Rondel dagger

messia · 15th June 2016, 07:37 PM

Hello colleagues by collectors, I recently bought a dagger in one of the old collector and want to know your opinion.

fernando · 16th June 2016, 01:06 PM

Welcome to the forum, messia

.
Interesting piece indeed. Let us see what the knowledged members say about it.

messia · 16th June 2016, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Welcome to the forum, messia

.
Interesting piece indeed. Let us see what the knowledged members say about it.

Yes. Thank you for your interest in waiting for responses.

corrado26 · 16th June 2016, 02:14 PM

I think this item is a not very old piece. At least the blade is probably made from the blade of a French Lebel bajonet M 1916. Compare the added fotos please.
regards
corrado26

Roland_M · 16th June 2016, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

I think this item is a not very old piece. At least the blade is probably made from the blade of a French Lebel bajonet M 1916.
corrado26

The Lebel has a round base, but the rondel dagger has a rectangular tang.

The dagger is either from 19th century historicism but more probably a genuine piece from 14th to 16th century in very well condition.

If the dagger is real, it is an very extraordinary well preserved piece and pretty rare.

Roland

CSinTX · 16th June 2016, 05:29 PM

The blade looks to me to show signs of being older but a shortened blade coming from another source. Maybe a 19th C bayonet from something else? The guard and pommel look to be newer. Maybe some better pictures of ends of them?

corrado26 · 16th June 2016, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

The Lebel has a round base, but the rondel dagger has a rectangular tang.

Today it should not make great problems to get a rectangular base out of a round base by help of heat and high pressure. Sorry, but for me this dagger is a fake.
corrado26

messia · 16th June 2016, 05:58 PM

more photo

messia · 16th June 2016, 10:10 PM

more foto

Bob A · 17th June 2016, 05:43 AM

It looks to me to be an interesting assembly of previously unrelated parts.

The blank surfaces of the pommel and guard do not seem to belong on the same object as the hilt, which itself can't seem to decide how it intends to be decorated. The cruciform marking is not in keeping with the other decoration.

Bear in mind, I know little or nothing about this sort of dagger, so you're getting an opinion backed only by my aging eyesight.

stekemest · 17th June 2016, 11:01 AM

Looks modern to me.

messia · 17th June 2016, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stekemest

Looks modern to me.

Dagger is not modern, I bought a dagger in the old collector, collector bought the knife from an old friend, age Dagger minimum 80 years was in the hands of these people

corrado26 · 17th June 2016, 02:40 PM

Oh I understand, the collector was old, the friend was old, so the dagger must be old too. May be, but the bajonet M 1916 is old too
corrado26

Roland_M · 17th June 2016, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Oh I understand, the collector was old, the friend was old, so the dagger must be old too. May be, but the bajonet M 1916 is old too
corrado26

No reason to be cynical. How about a picture as a clear evidence of your bayonet-theory?

Here is your M1916. Are you really sure, that this is the same blade?

Roland

fernando · 17th June 2016, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

No reason to be cynical...

A good point !

corrado26 · 17th June 2016, 03:47 PM

This is not a M/16-LEBEL bajonet! Look at the foto of a Lebel-M/16 and compare

Roland_M · 17th June 2016, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

This is not a M/16-LEBEL bajonet! Look at the foto of a Lebel-M/16 and compare

The Lebel has a round base but the base of the dagger is rectangular!

The middle ridge of the Lebel is thicker than the dagger and finally the tip is completely different.

I am sure, this blade doesn't come from a Lebel or another well known mass produced bayonet.

Roland

corrado26 · 17th June 2016, 04:34 PM

Please, have a look to post 7
corrado26

cornelistromp · 17th June 2016, 11:07 PM

the dagger under discusion is a well kknown type of all steel roundel dagger , Germany around 1400.
this type of stabbing dagger is Long, around 40-42 cm.

see pictures of the same type
based on the Pictures, marks, excecution and extreme length, I tend with dating of this dagger more to a later reproduction, I think i have seen the dagger before but cannot remember where it was.

M ELEY · 18th June 2016, 05:30 AM

Good catch, Jasper!! I agree that it looks much newer. Historismus?
Mark

messia · 21st June 2016, 09:58 PM

add photos from another phone

15th June 2016, 07:37 PM	#1
messia Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 31	Rondel dagger Hello colleagues by collectors, I recently bought a dagger in one of the old collector and want to know your opinion. Attached Images

16th June 2016, 02:14 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	I think this item is a not very old piece. At least the blade is probably made from the blade of a French Lebel bajonet M 1916. Compare the added fotos please. regards corrado26 Attached Images

16th June 2016, 05:58 PM	#8
messia Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 31	more photo Attached Images

16th June 2016, 10:10 PM	#9
messia Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 31	more foto Attached Images

17th June 2016, 03:47 PM	#16
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	This is not a M/16-LEBEL bajonet! Look at the foto of a Lebel-M/16 and compare Attached Images

16th June 2016, 01:06 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, messia . Interesting piece indeed. Let us see what the knowledged members say about it.

16th June 2016, 05:29 PM	#6
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	The blade looks to me to show signs of being older but a shortened blade coming from another source. Maybe a 19th C bayonet from something else? The guard and pommel look to be newer. Maybe some better pictures of ends of them?

17th June 2016, 05:43 AM	#10
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 429	It looks to me to be an interesting assembly of previously unrelated parts. The blank surfaces of the pommel and guard do not seem to belong on the same object as the hilt, which itself can't seem to decide how it intends to be decorated. The cruciform marking is not in keeping with the other decoration. Bear in mind, I know little or nothing about this sort of dagger, so you're getting an opinion backed only by my aging eyesight.

17th June 2016, 11:01 AM	#11
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Looks modern to me.

17th June 2016, 02:40 PM	#13
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Oh I understand, the collector was old, the friend was old, so the dagger must be old too. May be, but the bajonet M 1916 is old too corrado26

17th June 2016, 04:34 PM	#18
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Please, have a look to post 7 corrado26

17th June 2016, 11:07 PM	#19
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	the dagger under discusion is a well kknown type of all steel roundel dagger , Germany around 1400. this type of stabbing dagger is Long, around 40-42 cm. see pictures of the same type based on the Pictures, marks, excecution and extreme length, I tend with dating of this dagger more to a later reproduction, I think i have seen the dagger before but cannot remember where it was. Attached Images

18th June 2016, 05:30 AM	#20
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Good catch, Jasper!! I agree that it looks much newer. Historismus? Mark

21st June 2016, 09:58 PM	#21
messia Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 31	add photos from another phone Attached Images