Oriental knife ID?!

mariusgmioc · 24th January 2016, 07:13 PM

Hello,
I got this knife at an auction in Germany and it was sold as Azerbaijani knife which I seriously doubt. The knife is 37,5 cm long, the grip is of a single piece walrus ivory and the blade is of high contrast wootz.
Any suggestion would be welcomed!

estcrh · 24th January 2016, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,
I got this knife at an auction in Germany and it was sold as Azerbaijani knife which I seriously doubt. The knife is 37,5 cm long, the grip is of a single piece walrus ivory and the blade is of high contrast wootz.
Any suggestion would be welcomed!

Looks like an Ottoman (balkan) bichaq dagger, and a nice one.

Battara · 24th January 2016, 09:30 PM

I agree. Nice piece.

mahratt · 25th January 2016, 08:15 AM

I think the knife handle of walrus tusk. Could you show other angles the hilt?

Gavin Nugent · 25th January 2016, 10:43 AM

Certainly Walrus ivory and of a known hilt shape and blade type, referred to as a Bichoq. These particular knives have a very Caucasian Shashka hilt essence to them.

Elgood notes about half a dozen manufacturing centres in his image plates within the The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period, all sharing similar features...not a specific region I could pin down...perhaps closer to Turkey?

Gavin

Kubur · 25th January 2016, 11:10 AM

I agree with Mister Gavin.
The decoration on the scabbard and the style of the hilt push to Turkey.
Did someone translate the inscription?
Kubur

mariusgmioc · 25th January 2016, 03:34 PM

The hilt is definitely walrus ivory as the blade is wootz. Moreover, the type of wootz appears to be of Persian origin (high contrast with rather large streaks of watering pattern). This, I believe will place the knife somewhere in the 18th century. The writing on the blade looks rather strange. Can somebody identify what kind of script it is... if it is any?!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th January 2016, 05:51 PM

Salaams All. It is always nice to know what is written when looking at say Latin or Anglo Saxon script.etc In the case of Islamic script something entirely additional is being reflected... The Talismanic effect (Talisman is in fact an arabic word Taslamen) ...protection from evil ...good luck...Often the date is submerged in the text as in this case where on the left side is the date. Two styles predominate..there are more but Kufic and Cursive are the main styles. Kufic is straight and angular with thick lines ending in a chamferred edge whilst Cursive is devoid of angles and formed by lines where downstrokes and upstrokes alternate...

Kufic and Cursive below examples..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

mariusgmioc · 25th January 2016, 09:10 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim!
Kufic I believe was the old Turkish script. So this might place it to Turkey. You mentioned a date hidden in the script. What date is it?
Best regards,
Marius

estcrh · 25th January 2016, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Certainly Walrus ivory and of a known hilt shape and blade type, referred to as a Bichoq. These particular knives have a very Caucasian Shashka hilt essence to them.

Elgood notes about half a dozen manufacturing centres in his image plates within the The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period, all sharing similar features...not a specific region I could pin down...perhaps closer to Turkey?

Gavin

Gavin, did you mean bichoq or bichaq? Here is what George Stone has to say about bichaq.

Kubur · 25th January 2016, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Kufic and Cursive below examples..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Kufic is a style
Cursive is not a style.
I think you mean nashki and thuluth
Kufic is not Ottoman, it's very old around 9th c.
Marius could you send a better picture of your text? I think you have a date on your knife...

Regards,
Kubur

mariusgmioc · 25th January 2016, 11:49 PM

here is the text

Gavin Nugent · 26th January 2016, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Gavin, did you mean bichoq or bichaq? Here is what George Stone has to say about bichaq.

Estcrh,

My thoughts are that Bichoq, Bichaq, Pichoq, Pichaq and other spelling exists... Name/s for a small knives such as the one presented, a name used dependant of the region across the Balkans and wider Turkic areas to the east.

As with yataghan, Kilij and Shamshir, the grip slabs are pinned, but being raised off the tangs and sealed/decorated with grip straps and bolsters or in the case of swords, the quillon blocks, this is typical, but Stones assessment seems to be limited to only bone or ivory slabs when so many more materials were used from horn, rhino horn, silvers, brass, ceramics, stones and others I am sure I have not listed.

This knife fits the form despite being a single pieces of ivory. The same could be said for the known Turkish small one piece Jade hilts too.

Gavin

Martin Lubojacky · 26th January 2016, 12:16 PM

Just small remark the classification of "bıçak". This generally means knife in Turkish an if you ask e.g. for a modern stainless steel knife in restaurant you ask them to bring a bıçak.

The knife is very nice. I think the style of the sheath is more to the Ege region (? Kubur will definitely repair me if I am mistaken). Interesting is, that contemporary silversmiths/restorers in Turkey can make such nice sheath - like in old times, too. But I think contemprary chasing is much deeper than they used to do it before
Martin

DaveA · 26th January 2016, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Gavin, did you mean bichoq or bichaq? Here is what George Stone has to say about bichaq.

I have seen all of the following terms used to refer to the bichaq. So much depends on who is speaking, where and when, and who is writing it down!

bıçak, bichaq, bishaq, bichaq, bichac, pichoq, pichok, pchak, pechak, P’chak

Best,

Dave A.

estcrh · 26th January 2016, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

I have seen all of the following terms used to refer to the bichaq. So much depends on who is speaking, where and when, and who is writing it down!

bıçak, bichaq, bishaq, bichaq, bichac, pichoq, pichok, pchak, pechak, P’chak

Best,

Dave A.

Dave, how many of these terms have written references and which do not, I know that bicak and bichaq are both used in various books but bichak seems to refer to any knife while for some reason bichaq seems to be the preferred term for this specific type of knife. I am not aware of any references which use bichok but it is used online sometimes.

mariusgmioc · 27th January 2016, 08:39 AM

Regarding the term "bichak," to me it is quite clearly a direct phonetic transliteration of the Turkish word "biçak" simply because English doesn't have the letter "ç" and neither do most of keyboards. It is exacltly the same way as the Turkish word "kiliç" is spelled in English as "kilij" using a spelling that is closer to the way the word should be read. All the other forms, might simply be alternate, sometimes misspelled phonetic transliterations.
As with respect to the meaning of the word, yes in Turkish it means simply "knife" but at the same time it has become a associated with a specific Ottoman type of knife, the very same way the Persian word "kard" which also means "knife" has become associated with the well known specific type of knife that originated in Persia.
PS: The word "kiliç" means "sword" in Turkish, but it has become associated with the specific Turkish saber.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th January 2016, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Kufic is a style
Cursive is not a style.
I think you mean nashki and thuluth
Kufic is not Ottoman, it's very old around 9th c.
Marius could you send a better picture of your text? I think you have a date on your knife...

Regards,
Kubur

Salaams Kubur ...You are right. Serves me right for trying to short circuit the definition... Perhaps readers will look at http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/islamic_calligraphy/ for a ballanced fuller look at the styles... I think the date is over on the left side of the picture...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Gavin Nugent · 28th January 2016, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Dave, how many of these terms have written references and which do not, I know that bicak and bichaq are both used in various books but bichak seems to refer to any knife while for some reason bichaq seems to be the preferred term for this specific type of knife. I am not aware of any references which use bichok but it is used online sometimes.

Not looking too hard but Holstein noted another spelling for the type Pitchaq. The Bukhara Museum provides the native name for the type from their region as Pichoq.

Gavin

estcrh · 28th January 2016, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Not looking too hard but Holstein noted another spelling for the type Pitchaq. The Bukhara Museum provides the native name for the type from their region as Pichoq.

Gavin

http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio.../uzbek-pichoq/

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd February 2016, 04:50 PM

Salaams all...Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Kufic

The project knife is not pseudo script..The date appears on the left of the item ... These inscriptions are automatically Talismanic thus there is some reluctance in providing translations by some ...quite understandable.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

mariusgmioc · 2nd February 2016, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all...Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Kufic

The project knife is not pseudo script..The date appears on the left of the item ... These inscriptions are automatically Talismanic thus there is some reluctance in providing translations by some ...quite understandable.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you again for your assitance!

24th January 2016, 07:13 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Oriental knife ID?! Hello, I got this knife at an auction in Germany and it was sold as Azerbaijani knife which I seriously doubt. The knife is 37,5 cm long, the grip is of a single piece walrus ivory and the blade is of high contrast wootz. Any suggestion would be welcomed! Attached Images

25th January 2016, 11:10 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I agree with Mister Gavin. The decoration on the scabbard and the style of the hilt push to Turkey. Did someone translate the inscription? Kubur Attached Images

25th January 2016, 03:34 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Details The hilt is definitely walrus ivory as the blade is wootz. Moreover, the type of wootz appears to be of Persian origin (high contrast with rather large streaks of watering pattern). This, I believe will place the knife somewhere in the 18th century. The writing on the blade looks rather strange. Can somebody identify what kind of script it is... if it is any?!

25th January 2016, 05:51 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All. It is always nice to know what is written when looking at say Latin or Anglo Saxon script.etc In the case of Islamic script something entirely additional is being reflected... The Talismanic effect (Talisman is in fact an arabic word Taslamen) ...protection from evil ...good luck...Often the date is submerged in the text as in this case where on the left side is the date. Two styles predominate..there are more but Kufic and Cursive are the main styles. Kufic is straight and angular with thick lines ending in a chamferred edge whilst Cursive is devoid of angles and formed by lines where downstrokes and upstrokes alternate... Kufic and Cursive below examples.. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th January 2016 at 06:12 PM.

25th January 2016, 09:10 PM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	What date?! Thank you Ibrahiim! Kufic I believe was the old Turkish script. So this might place it to Turkey. You mentioned a date hidden in the script. What date is it? Best regards, Marius

24th January 2016, 09:30 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I agree. Nice piece.

25th January 2016, 08:15 AM	#4
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I think the knife handle of walrus tusk. Could you show other angles the hilt?

25th January 2016, 10:43 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Certainly Walrus ivory and of a known hilt shape and blade type, referred to as a Bichoq. These particular knives have a very Caucasian Shashka hilt essence to them. Elgood notes about half a dozen manufacturing centres in his image plates within the The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period, all sharing similar features...not a specific region I could pin down...perhaps closer to Turkey? Gavin

25th January 2016, 11:49 PM	#12
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	here is the text Attached Images

26th January 2016, 12:16 PM	#14
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Just small remark the classification of "bıçak". This generally means knife in Turkish an if you ask e.g. for a modern stainless steel knife in restaurant you ask them to bring a bıçak. The knife is very nice. I think the style of the sheath is more to the Ege region (? Kubur will definitely repair me if I am mistaken). Interesting is, that contemporary silversmiths/restorers in Turkey can make such nice sheath - like in old times, too. But I think contemprary chasing is much deeper than they used to do it before Martin

27th January 2016, 08:39 AM	#17
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	About terms Regarding the term "bichak," to me it is quite clearly a direct phonetic transliteration of the Turkish word "biçak" simply because English doesn't have the letter "ç" and neither do most of keyboards. It is exacltly the same way as the Turkish word "kiliç" is spelled in English as "kilij" using a spelling that is closer to the way the word should be read. All the other forms, might simply be alternate, sometimes misspelled phonetic transliterations. As with respect to the meaning of the word, yes in Turkish it means simply "knife" but at the same time it has become a associated with a specific Ottoman type of knife, the very same way the Persian word "kard" which also means "knife" has become associated with the well known specific type of knife that originated in Persia. PS: The word "kiliç" means "sword" in Turkish, but it has become associated with the specific Turkish saber. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 27th January 2016 at 04:21 PM.

2nd February 2016, 04:50 PM	#21
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all...Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Kufic The project knife is not pseudo script..The date appears on the left of the item ... These inscriptions are automatically Talismanic thus there is some reluctance in providing translations by some ...quite understandable. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.