Indian Swords with downward curving blades

[Miguel]

Hi Everyone,
I would welcome your comments and if possible the correct Indian names for these weapons. It is possible that they may be Nepalese but I think that they are Indian swords with a blade style adopted from the Gurkhas, I find it strange that the Indians who have given names to all their weapons have not given these weapons a particular name which leads me to think that they also used the name Kukri. I think that the decorated item was made for Religious or Ceremonial occasions or for the Tourist trade. The plain item is a fighting weapon and has a blade stamp which I am also hoping someone may be able to translate. The overall length of the plain one is 22 ins with a blade length of 16.5 ins and width of 1.5 ins, the dimensions of the decorated one are overall length 20.25 ins, blade length 16 ins and width 3.5 ins. Thanking you in advance.
Miguel

[Emanuel]

Here is some information on this type of khukri:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9718

Your top one is indeed for the tourist trade, albeit the early-20th century variety, so it's still old.

The bottom one looks more like the fighting kind.

Emanuel

[ariel]

Isn't the lower one a Sossun Pata?

[Emanuel]

Semantics, but no.
It has a cho/kaudi, so it's a khukri

Here are more:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...36&postcount=9

[Jim McDougall]

Well put Emanuel, and as noted, the choil (a distinct kukri feature) as well as the wider (kopis type) profile place this more in the kukri range.
The sosun pattah is characterized by the recurve and inside cutting edge, but not with this type blade. As always, these classifications become quite vague as these variations occur in diffusion of forms.

It seems to me that in the Bengal regions nearer to Nepal, such variations occur with kora hilted with the Indo-Persian hilt (as here) and much stouter, heavier blade more like a ram dao. These often have the eye or decoration near blade tip, and I have understood these to have been used as a sacrificial weapon with doves. The one I had still had vestiges of the red paint apparently applied to augment symbolic details of the blade.

I would consider that this kukri like version may have perhaps also been used in that manner but not necessarily for doves as in Bengal.
I am curious on the deep stamp at blade center, and what script or language might be in it. It resembles the deep stamps often seen on early tulwar blades in the Northwest regions of India, such as with trisula or stamps in Urdu.

The first example with the brass pavilion theme decoration does seem like it was in a discussion years ago (besides the thread you linked) and the production of souvenier items for British forces was noted. It seems to me that this cottage industry pretty much evolved after Omdurman in the Anglo Egyptian Sudan occupation, at least in notable subsidized production of these 'souveniers'.

[Battara]

.....and besides the sossoun pata is a lot longer, the blade basically being not just sword length, but also usually the size and shape of the Ottoman yataghan.

Another thought is that some of the early kukris were much larger than most of the ones we see today.

[ariel]

Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-)

Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin.
But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas .

Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average?

Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one.

What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable.

Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful!

Please see Artzi's description of:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487

[ariel]

Just an example: 3 Sosun Patas.
The upper one has an 18th century real Ottoman blade ( the mastique is old and crumbling, so it is not a recent remounting)
The middle one is also yataghan-like, but not quite.
The lower one is a totally different animal:-)

[ariel]

And another one: size of a Kukri, but no Cho. There was an opinion that it might be a reshaped Kora. Perhaps. But it has a perfectly fitting very old scabbard, so the owner of even the reworked weapon saw nothing unusual in its new incarnation.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-)

Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin.
But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas .

Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average?

Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one.

What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable.

Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful!

Please see Artzi's description of:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487

Well supported rebuttal, and excellently stated perspective .

[Ian]

Ariel:

I agree that there could easily be some mingling of styles between the kukri and sossun patta. Both are recurved blades, and I could see a Rajput warrior saying something like, "I want a sossun patta that is a bit shorter than usual for close quarter work, but heavier in the belly--a bit like that one from Nepal you showed me the other day, only longer." These types of discussion must have gone on for centuries among men-at-arms of all races and nations. The search for a perfect weapon for a particular task must have been never ending, borrowing from here and there trying to get it right.

The Mongols, of course, unhesitatingly adopted whatever they thought was useful, simply absorbing (and being absorbed by) all they conquered. Since we are dealing with a Mughal (Mongol) influenced weapon in the sossun patta, I'm sure their instincts would have been to modify and improve it any way that seemed useful.

Ian

[Jens Nordlunde]

As can be seen in many stone reliefs and hero stones, it is known that forward curves 'knives' in earlier times were used in Deccan/south India.
It is hard to say how long they were, but it seems as if they were shorter than the swords used at the time.
Why they 'moved' to the north is hard to say, but it could be, as I read somewhere, that a population was driven away, and went to the north, bringing their weapos and culture with them.

[Miguel]

Hi, I would like to thank yu all for participating in this thread which has proved most interesting todate.
Emanuel I thoroughly enjoyed the links but the conflicts of opinion between the reference works and "experts" can be somewhat confusing.

Jim, Thanks for your comments although I don't agree with your thoughts on the plain weapon being for sacrificial purposes, if it was I believe it would have some decoration or inscription. I believe it to be a purely fighting weapon due to its robust no nonsense construction and well forged blade. I just hope that someone will translate or identify the stamp so that a region in either India or Nepal can be identified.

Ariel, Thanks for your comments, images and links which show very clearly that the plain weapon is a hybrid Kukri / Sosson Pattah which I am pleased about because it is what I thought but did not mention it as I did not wish to lead anybody.

Ian, Thanks that is a more than likely possible scenario.

Jens, Thanks for your interesting comments which sooner or later will be confirmed researchers in this field.

I am still surprised that this hybrid weapon does not appear to have definitive name. The Kora which was also copied by the Indians and fitted with a Talwar hilt has two Indian names being known as a Jamadhar Teg or a Kharga.
Miguel

[Emanuel]

That's why I said semantics Ariel

If this sword came from a Nepalese armoury, a Nepalese would probably call it a khukri.
If it came from a Mughal armoury a Mughal might call it a sossoun pata.
A Rajput might call it...and so on.

The cho is generally characteristic of khukri. The rest is semantics

Confusing indeed Miguel.

[Jim McDougall]

Good point Miguel, and quite true, this very well have been a combat weapon. It does seem that the sacrificial examples would have had more symbolic decoration, though not always. It would be interesting if we could know more on that deep stamp.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

That's why I said semantics Ariel

If this sword came from a Nepalese armoury, a Nepalese would probably call it a khukri.
If it came from a Mughal armoury a Mughal might call it a sossoun pata.
A Rajput might call it...and so on.

The cho is generally characteristic of khukri. The rest is semantics

Confusing indeed Miguel.

Hi Emanuel, I have reached the conclusion that you are correct in this case it is semantics.
Regards. Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Good point Miguel, and quite true, this very well have been a combat weapon. It does seem that the sacrificial examples would have had more symbolic decoration, though not always. It would be interesting if we could know more on that deep stamp.

Hi Jim, Thanks for your reply. I must admit that since posting this thread I have learned a lot more information about Nepalese weapons making me realize how little I new before. It has made me look at them in a different light and do more research. From old threads and websites the information gleaned can be most confusing. You would think that as Nepal has only two principle weapons the origins would be clear, particularly the Kukri being such an iconic weapon but no one knows r sure although there are plenty of theories most of which seem plausible but none which can be conclusively proved. I must admit to subscribing to the Kopis theory and adopted from the the downward curving weapons of the Rajputs, but since seeing images of the earliest known Kukri against an old Kora (Kouda) my thinking has changed to it being derived from these weapons, but I guess we may never know.
Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.
Regards. Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Try to have a look at post 12.
I write that the people moved to the north.
I am sorry that I can not help you any more, but I read it very long time ago, so I dont yet remember where I read it, and I have no notes about it.
My guess would be, that you should make a search of a whole population moving from Deccan to the north, after a big battle in the 10th to the 13th century.
I may be wrong, but this is as I remember it, and it was many years ago I read it.
Jens

[russel]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Jim, Thanks for your reply. I must admit that since posting this thread I have learned a lot more information about Nepalese weapons making me realize how little I new before. It has made me look at them in a different light and do more research. From old threads and websites the information gleaned can be most confusing. You would think that as Nepal has only two principle weapons the origins would be clear, particularly the Kukri being such an iconic weapon but no one knows r sure although there are plenty of theories most of which seem plausible but none which can be conclusively proved. I must admit to subscribing to the Kopis theory and adopted from the the downward curving weapons of the Rajputs, but since seeing images of the earliest known Kukri against an old Kora (Kouda) my thinking has changed to it being derived from these weapons, but I guess we may never know.
Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.
Regards. Miguel

Lovely Kora, stunning quillwork on the scabbard.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Jim, Thanks for your reply. I must admit that since posting this thread I have learned a lot more information about Nepalese weapons making me realize how little I new before. It has made me look at them in a different light and do more research. From old threads and websites the information gleaned can be most confusing. You would think that as Nepal has only two principle weapons the origins would be clear, particularly the Kukri being such an iconic weapon but no one knows r sure although there are plenty of theories most of which seem plausible but none which can be conclusively proved. I must admit to subscribing to the Kopis theory and adopted from the the downward curving weapons of the Rajputs, but since seeing images of the earliest known Kukri against an old Kora (Kouda) my thinking has changed to it being derived from these weapons, but I guess we may never know.
Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.
Regards. Miguel

Miguel, thank you for posting this outstanding kora! You are right, every time we think we have things pretty much cornered on the arms of certain cultures, regions and classifications .....more is revealed and we find that all we have done is added more questions
After decades of study I can consider myself a somewhat advanced novice.
Excellent posts and discussion, nicely done.

Jens, with the mountains of obscure and esoteric material you have plowed through for these many years, I think it quite acceptable that your source might me out of reach at the moment!

[Miguel]

[QUOTE=russel]Lovely Kora, stunning quillwork on the scabbard.[/QUOTE

Hi Russel, Glad you liked it.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Try to have a look at post 12.
I write that the people moved to the north.
I am sorry that I can not help you any more, but I read it very long time ago, so I dont yet remember where I read it, and I have no notes about it.
My guess would be, that you should make a search of a whole population moving from Deccan to the north, after a big battle in the 10th to the 13th century.
I may be wrong, but this is as I remember it, and it was many years ago I read it.
Jens

Hi Jens,
Thanks for the pointer, as you know India was pretty much in turmoil during the period you quote what with the Muslim invasion, Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni, the Tamil king Chola invasion and last but not least the Mongol invasion which must of caused mass emigration of people escaping death, slavery and religious persecution but where they bended up settling at this time I have not yet discovered, thank you for inspiring me to carry out this research it is proving most interesting but I do have a problem with identifying the locations from the old names. Some years ago I purchased a book entitled, "The Oxford History of India," from my local library book sale for 50p the best 50p I have spent as this book is proving most helpful in this research.
Kind regards. Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
I will see if I can find somthing else. It is in one of my books - but I have a lot, and in which of them is it?
It is a very interesting subject, so I will give it a try.
Jens

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Print from 1820 showing quite clearly some weapons.
Regards,
Norman.


This coloured aquatint was made by Robert Havell and Son from plate 13 of JB Fraser's 'Views in the Himala Mountains'.
Fraser's brother William was a political agent to Major-General Martindell during the Nepal campaigns of 1814-15, when the Gurkha Empire was about the size of Great Britain and was unified for the first time in its history. James Fraser accompanied him at that time, commenting that the men of the Nepalese army "had much of the true and high spirit of a soldier", admiring the Gurkhas' sturdiness, strength and courage. As the war progressed, Gurkhas who capitulated were received into British service, joining William's detachment, which became known as Fraser's Irregulars. At the end of the war Gurkha regiments were incorporated into both the Indian and British armies and William was considered one of the founders of these regiments.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Baillie_Fraser

[Miguel]

Hi Norman,

Thank you for a most interesting image showing the Himalayas as the backdrop to the assembled warriors and for the link which proved fascinating reading. What I found interesting about the pile of weapons and on the assembled warriors was the lack of Kukris but there were plenty of what I think were Koras, most interesting.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Norman,

Thank you for a most interesting image showing the Himalayas as the backdrop to the assembled warriors and for the link which proved fascinating reading. What I found interesting about the pile of weapons and on the assembled warriors was the lack of Kukris but there were plenty of what I think were Koras, most interesting.
Miguel

Sorry Norman, Please ignore my comment about lack of Kukris, I have just noticed piles of them underneath the Koras, I am afraid that my vision is not what it used to be.
My apologies.
Miguel

[mrcjgscott]

Dear Miguel,

Firstly my apologies for coming to this thread so late, it obviously slipped under my radar!

Thank you for sharing your kukri's with us. The top one has been correctly identified, infact I saw one last month in quite a famous art collection, with the rest of the suite of arms which accompanied it dispersed around the villa housing the collection. The labels stated acquired in 1904.

Such stands of arms were a very fashionable accessory in well to do households of the time, and as well as the catalogue in Berkley's post, I have seen a similar advertisements in the UK.

The second example certainly means business, almost certainly for fighting rather than sacrifice, although it could accomplish that if required. I am most intrigued by the armoury stamp.

I have seen a few with similar markings, but they are not often found. Would it be possible to see a clearer image? I'll see if I can find any comparable examples.

Originally Posted by Miguel

Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.

Many thanks for showing us the Kora, probably one of the finest I have seen, and stunning when accompanied by that beautiful silver and quill work sheath.

I am yet to acquire a kora, despite having quite a few kukris, and you have certainly given me something to aspire to-thank you!

Kind regards,

Chris

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Dear Miguel,

Firstly my apologies for coming to this thread so late, it obviously slipped under my radar!

Thank you for sharing your kukri's with us. The top one has been correctly identified, infact I saw one last month in quite a famous art collection, with the rest of the suite of arms which accompanied it dispersed around the villa housing the collection. The labels stated acquired in 1904.

Such stands of arms were a very fashionable accessory in well to do households of the time, and as well as the catalogue in Berkley's post, I have seen a similar advertisements in the UK.

The second example certainly means business, almost certainly for fighting rather than sacrifice, although it could accomplish that if required. I am most intrigued by the armoury stamp.

I have seen a few with similar markings, but they are not often found. Would it be possible to see a clearer image? I'll see if I can find any comparable examples.



Many thanks for showing us the Kora, probably one of the finest I have seen, and stunning when accompanied by that beautiful silver and quill work sheath.

I am yet to acquire a kora, despite having quite a few kukris, and you have certainly given me something to aspire to-thank you!

Kind regards,

Chris

Hello Chris,
Thank you for your interesting comments on the Kukris. Apology accepted, better late than never. I have now obtained more than three quotes which fix the time period and use for the wide decorated Kukri and am well satisfied. Not quite so with the plain one although I pretty certain that it's name is a Kukri with a Talwar hilt as obvious as that. A friend of my youngest son owns a business in Katmandu and researching Nepali weapons is one of the services he offers. This person has advised that the blade stamp is 99 per cent Afghanistan and that a number of these blades were produced in the late 18th early 19thC. He pointed out that the Gurkhas were in the North West Frontier for well over 100 years and also in Afghanistan. A contingent apparently as guards for the British installed Sultan. It will be very interesting if your enquiries could confirm this. There is a problem
, however, as my PC decided to stop working yesterday so it will be a while before I will be able to provide you with a clearer image of the blade stamp as I will have to have it repaired or worse purchase a new one. I am sending this reply from my iPad but I can't send photos as systems are not compatible. Your comments on my Kora were most appreciated.
Regards
Miguel

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Chris,
Thank you for your interesting comments on the Kukris. Apology accepted, better late than never. I have now obtained more than three quotes which fix the time period and use for the wide decorated Kukri and am well satisfied. Not quite so with the plain one although I pretty certain that it's name is a Kukri with a Talwar hilt as obvious as that. A friend of my youngest son owns a business in Katmandu and researching Nepali weapons is one of the services he offers. This person has advised that the blade stamp is 99 per cent Afghanistan and that a number of these blades were produced in the late 18th early 19thC. He pointed out that the Gurkhas were in the North West Frontier for well over 100 years and also in Afghanistan. A contingent apparently as guards for the British installed Sultan. It will be very interesting if your enquiries could confirm this. There is a problem
, however, as my PC decided to stop working yesterday so it will be a while before I will be able to provide you with a clearer image of the blade stamp as I will have to have it repaired or worse purchase a new one. I am sending this reply from my iPad but I can't send photos as systems are not compatible. Your comments on my Kora were most appreciated.
Regards
Miguel

Thanks for getting back to me Miguel,

I am sorry to hear of your misfortune with your PC, I hope you can rectify the problem quickly and with the minimum of hassle and financial outlay!

Afghanistan is certainly a possibility for the plainer of your two kukris, although I wouldn't rule it out as being Indian in origin also. I would also revise the age estimate given by your son's friend to mid to late 19th century.

I will start a hunt for the stamp as soon as I return home later this week, and shall let you know if I find any further information.

With kind regards,

Chris

[ariel]

Yes, there are kukris clearly marked with what we conveniently call " Mazar-i-Sharif" stamp. Likely, just a stamp of government property. They are from the very end of the 19th century, perhaps even beginning of the 20th.