Two Salawar yataghans - khyber knives

[Emanuel]

Thought I'd post these two khybers just because these haven't shown up on the forum in a while and because they're my first. They're quite beeffy, the blades are 22 and 24 inches long. I understand the wooden hilt is an old replacement. Both have quite a bit of weight and would make fearsome weapons I imagine. These are called salawar yataghan but their construction is so much different from that of yataghans. Could folks post their yats with T-spine for comparison?

Comments are very welcome.
Eamnuel

[ariel]

I do not know why, but I was always partial to old Afghani/Central Asian weapons.
Nice pieces, man! Nothing fancy, nothing elegantly technological, just pure utilitarian raw killing machines. Quintessential weapons of poor but ferociously proud and ruthless people.

[katana]

Nice functional pieces

[Emanuel]

I can see how the Brits were terrified by these. Awesome cutters. Now my big problem is I have to let one of them go. I got the two for a very good deal and must sell one to cover other purchases They both have lots of character.

[TVV]

Are the grips on the slightly loger one a recent replacement? If so, this would be the one that I would part with if I were you.

[Emanuel]

Yes Teodor, that's the one. My thought was the same, the other one has intact horn scales and that's a major point in its favour. The blade is somewhat more pitted and rusted on the other side though. I will decide after proper cleaning.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

I can see how the Brits were terrified by these. .

Where does that presumably well reserched statement come from?



Spiral

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Could folks post their yats with T-spine for comparison?

Comments are very welcome.
Eamnuel

they look like mine, here's my salawar yataghan, surprisingly light, agile & well balanced. 21.5 in. blade, 27 in. loa. if you hold the spine on a desktop, there is in fact a subtle yataghan-like 'S' curve to the spine. you can see it in the photo if you know it's there. the edge appears to be unrecurved tho.


my karakulak yataghan of more 'normal' curves is not t-spined

(the scabbard is home made out of a disassembled tourist tulwar one to give me some place to keep it. )

[ariel]

Originally Posted by spiral

Where does that presumably well reserched statement come from?



Spiral

Kipling, "Young British Soldier"
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

[Lew]

Here is a short one 12-14inch blade.

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by spiral

Where does that presumably well reserched statement come from?



Spiral

picked it up from one quote or another floating around this forum at some point in the last three years. Some were indeed from Kipling, as Ariel noted, others were from somewhere else. There was specific mention of the khyber knife. And besides, the British were probably the only modern occupant that got to see this big knife in action. Afterwards modern guns took over, no?
I suppose I could track those quotes down...but from that wink of yours I don't think I need to.

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

It's true that both of mine also have a slight recurve on the spine, on the third of the blade closest to the tip. Lew that one look like it was cut down from a bigger one.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ariel

Kipling, "Young British Soldier"
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Ahh these are girls knives then!

I live & learn!

Spiral

[katana]

Originally Posted by ariel

Kipling, "Young British Soldier"
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

It was my understanding that this type of sword was indigenous to the mountainous regions of Afghanistan and India, hence being a short sword. Surely larger swords would be employed whilst fighting "on Afghanistan's plains".....

Most of the conflict with the hill tribes were difficult for the British due to the tribes mens skill with firearms, their 'local' knowledge of the terrain and their guerrilla tactics.....

Regards David

[Rick]

" A scrimmage in a Border Station—
A canter down some dark defile—
Two thousand pounds of education Drops to a ten-rupee jezail—

The Crammer’s boast, the Squadron’s pride,
Shot like a rabbit in a ride! "

R.K.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Lew that one look like it was cut down from a bigger one.

Manolo

Nope thats this one's original size and shape.

Lew

[katana]

Hi Emanuel,
here my Khyber Knife ...with a straight edge along side to show the curveture of the blade. It has great balance and a very sharp edge.....one of my favorites

[ariel]

Originally Posted by katana

It was my understanding that this type of sword was indigenous to the mountainous regions of Afghanistan and India, hence being a short sword. Surely larger swords would be employed whilst fighting "on Afghanistan's plains".....

Most of the conflict with the hill tribes were difficult for the British due to the tribes mens skill with firearms, their 'local' knowledge of the terrain and their guerrilla tactics.....

Regards David

Poetic license, old son


Besides, had it been "... left in the mountains", what rhyme could old Ruddy use? " Fountains"? Too decadent... Kind of reminds of doe-eyed houries, rather than vicious Afghani hags

[ariel]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Here is a short one 12-14inch blade.

Please compare this Khyber (Lew's) with all other examples posted here: I once asked ( and got no answer) whether different pommels indicate different localities, tribes etc.
Any takers?

[Emanuel]

Lew's example is like a choora. Choora handles are markedly different from the simple horn scales on most of the big salawar yataghans. Could there be a functional reason for this? If not then my guess is that it's a geographic/ethnic variation. Stone states that the big khyber knives belonged to the Afridi tribe living in the Khyber pass. Perhaps the choora and karud handles belong to some of the other Pashtun and misc tribes.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Manolo

picked it up from one quote or another floating around this forum at some point in the last three years. Some were indeed from Kipling, as Ariel noted, others were from somewhere else. There was specific mention of the khyber knife. And besides, the British were probably the only modern occupant that got to see this big knife in action. Afterwards modern guns took over, no?
I suppose I could track those quotes down...but from that wink of yours I don't think I need to.

Emanuel

No research required Emmanuel, I just cant imagine any empire men bieng scared of an inanimate object! {Although the lawmakers & many citizens of today are decidly more nervous of big knives! }

Spiral

[katana]

Originally Posted by ariel

Poetic license, old son


Besides, had it been "... left in the mountains", what rhyme could old Ruddy use? " Fountains"? Too decadent... Kind of reminds of doe-eyed houries, rather than vicious Afghani hags

I see your point
..... anyway "one" does pronounce it 'mount anes' ...don't you know. Its the "commoners" that pronounce it 'mount ins'. So with "one's" blue blood status ( ) I can easily see that 'plains' could easily be replaced with 'mountanes'

Regards
13542425562677th in succession to the throne of England

[ariel]

Prince Harry with his Queen English was just pulled out of Afghanistan.
The remains, with plain brains, speak Cockney

[Jim McDougall]

So does anyone have any thoughts on why these were called Salawar Yataghans? or where the term might have originated?

[Jeff Pringle]

At an auction last year, one of these caused a bit of a stir. It had a metal hilt with fairly intact original koftgari, and a blade (that looked to me to be) of high-quality wootz although that was not called out in the description or immediately obvious in the hand, the blade having been cleaned up with abrasives but not re-etched. Unfortunately, the blade was afflicted with not just spots of rust, but craters that went half-way through the blade in places.
Despite those blemishes, bidding in the room quickly took it up to somewhere between 2 and 3 thousand dollars, and then continued between two telephone bidders all the way to 7 K. So there was a nice, long stretch where everyone in the room was out of the game and could only watch, with ever increasing awe & incredulity as the price climbed and the bidding rhythm slowed, until the hammer finally fell and they could get on with their auction.
There was one of those ‘collective sighs of relief’ moments when one of the two bidders finally gave up.
Nice knife!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Manolo

picked it up from one quote or another floating around this forum at some point in the last three years. Some were indeed from Kipling, as Ariel noted, others were from somewhere else. There was specific mention of the khyber knife. And besides, the British were probably the only modern occupant that got to see this big knife in action. Afterwards modern guns took over, no?
I suppose I could track those quotes down...but from that wink of yours I don't think I need to.

Emanuel

I'm not sure of any quotes that stated that the British were afraid of the deadly Khyber knives, but since we have already cited Kipling, I found these.
It would seem that 'fear' might not be the exact word, but for certain, the British were keenly aware of the 'Khyber' in specific, and seem to have carried a certain respect for them and in degree, the warriors.

"...they have taken the oath of the Brother in the blood and fire of the fresh cut sod; on the hilt and the haft of the Khyber knife, and the wondrous names of God."
-"Ballad of East and West", Kipling


"...Yur Khan drew clear the Khyber knife and struck, and sheathed again".
-The Ballad of the Kings Mercy", Kipling

Best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

mmmm thanks Jim,

The British were knew of the Gurkha the Pathan & the Sikh as also recorded according to Kipling .

We bought or killed most of their leaders usualy.... But the only the "Fuzzy wuzzys" got his ultimate respect. as the man himself said while in the Early Campaigns of the
Sudan Expeditionary Force,
---------------------------------------------------------------

"Fuzzy-Wuzzy"

"We've fought with many men acrost the seas,
..........And some of 'em was brave an' some was not:
The Paythan an' the Zulu an' Burmese;
..........But the Fuzzy was the finest o' the lot.
We never got a ha'porth's change of 'im:
..........'E squatted in the scrub and 'ocked our 'orses,
'E cut our sentries up at Suakim,
..........An' 'e played the cat an' banjo with our forces.
...............So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in the Soudan;
...............Yore a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
...............We gives you your certificate, an' if you want it signed,
...............We'll come an' 'ave a romp with you whenever you're inclined.



We took our chanst among the Kyber 'ills,
..........The Boers knocked us silly at a mile,
The Burman guv us Irriwaddy chills,
..........An' a Zulu impi dished us up in style:
But all we ever got from such as they
..........Was pop to what the Fuzzy made us swaller;
We 'eld our bloomin' own, the papers say,
..........But man for man the Fuzzy knocked us 'oller.
...............Then 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, an' the missis and the kid:
...............Our orders was to break you, an' of course we went an' did.
...............We sloshed you with Martinis, an' it wasn't 'ardly fair;
...............But for all the odds agin' you, Fuzzy-Wuz, you broke the square.



'E 'asn't got no papers of 'is own,
..........'E 'asn't got no medals nor rewards,
So we must certify the skill 'e's shown
..........In usin' of 'is long two-'anded swords:
When 'e's 'oppin' in an' out among the bush
..........With 'is coffin-'eaded shield an' shovel-spear,
An 'appy day with Fuzzy on the rush
..........Will last an 'ealthy Tommy for a year.
...............So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, an' your friends which are no more,
...............If we 'adn't lost some messmates we would 'elp you to deplore.
...............But give an' take's the gospel, an' we'll call the bargain fair,
...............For if you 'ave lost more than us, you crumpled up the square!
'E rushes at the smoke when we let drive,
..........An', before we know, 'e's 'ackin' at our 'ead;
'E's all 'ot sand an' ginger when alive,
..........An' 'e's generally shammin' when 'e's dead.
'E's a daisy, 'e's a ducky, 'e's a lamb!
..........'E's a injia-rubber idiot on a spree,
'E's the on'y thing that doesn't give a damn
..........For a Regiment o' British Infantree!



...............So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in the Soudan;
...............You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
...............An' 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, with your 'ayrick 'ead of 'air -
...............You big black boundin' beggar - for you broke a British square! "


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not a man to be scared of a big knife I think.... But he respected a fighter, my understanding is that was the usual Brit. approch , kill em or Buy em. But respect a fighter. It worked well.

You dont enslave half the world bieng timid.... of course the technology helped then as it does in war today

Strange its still war in the same countries...... Or not I guess.

Spiral

[Emanuel]

Hi Jim and Spiral,

I really have no idea where I picked that up. It was something about an individual soldier or some British individual writing about the khyber. The feelings it conveyed were awe and yes, fear. I admit my generalization of the British fearing the khyber was incorrect. Knives are no match for guns and superior tactics, after all. Now I will try to dig that damn quote up just to lay things to rest

I like that poem, Spiral. It's an inspiring way to remember the Hadendoa.

Cheers!
Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Jim and Spiral,

I really have no idea where I picked that up. It was something about an individual soldier or some British individual writing about the khyber. The feelings it conveyed were awe and yes, fear. I admit my generalization of the British fearing the khyber was incorrect. Knives are no match for guns and superior tactics, after all. Now I will try to dig that damn quote up just to lay things to rest

I like that poem, Spiral. It's an inspiring way to remember the Hadendoa.

Cheers!
Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,
I can totally relate.....I cant stand it when there is a reference or a quote I cant relocate! It makes me want to put everything on some kind of tape or recording!!

All the best,
Jim

[spiral]

Ok Emmanuel, I admit all my posts were a bit tounge in cheek , but yes the "Empire Men" seemed to do ok in those days.

I agree its a great way to remember the Hadendoa.

Spiral