Pre-colombian weapons anyone?

[apolaki]

HI,

Does anyone have interests in Pre-colombian weaponary, I found an Incan Tumi, but i know its very likely a modern replica, because as someone stated I have a fondness of finding items from that era.. LOL

=/

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by apolaki

HI,

Does anyone have interests in Pre-colombian weaponary, I found an Incan Tumi, but i know its very likely a modern replica, because as someone stated I have a fondness of finding items from that era.. LOL

=/

Well now Apolaki....thats esoteric!!! and I wish you all the best in finding weapons of this period and as you have noted, a tumi would truly most likely be a modern replica.

Since you've brought these up though, the original 'tumi' or sacrificial knives for the sacrifice of llama were from the Inca culture which originated about 1200 AD in Peru near Cuzco, and probably thier predecessors. These very ornamental knives with semicircular blade were also used for the enigmatic skull trepanations. While the Inca culture ended with the Spanish conquest in the 16th century, the cultures and traditions are still held by ethnic groups such as Quechuas and Aymara.
I'm not sure if these cultures still use the tumi in modern times, but probably still do produce them in a commercial sense, and it is said to hang one on the wall is good luck.

In looking at these semi circular knives, they reminded me of the knives of similar shape blade used as utility knives by various eskimo groups, and termed the 'ulu'. These have ancestry dating back to at least 2500BC and used blades of slate with bone handles. In the study of anthropology the migrations of early man from Asia to the Americas is continuously being reconsidered and the movements of tribal people in South American regions seem being found earlier than earlier believed. It is interesting to note the similarity of these blades, and somewhat compelling to consider the possibility of such ancient ancestry from the early migrations.

Best regards,
Jim

[apolaki]

Hi Jim,

Incidently, i did find a tumi.. I know im like the magnet for tourist items..

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by apolaki

.. I know im like the magnet for tourist items..

Hi apolaki,

Try to acquire items from people of the forum. You could ask for something in the swapforum. If people want to sell what you are asking for, they can sent you pics and prices. It would be more expensive, but if you buy from respected forumites (you can find them when you follow the threads, or look with the search-button), you might get what you want, and it is a quite reliable way to collect.


Maurice

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by apolaki

Hi Jim,

Incidently, i did find a tumi.. I know im like the magnet for tourist items..

Hi Apolaki,
Thats really an attractive piece, and you're not the only one. I tend to pick up touristy souveniers in our travels (to my wifes dismay!!) but they have to be very small the shocks in our RV are at the limit with the books!!

Maurice's suggestion is well placed, following the threads here will put you in touch with many members well versed in all manner of weapon forms, and accordingly will usually offer assistance with questions when you seek to acquire examples. As always, the most important weapon to any collector is knowledge BEFORE buying!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Lew]

Found this Wooden sword imbeded with flint or obsidian flakes used for cutting. I saw something on the history channel last year on it. It seemed to be a very effective weapon against bare flesh.

Lew

[fearn]

I like them, but I don't collect originals. I'm more interested in learning about them.

The experimental archeology movement has been having a lot of fun making these weapons, so it's possible to purchase functioning atlatls and such. Because the originals are often in mediocre shape, it's interesting to see and work with replicas.

F

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Since you've brought these up though, the original 'tumi' or sacrificial knives for the sacrifice of llama were from the Inca culture which originated about 1200 AD in Peru near Cuzco, and probably thier predecessors. These very ornamental knives with semicircular blade were also used for the enigmatic skull trepanations.

I don´t think this kind of metal piece has been used to trepanate or to sacrifice. The original piece must be made of obsidian, as the metals worked on pre-colombian times were very soft.

Maybe the last macahuítl known by an english spoken writter was destroyed. I think there are others on mexican museums and collections.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I don´t think this kind of metal piece has been used to trepanate or to sacrifice. The original piece must be made of obsidian, as the metals worked on pre-colombian times were very soft.

Maybe the last macahuítl known by an english spoken writter was destroyed. I think there are others on mexican museums and collections.
Regards

Gonzalo

You're right Gonzalo, my reference to the original tumi did not include that the blades were obsidian, thank you for noticing that.

I am delighted to hear that the two ancient weapons lost in the fire in Madrid were not the last examples, and it would be great to know where other authentic original examples might be found. It is indeed a great disadvantage to not speak other languages, as there are so many important resources beyond the western scope.

All the best,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Gonzalo,

While I agree that most of the trepanation tools were obsidian, the Andeans worked true bronze and arsenic bronze, as well as copper. I think they started working copper alloys around 1000 CE (link to article). The Inka certainly were using metallic maces when the Conquistadors arrived, and they also used bronze in securing their stonework.

I agree that a gold tumi is primarily a symbolic tool, but if they made bronze tumis, those would be very different. Regardless, the major weapons of the Andes were probably slings, bolos, stone headed and wooden clubs, Amazonian style arrows and spears. I haven't seen any reference to suggest that bronze weapons were widespread in the Inkan army, and as far as I can tell, metal weapons were for the wealthy.

Final note: there's a book on Incan martial arts out now, for those interested (link to Amazon). It contains a short chapter on weapons.

my 0.002 centavos

F

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all, I got one of these, Inca 15th-16th century. Could possibly be Moche. Looks to be arsenic bronze-has a slight yellow tinge to it which I believe is a characteristic of the material.