic to be made

thanks again.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Elgood: Firearms of The Islamic World, page 115, you will see a miniature with at least two crossbows – dated c. 1500. Too late for you I guess.

Syed Zafar Haider: Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India, page 186. Two drawings of crossbows, one from Egypt 11th century, in Museum of Islamic Art, Cairo and one from a miniature shown in ‘Zafar Nama’ c. 1467. In the text about crossbows he writes:

Takhsh.
A rare example of a crossbow is illustrated in the late fifteenth century Persian manuscript Zafar Nama. Under the nomenclature takhsh it is further mentioned in the manuscript as a part of the arsenal used by the Muslim Indian armies fighting against Timur.

A drawing in ink from the eleventh century, Egypt proves the presence of this weapon with the Islamic armies much before it became popular in Europe. Ease and effectiveness with which the composite bow was used prevented the crossbow from gaining favour with the Islamic armies. It is for this reason that no example of such a weapon has reached us from the past.

The crossbow from Egypt is a multipurpose weapon, a spear and a crossbow. Maybe they have other crossbows at the museum, but anyway it shows, that they knew the crossbow very early.


Jens