Tulwar markings?

capt.smash · 20th May 2005, 08:09 PM

Hi all

, can anybody translate the inscription on this tulwar blade?Also can anybody tell me anything about the makers marks?

Aqtai · 20th May 2005, 10:06 PM

The words are Bism Ellah Ar-Rahman Ar-rahim. "In the name of God the Compassionate, the merciful."

capt.smash · 20th May 2005, 10:33 PM

Thanks Aqtai thats exellent

thank you.

RSWORD · 21st May 2005, 02:56 AM

I have heard of the stamped marks being referred to as "eyelash" or "sickle" marks. They could be armoury marks from an unknown armoury. Not much is known on armoury markings for Indian swords. The marks probably first originated as imitations of similar marks found on early European swords and I believe these marks were thought to originally to be Italian and later copied by other European smiths as marks of quality. India imported large amounts of European blades and probably associated this mark with blades of quality and themselves imitated the mark to portray quality. Jim, I am sure, can expound on these markings but this is a basic introduction.

tom hyle · 21st May 2005, 10:53 AM

The triple dots are said to be a symbol of Tamerlane. Other than that I don't know what they mean (or the "eyelashes", let alone the straight double houndstooth thing.......hmmmmm.....eyelashes or toothy mouths? Are these seen on anything but blades? Both the triple dots and the "eyelashes" are common and widespread on swords from India to Mooroco, in my experience. The triple dots are usually in a smaller triangle, it seems to me, and I haven't seen them as little "hollow" circles, but it still looks like the same mark; 3 dots, individually struck (note the irregular orientation) but intended in an equalateral triangle. All the marks look larger and crisper and better defined than is usual; I don't neccessarily want to up and call that a mark of modernity, but I'm not sure what it is. Likewise I don't know about the double "eyelashes" facing each other like that on a SE blade; it is somewhat my impression they tend to occur in "ones" on SE blades, and seem to relate somehow to the edge. Sword appears to be foled steel?

capt.smash · 21st May 2005, 06:40 PM

HI guys thanks for the replys

i havent actualy got my hands on this yet i braught it on impulse....however the more i look at it now the more i suspect that it is newer than i thaught...its just seems to prestine ,flawless blade edge no real ware to the inlay on handle...hmmm

.Tom

the blade does seem folded there are definate cold shuts on one side of the blade so i think the blade is functional....here are some aditional pics.What do you think am i a sucker?

Aqtai · 21st May 2005, 06:44 PM

I don't really know much about tulwars, although I have seen them at Militaria fairs. I don't know if it's just the angle at which the photo was taken, but is that blade a bit short?

capt.smash · 21st May 2005, 06:53 PM

I think its just the angle the blade is 28"

derek · 21st May 2005, 08:11 PM

Hi,

Two questions: is the blade sharp, or has it been sharpened at some stage?

Is that a hint of a wootz pattern, or is the pic fooling me?

I've seen easily over 100 "tourist" market swords from Iran and Rajastan, and NONE of them ever had a sharpened blade, and none of them showed a wootz pattern, but nearly always a definite mechanical damascus pattern.

Yours doesn't look like them, at least from your pics. Even the koftgari looks different. It may not be ancient, but looks to be a serviceable fighting sword.

-d

capt.smash · 21st May 2005, 08:25 PM

Hi

im not sure yet how sharp it is as it hasnt arived yet.It was the sugestion of wootz that made me go for it

but now ive looked at the pics again im not optomistic.

M.carter · 21st May 2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

Hi,

Two questions: is the blade sharp, or has it been sharpened at some stage?

Is that a hint of a wootz pattern, or is the pic fooling me?

I've seen easily over 100 "tourist" market swords from Iran and Rajastan, and NONE of them ever had a sharpened blade, and none of them showed a wootz pattern, but nearly always a definite mechanical damascus pattern.

Yours doesn't look like them, at least from your pics. Even the koftgari looks different. It may not be ancient, but looks to be a serviceable fighting sword.

-d

I stand to back Dereks post. I've also seen the junk coming out of India lately in Kuwait, most are antiqued and have very loose hilts, and etched on the forte "Made in India". Yours Captain, is certainly not among those. I believe you have a genuine item, I especially like that curve on your sword.

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2005, 05:36 AM

The markings on the blade of this tulwar are perfectly explained by Rick, and the so called 'sickle' marks are indicative of European trade blades that were often copied by armourers in Afghanistan and Northern India. These are most commonly associated with early Genoan parallel markings that appear to have been adopted by makers in Styria and the Caucusus, among others. It does seem that they occur on most Afghan paluoar blades, at least examples I have seen. The linear multi diamond figure between the toothed semi circles seems atypical of most applications of this marking, but may be embellishment for effect. This marking would have been simply for quality assertion and would not have to do with any armoury markings I have seen.

The three dots or circles have to do with the 'trimurti' and this symbol is key to Hindu as well as Buddhist symbolism, which as Rick has noted, carries rather detailed explanation. The three dot symbol is often seen on tulwar blades, often subtly marked and not usually joined with a 'trade' marking such as the sickle motif seen here.

Looks like a nice example, probably latter 19th century, and the hilt seems to suggest Rajasthan as the elements and motif resemble others I've seen that are said to be from there.

Best regards,
Jim

capt.smash · 22nd May 2005, 01:30 PM

Thanks guys exellent replys,very interesting

tom hyle · 22nd May 2005, 01:49 PM

It really looks like a folded blade; from what we've been reading this would be inconsistent with displaying a wootz pattern? A sword in the hand will tell, I suppose. I have seen photographs and film of current Pakistan wherein merchants were selling new swords to natives (as well as guns; supposedly the gunsmiths in Pakistan can and will copy any gun for you, including, sometimes, the marks). These can have been faked/misreported in some way, of course? Not that it's the main weapon, but I think it might be a desired symbol, etc. And on the other hand, I think of recent film I've seen of Tibetan herdsman, wearing swords, presumeably for theft deterence.

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2005, 04:57 PM

Very true that in regions now part of Pakistan, especially in the Khyber Pass area, the gunsmiths are phenomenal. The one city that comes to mind is Darra, and it seems I have seen this city focused on in some National Geographic article showing walls full of guns in shops and bazaars. These are so faithfully reproduced it is often hard to discern the duplicate from original for the layman. The Pathan tribes have always been amazing at crafting all manner of weaponry, and their 'ancient' jezails are legendary. Throughout the 19th century these constantly refurbished guns often carried venerable EIC locks, and these markings were faithfully reproduced on the locks produced by the gunsmiths well into the 20th century, and probably still are. I recall many years ago having an EIC percussion pistol with the rampant lion marking and being told this was a typical relatively recent Khyber product rather than the c.1840 example presumed.Ouch!!! I certainly couldn't tell the difference! then.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 25th May 2005, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The three dots or circles have to do with the 'trimurti' and this symbol is key to Hindu as well as Buddhist symbolism, which as Rick has noted, carries rather detailed explanation. The three dot symbol is often seen on tulwar blades, often subtly marked and not usually joined with a 'trade' marking such as the sickle motif seen here.

Best regards,
Jim

I doubt that the three dots represent 'trimurti', I think they must have another meaning. I have never seen them placed like that on a blade, the triangle has been turned a bit. The 'trimurti' is always place just under, and close to the hilt, not half way down the blade.
Have a look at the attached.

Jens

capt.smash · 25th May 2005, 06:22 PM

I have received it now and it is sharp and the blade is laminated

[no damascus pattern though]some 1 has cleaned the blade bright through some process ....im going to try some lemon juice etch to see if it shows up anything. As for the 2 sets of three dots ...of interest is that the second set [the uneven one]the uneven dot was made by a diffrent punch than the rest so it seems that it was made uneven on purpose for some reason.

20th May 2005, 08:09 PM	#1
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	Tulwar markings? Hi all , can anybody translate the inscription on this tulwar blade?Also can anybody tell me anything about the makers marks? Attached Images

21st May 2005, 06:40 PM	#6
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	HI guys thanks for the replys i havent actualy got my hands on this yet i braught it on impulse....however the more i look at it now the more i suspect that it is newer than i thaught...its just seems to prestine ,flawless blade edge no real ware to the inlay on handle...hmmm .Tom the blade does seem folded there are definate cold shuts on one side of the blade so i think the blade is functional....here are some aditional pics.What do you think am i a sucker? Attached Images

21st May 2005, 06:53 PM	#8
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	I think its just the angle the blade is 28" Attached Images

20th May 2005, 10:06 PM	#2
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	The words are Bism Ellah Ar-Rahman Ar-rahim. "In the name of God the Compassionate, the merciful."

20th May 2005, 10:33 PM	#3
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	Thanks Aqtai thats exellent thank you.

21st May 2005, 02:56 AM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	I have heard of the stamped marks being referred to as "eyelash" or "sickle" marks. They could be armoury marks from an unknown armoury. Not much is known on armoury markings for Indian swords. The marks probably first originated as imitations of similar marks found on early European swords and I believe these marks were thought to originally to be Italian and later copied by other European smiths as marks of quality. India imported large amounts of European blades and probably associated this mark with blades of quality and themselves imitated the mark to portray quality. Jim, I am sure, can expound on these markings but this is a basic introduction.

21st May 2005, 10:53 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The triple dots are said to be a symbol of Tamerlane. Other than that I don't know what they mean (or the "eyelashes", let alone the straight double houndstooth thing.......hmmmmm.....eyelashes or toothy mouths? Are these seen on anything but blades? Both the triple dots and the "eyelashes" are common and widespread on swords from India to Mooroco, in my experience. The triple dots are usually in a smaller triangle, it seems to me, and I haven't seen them as little "hollow" circles, but it still looks like the same mark; 3 dots, individually struck (note the irregular orientation) but intended in an equalateral triangle. All the marks look larger and crisper and better defined than is usual; I don't neccessarily want to up and call that a mark of modernity, but I'm not sure what it is. Likewise I don't know about the double "eyelashes" facing each other like that on a SE blade; it is somewhat my impression they tend to occur in "ones" on SE blades, and seem to relate somehow to the edge. Sword appears to be foled steel?

21st May 2005, 06:44 PM	#7
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I don't really know much about tulwars, although I have seen them at Militaria fairs. I don't know if it's just the angle at which the photo was taken, but is that blade a bit short?

21st May 2005, 08:11 PM	#9
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi, Two questions: is the blade sharp, or has it been sharpened at some stage? Is that a hint of a wootz pattern, or is the pic fooling me? I've seen easily over 100 "tourist" market swords from Iran and Rajastan, and NONE of them ever had a sharpened blade, and none of them showed a wootz pattern, but nearly always a definite mechanical damascus pattern. Yours doesn't look like them, at least from your pics. Even the koftgari looks different. It may not be ancient, but looks to be a serviceable fighting sword. -d

21st May 2005, 08:25 PM	#10
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	Hi im not sure yet how sharp it is as it hasnt arived yet.It was the sugestion of wootz that made me go for it but now ive looked at the pics again im not optomistic.

22nd May 2005, 05:36 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	The markings on the blade of this tulwar are perfectly explained by Rick, and the so called 'sickle' marks are indicative of European trade blades that were often copied by armourers in Afghanistan and Northern India. These are most commonly associated with early Genoan parallel markings that appear to have been adopted by makers in Styria and the Caucusus, among others. It does seem that they occur on most Afghan paluoar blades, at least examples I have seen. The linear multi diamond figure between the toothed semi circles seems atypical of most applications of this marking, but may be embellishment for effect. This marking would have been simply for quality assertion and would not have to do with any armoury markings I have seen. The three dots or circles have to do with the 'trimurti' and this symbol is key to Hindu as well as Buddhist symbolism, which as Rick has noted, carries rather detailed explanation. The three dot symbol is often seen on tulwar blades, often subtly marked and not usually joined with a 'trade' marking such as the sickle motif seen here. Looks like a nice example, probably latter 19th century, and the hilt seems to suggest Rajasthan as the elements and motif resemble others I've seen that are said to be from there. Best regards, Jim

22nd May 2005, 01:30 PM	#13
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	Thanks guys exellent replys,very interesting

22nd May 2005, 01:49 PM	#14
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It really looks like a folded blade; from what we've been reading this would be inconsistent with displaying a wootz pattern? A sword in the hand will tell, I suppose. I have seen photographs and film of current Pakistan wherein merchants were selling new swords to natives (as well as guns; supposedly the gunsmiths in Pakistan can and will copy any gun for you, including, sometimes, the marks). These can have been faked/misreported in some way, of course? Not that it's the main weapon, but I think it might be a desired symbol, etc. And on the other hand, I think of recent film I've seen of Tibetan herdsman, wearing swords, presumeably for theft deterence.

22nd May 2005, 04:57 PM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Very true that in regions now part of Pakistan, especially in the Khyber Pass area, the gunsmiths are phenomenal. The one city that comes to mind is Darra, and it seems I have seen this city focused on in some National Geographic article showing walls full of guns in shops and bazaars. These are so faithfully reproduced it is often hard to discern the duplicate from original for the layman. The Pathan tribes have always been amazing at crafting all manner of weaponry, and their 'ancient' jezails are legendary. Throughout the 19th century these constantly refurbished guns often carried venerable EIC locks, and these markings were faithfully reproduced on the locks produced by the gunsmiths well into the 20th century, and probably still are. I recall many years ago having an EIC percussion pistol with the rampant lion marking and being told this was a typical relatively recent Khyber product rather than the c.1840 example presumed.Ouch!!! I certainly couldn't tell the difference! then. Best regards, Jim

25th May 2005, 06:22 PM	#17
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	I have received it now and it is sharp and the blade is laminated [no damascus pattern though]some 1 has cleaned the blade bright through some process ....im going to try some lemon juice etch to see if it shows up anything. As for the 2 sets of three dots ...of interest is that the second set [the uneven one]the uneven dot was made by a diffrent punch than the rest so it seems that it was made uneven on purpose for some reason.