Chinese Jian

[Gavin Nugent]

Hmmm, what did I just buy? I have been looking for years for a genuine Vintage or Antique Chinese Jian with little success, well success for one that appeals to my eyes, there have been plenty pass me by without that certain Mystic.

I found this piece at you know where and after having many extra images sent to me I was convinced of it's age and uniqueness.

There are very few good visual references that I can find on Chinese swords, from what I have seen and know, this sword appears to be from Around the late 1800's to about 1920, has military fittings on the scabbard and on the swords hilt too, but as far the cross guard is concerned, from the images, it varies greatly in detail from all that I have seen on military style swords and appears chiselled and non-military. There is what appears to be the remains of a tassel that was the same material as the hilt bindings and another cloth around the top of the hilt too(maybe to keep blood from the hand's grip?).

As I have not yet received this item and don't expect to for another week or two, I cannot comment on the blade. I have seen these blade before, some state that they are as old as Ming others have but them later, I do not know.
The entire sword patina is even and true, the brass seven star inlay is blackened with age. The sword in sheath is 40inches. The scabbard fittings have at some stage been painted yellow but the even honest patina can be seen in both the paint and the brass fittings exposed under the paint.

I do welcome comments and also answers to some of the questions that have arisen from my viewing of the sword.

My questions would be from what period is this sword actually from and is the blade possibly older as seen in many other swords?
What is the significance of the yellow paint on the sheath fittings?
What is the significance of the unusual cross guard?

And please if anything does come to light from viewing this forum, please do share what you know and Bill or Josh, I welcome your views on this matter with great interest.

best regards

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

More images for viewing.

[josh stout]

I think you have a very nice find, but there are a few issues and questions that will have to wait until you have it in hand. The Yazi guard is typical in form, but usually associated with more decorated fittings. Considering the somewhat crude finish on it, it may be a later replacement. I can't tell if the blade is truly pattern welded. That is the big question. The lines I see, make me suspicious, but I just bought one with a very similar look to the pattern and it was genuine. The blade does not appear to have been used after being joined with the fittings. Points that sharp are rare on antiques, but may indicate a sword kept in exceptionally good condition, or that the blade was reshaped. If it was reshaped I would guess it was done at the same time as it was put together with the fittings.

The yellow paint on the fittings is typical of period restorations, or may even be original. I have a jian and a dao where the blades and steel fittings were painted silver. Some nice early 20th C. Chinese blades were nickle plated over good steel. I have the feeling that paint was used in the same spirit, to make something nice and shiny and "modern" looking.

I recently bought a blade where I thought the stars were darkened like the ones shown, and they turned out to be missing. Brass does not usually get that dark especially when the steel is bright.

The fittings in general look very good with the rounded puffy look of originals. They seem like they would match an "ace of spades" guard better.

My guess is that this jian has been restored at least once in the very late Qing or early Republican period. The guard may be newer than that. If the blade is pattern welded, my guess is you have something very nice, and assuming the price was risk adjusted, I think you did very well. There is a chance that a non-pattern welded blade was used in the period restoration. That would be unfortunate.
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Josh, I will wait in anticipation with fingers crossed.

regrads

Gav

[RSWORD]

I agree with Josh on his overall assessment of the sword. Vintage jian of this length are quite hard to come by and this makes it a desirable piece. I suspect the blade is pattern welded because in some of the overall shots I can see evidence of a "hamon" which would indicate heat treated, hardened edges. The blade is too scratched up and covered in grease to see if there is a lamellar pattern to the body of the blade so hopefully after a light cleaning this will be more evident. However, an antique jian will have hard edges so I recommend testing this once you have it in hand. Other than the crude guard everything else looks late Qing. The chord grip shows some wear and the wood beneath shows a good patina. The cloth tassles are a bit tattered but show good age themselves. I have also seen the painted fittings and have an example in my collection that is also gold colored. Has a very village or provincial feel with rough lacquered or painted scabbards and painted fittings but then again that is a bit of character, eh. While not the prettiest card in the deck I think it had a long service life and certainly a user for personal defense in the late Qing period with a crude guard added at an unknown date. Overall, if the blade is indeed period-which I suspect- I think you did quite well.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Rick, I am glad you came on board with this one and your words are reassuring, it just can't get here quick enough now.
You must have good eyes because I cannot see the heat treating you are refering to on the edges but like you say it is covered in grease.
With regards to the crude guard, I have seen this image on a good many smaller straight swords and on those paired swords that sit back to back in a single sheath, are these that I refer too of the same period or are they fantasy swords for want of a better word?
Would you be kind enough to share your Chinese sword collection either here or in another thread as I would love to see them for a visual learning display and comparrison to what is available in the market place.

best regards

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

I have placed a copy of an article I read recently, it has nothing directly to do with this sword though it could well have been made in this region. I thought it might be of interest to those who love these swords so much.


Long Quan Master Swords is one of the oldest and most famous sword families in China. Master sword maker Oh Ye Ze founded it more than two thousand years ago when he came upon a place in Long Quan, where the Tai lake was located. Attracted by its pure waters and quiet surroundings, Oh Ye Ze settled down and forged three legendary swords for Emperor Xien. People later renamed the Tai lake to Jian Chi Lake roughly translated to be the pool of swords.

Many sword-making families now live in Long Quan, but the most famous among them is the Shen family. The Shen family's swords have been known to have the best quality and skill for hundreds of years. In the 1911 Long Quan Master Sword competition, a sword forged by the third generation of the Shen family stabbed through three solid brass blanks as well as split a sword from another maker in half, thus earning the title "King of Swords." The Shen family Long Quan Master Sword were praised as national treasure in China by the people of the highest social class. In 1942, a Long Quan Master Sword was made for the second president of the Republic of China by special request and in 1955, a special customized Long Quan Master Sword was made for General Mao Zhe Don.

Many awards were given to swords forged by the Shen family in various competitions. In the 1996 Chinese National Art Festival, Shen Zho's (fourth generation of the Shen's family) Zhi Zuen Sword won the gold medal. As testimony to the Shen family's accomplishments, the mayor of Long Quan awarded the family a plaque that said "Tan Xi De Ye Jian" or "The Number One Sword Under the Sky."

regards

Gavin

[josh stout]

The Yazi guard commonly seen on Chinese antiques has a multi-dynastic history, and may be related to the Makara. Both are water beasts with upturned noses. The style of the guard on your jian, is typical of Qing style guards, but looks like it may be a cast copy of an origenal. Generaly the fittings on your jian seem more likely to be matched with an ace of spades guard. Also, generaly the Yazi guard is an earlier type than the ace of spades, so seeing the Yazi guard makes me think it was a later replacement. Alternatively, the overall "village" look of your jian may expain the crude re-cast look of the guard. Mixed fittings are not uncommon on village things that are often refit with whatever is handy.
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Josh, given the time, would you also be able to share images of your Chinese weaponry.

regards

Gav

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thanks Rick, I am glad you came on board with this one and your words are reassuring, it just can't get here quick enough now.
You must have good eyes because I cannot see the heat treating you are refering to on the edges but like you say it is covered in grease.
With regards to the crude guard, I have seen this image on a good many smaller straight swords and on those paired swords that sit back to back in a single sheath, are these that I refer too of the same period or are they fantasy swords for want of a better word?
Would you be kind enough to share your Chinese sword collection either here or in another thread as I would love to see them for a visual learning display and comparrison to what is available in the market place.

best regards

Gavin

Hi Gavin,

I am traveling at the moment but when I return this weekend I'll see if I can scrape together a few pictures of examples in my collection.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Rick, I look forward to viewing them. If you catch this posting Josh, I'd love to see your Chinese swords too, and for that matter, anyone else out there who has examples they can share.

regards

Gavin

[josh stout]

I will see if I can get some newer pictures of things soon. Most of the pictures I have at the moment have already been posted somewhere. So anyway, here are a few randomly selected Chinese antiques that I don't think I have posted on this forum.

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...B4E5888002.jpg

This is a willow leaf dao with a widening of the tip that makes it what Phillip Tom has called a "proto-oxtail dao". It would have been a military weapon. The handle wood is obviously new, but the pommel and guard are typical 19th c. Qing military fittings.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...opai/dadao.jpg

This is a civilian weapon often called a podao/pudao. It differs from the dadao in that the handle length equals the blade length.

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation358.jpg

This is an atypical dadao with a willow leaf blade next to an extra large oxtail dao.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation359.jpg

Same.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation360.jpg

Tip of the dadao.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation364.jpg

Dragon decoration on blade of dadao.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation362.jpg

"Good luck" characters added by period owner.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation365.jpg

Handle with original wrap.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation338.jpg

Some village made shuang jian.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation342.jpg

The blades showing unusual versions of the typical stars.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...58F8CE5899.jpg

Full length picture.

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...LoGrH1o-To.jpg

A chopper of ambiguous name, that is similar to one seen in Qinlong era regulations. In the regulations it is called a pudao, Scott Rodell calls it a "demon head chopper" the dealer called a yantoudao (flying goose knife?), and I have seen other names proposed.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...Gb_MesfiRP.jpg

Duan jian with village made guard and scabbard.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...pai/mm5658.jpg

3000 g pole arm blade on a cut down handle.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...ai/0e79_12.jpg

Full size pole arm without a clear name.

OK, I obviously just broke the "one sword one thread" rule, but it seemed like a good time to get some random pictures out there. These are typical of most of the things in my collection. They are not top quality with beautiful fittings, but the blades are all good pattern welded steel. They are just a random selection of things I already have pictures of. I would be happy to discuss things in detail, or if you have a question about a particular type of sword, I can start a thread with additional examples, but that could take some time.
Josh

[Yu-Ming Chang]

I've seen this specific Yazi guard quite often in late era, early 20th century jian. Most often they were on decorative chang jian that had the characters for Lung Chuan and a dragon carved into the forte, but I've seen them on "user" pieces as well. The rest of the fittings on those pieces are variations of the ones seen in this jian. Based on those examples, I think that everything is ensuite on this jian in terms of fittings and that the Yazi guard is contemporary to the rest of the fittings.

I see what look to be cold shuts delineating the edge from the softer cheeks, suggesting sanmei. The cheeks don't look like they have much grain or laminations, which is consistent with a Republican era pieces that I seen/own.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thank you for the images Josh, I am sure all interested in Chinese weapons appreciate them greatly as I know I certainly do.

I do in particular like the full length polearm.

With regards to this link;

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...LoGrH1o-To.jpg

To my eyes it looks like a Kora blade with a sabre handle, although deviating from the original Jian posting, what are you views on this piece you provided the link to?


Thank you too Yu-Ming Chang, I appreciate hearing about your knowledge on these swords.
I certainly think the Yazi guard is original to the piece, only in that the patina displayed is consistant throughout the brass fittings, not through absolute knowledge of these swords history.
If you have the chance Yu-Ming Chang, would you kind enough to post images of example you have for further discussion here?

very best regards fellow collectors

Gavin

[josh stout]

Originally Posted by freebooter

....With regards to this link;

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...LoGrH1o-To.jpg

To my eyes it looks like a Kora blade with a sabre handle, although deviating from the original Jian posting, what are you views on this piece you provided the link to?....
Gavin

I will set up a thread.
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Josh, I will view shortly with interest.

regards

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Well the good news is that the sword arrived today, they bad news is the macro function has gone kaput on my ole Sony F505V, time to explore new options.

From good examination of the sword I can state the following.

The scabbard is in considerably good condition, upon first glance it just looked like a black lacquer over wood but when looking closer it is black lacquer over ray or shark skin. Although the lacquer hides the grain in places, it looks to be completely intact bar the odd dint, scratch, cut in the hide or small fracture in the wood. It also sports a fine copper type wire at the ends of the scabbard under the fitting, I am guessing being wrapped to hold the skin in place and then lacquered over before having the fittings placed on.

What at first I thought from the images was just a cloth below the guard is in fact what I would consider a tassel, there is a rawhide loop bound with red woollen type fibre that has had glue or a lacquer placed on it to stop it unravelling itself, from there it has three fabric strips bound under the red material. The tassel colour scheme is red blue red, a wider light blue strip then blue again. Images will explain it better when I get the photos up.

The hilt and guard are lovely and look better than the images posted, maybe a better light can reveal this. All fitting are very tight with no movement.

The blade.. I would like some advise before I tackle cleaning the blade. I have rubbed all the inlay and all is present. The blade has a good amount of flex and when pushed against the floor, my grip breaks before I push the blade any further. The first six inches of the 29 inch blade is thicker in the spine then the rest of the blade and when I rub my fingers the full length it too can be felt, to my eyes it also thickens slightly at the tip, remains unsharpened and would be a thrusting weapon rather than a slashing weapon but would leave a nasty gash I am sure if slashed. Between the 13th and 17th inch of the blade there are about 4-5 nicks in the edges.

All for now, time to shop for a new camera.

regards

Gav

[josh stout]

I am glad to hear that the stars were all there. I think you have a very nice piece. What can you tell about the pattern welding?
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Josh, at this stage I cannot tell you much, I cannot see any distinct patterns or a "harmon" (the edge is not live). I can however see something in the steel, but what exactly I have no idea as yet. I will be bidding on a new camera tonight and I hope to have it within the week to take images. In the mean time I will clean clean clean the blade for a better look.
I have done the file test as suggested and it does grip somewhat and does not skate across like a file does on my Tibetan Knives. I then took my Sabre off the wall that shows a distinct wave pattern and the file grips exactly the same as the Jian. I am guessing it is just a matter of the steel used in the period? I also noted that the cloth binding on the hilts is exactly the same on both Jian and Sabre as is the red material under the binding.

regards

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Here it is guys and I very much welcome further advise and comments.

The Blade.

I finally cleaned all the grease and muck off the blade and thought to myself Blah, just a very boring bright shine blade and I could see no forging marks to the naked eye. I then looked at past forums on etching and cleaning and ran a few question by fellow collectors who provided good sound advise.

I followed instruction from Rick,(Thanks Rick) and proceeded to clean further and remove this shine to see if any pattern laid beneath.
I have only etched the blade once and quickly, the photos reveal what lay beneath the bright shine finish.
I do not wish to take this any further until I hear some more sound advise from readers and collectors.

From this discovery I have pondered a few questions.

Why is it that when I now apply polish, these lamenations disapear to the naked eye again?

Should I continue with etching, or polish, oil and preserve it as it is?

Should I return the blade to it's former high shine, grease it as it has been all these years and leave it?

What date would one assume this sword was produced?


I am guessing that this is one of those rare lucky finds as stated by others, being a long blade in full profile, inlay complete and well preserved since it's departure from it's original owner.

All the Best

Gav

[josh stout]

Very nice looking blade. We can stay with the Early Republican/late Qing dating, but as you know the blade could be older. As for etching, there are many opinions. Here is what I would do: Scrub the blade with soap and water, be very careful not to get any on the fittings. Remove any residual oils with Windex and perhaps finally acetone. Then when it is perfectly dry, put clear nail polish over the stars. They could fall out with etching otherwise. I etch mine with vinegar in a PVC tube as this gives an even result. I leave the tube next to the furnace so the temperature is about 35 C.. Then I leave it there for 18-24 hours. I take it out, neutralise it with baking soda, then scrub it again. This makes a clean shiny blade where once again the laminations are difficult to see. (they would be dark before the final scrubbing.) Now what you have done is create a bit of contour with the etching. I take 4000 grit paper and go over the blade. This highlights the lamination, and turns the high carbon steel bright and the low carbon dark. Without this if you just left the blade dark from etching, the high carbon is dark, and the low carbon bright. I prefer bright edges on a Chinese blade. I have not seen this particular approach described before, so I would be interested in others comments. I showed a blade I had treated this way to Scott Rodell, and he liked the way it looked very much.
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Josh,

Can you show images of this blade in detail here please. I would like to see the final effect you speak of. I too would like to hear what others think of this method.


regards

Gav

[Flavio]

Yes Josh, please if you can post some pics thank you

[Gavin Nugent]

Can any readers post a list of essential reading on the matter of Chinese swords?

regards

Gav

[josh stout]

Originally Posted by Flavio

Yes Josh, please if you can post some pics thank you

I have a backlog of pictures that need taking, but I will try and get to it as soon as I can. The technique is great for very active patterns and inserted edges, but only highlights the edges if the patterns are more subdued. Strangely it does not seem to work well on Tibetan style pattern welding where I thought the high contrast piled construction would show up well. I have had more luck on Tibetan things with the more normal approach of just a few hours in vinegar to darken, and then just a quick cleanup with 4000 paper. I am wondering if nitric might work better. Vinegar etches seem to bring out greys while I think nitric brings out more contrasting colors.

Here is a Tibetan style blade I did in the more normal method of etching. I think it turned out well, but the contrast is not as strong as would have liked. More of a pattern of greys than a true light and dark.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation278.jpg
Josh