Drop pointed straight bladed tulwar, what purpose?

Kmaddock · 19th November 2017, 09:10 PM

Hi
I just got this Tulwar
The sharp edge is quiet pronounced falling away from the handle so the sharp edge is in front of the handle.
If you drew a line straight from the langets the tip of the blade is 6 inches in front of the handle.
The blade is slightly wider towards top 43 mm and 35 mm at the lower part of blade
Overall the sword is in rusty but potentially good condition.
I am looking forward to cleaning it to see what lies underneath
The resin in the handle is v solid so this is the way the blade orientation is meant to be, there is a small river in the handle which is impossible to photograph on the phone
Two fullers on the back of the blade on both sides.
I am confident enough the rust is just surface
So does anyone know what is this type of Tulwar and any idea of why this shift from the norm blade wise
I will take better outside pictures when it’s day time
From some searching I believe this weapon is a kirach, so all I need to know now is what is this weapon specifically for and any idea of age
Regards
Ke n

Jens Nordlunde · 19th November 2017, 10:30 PM

Ken,
It is hard to judge the sword when you only show part of it.
On the secpnd picture it seems as if the blade and the hilt does not fit. If this is so, it could meand that either the hilt or the blade have been added at a later date.
Happy cleaning:-)

Kmaddock · 19th November 2017, 10:57 PM

Thanks Jens
I will take better pictures tomorrow
How do you mean the blade and hilt do not fit, can I ask what you see?
There is a good bit of resin holding the blade to the hilt so if it is a marriage it is an old one.
I’ll post pictures
Regards
Ken

kronckew · 19th November 2017, 11:13 PM

the tulwar hilt pommel disk is designed to keep you from bending your wrist, forcing a close in slicing style of attack. someone may have 'adjusted' this one to let him have a bit more leeway.

british raj era sepoy armouries were supposed to have separated the blades and hilts during peaceful periods, to protect against spur of the moment mutinies. in case of war, the hilts and blades were reunited with the thermoplastic resin. it's also possible that the were in a hurry when they did this one. effectively all tulwars are 'marriages'.

i'm more concerned about that diagonal stuff with a surface crack near the hilt on one side, hopefully not covering a crack in the steel. is that a crack in the one side of the cross guard?

Kmaddock · 19th November 2017, 11:27 PM

Hi Kronckew,
The white is paint on the blade thankfully,
Very observant on the crack on the handle, there is a. Slight bit of damage
I purchased Tulwar because of the straight blade as I had none with such a blade shape, I did not realize it was so out of line until I received it today, I do not think it is badly re assembled I reckon it was purposely done, unless hilt was accidently warmed in a fire and the whole thing got out of kilter
I will clean up over next week or so and take better pictures
Cheers
Ken

Jens Nordlunde · 20th November 2017, 11:28 AM

Ken,
My reason for saying so is, that there is a gap between the hilt and the blade. This mostly means that either the hilt or the blade has been changed during the time of use.
I am looking forward to see the whole sword, maybe you have a kirach.

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2017, 05:54 PM

Interesting item , and more so as we try to forensically examine what its story might be. It does seem to have aging suggesting the blade and hilt have been together for a very long time, and it would seem that the damage extant is from casting weakness in the quillon arm and corrosion causing vulnerability to environment. It seems like it may have been stored loosely in an out building, the paint perhaps from spillage in such context.

I have a tulwar which has a blade (usual curve etc.) but the securing material is gone so it comes right out of the hilt. It seems this one and others I have seen have this sort of canted angle in the seated position of the blade. While it is tempting to suggest such angle would be to augment the force of a blow, such as is known in some Caucasian sabres and in incidental cases...it may be simply from a blade not original to hilt and later joined during working life.

I have heard the notion of swords and hilts being stored separately in arsenals while not in use with concerns about subversive action or insurrection, however I have never heard of sources or corroboration of such practice. With the amount of diversity and internecine friction probably present in many forces, there must have been certain concerns, however by the same token, the ever present danger of attack must have been a keen issue. To have dismantled weaponry really makes no sense, and the notion of 'peace' in the volatility of intertribal warfare seems unlikely.

The idea I think may be borne of British observers seeing an array of hilts and blades situated loosely in armouries, owing more to the constant assembly of blades to hilts in progress and probably in notable volume.

This may be a European backsword blade having been joined to a tulwar hilt intended for a more suitable blade. Often it is about what is available rather than select or intended dynamics for a sword.

Kmaddock · 20th November 2017, 09:12 PM

Here are some more images
Night here so again bad pictures but overall shape is clear enough

Sajen · 20th November 2017, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Happy cleaning:-)

Indeed, this will be a challenge!

Rick · 20th November 2017, 10:09 PM

It certainly looks like a kirach.
The example I own is a very good thrusting weapon.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th November 2017, 10:35 PM

Yes it looks like a kirach to me as well.

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2017, 11:08 PM

It sure appears compellingly to be a kirach OK.
Not to begin any name game stuff, but I am wondering, could this, or any kirach (straight blade tulwar as I understand) be with 'firangi' blade.
This blade looks remarkably like some 18th century hanger blades usually from Germany, with that same single groove along the back of blade.

Kmaddock · 20th November 2017, 11:22 PM

Thanks for the thumbs up on it being probably a kirach
As I said earlier all I was hoping for was a straight bladed Tulwar, looks as if I have something more exotic again

As for condition this is exactly what I wanted, it will never be a beautiful item but it oozes history to me and for something that is around 200 years old I think it is in good condition.

I will get all the active rid rust off it but I will leave it in it’s probable blackened state underneath as I am not into over cleaning my items.

I will put some images up of the semi cleaned item, I have projects to write up @nd assignments to correct so a busy week

Regards to all

Ken

Jens Nordlunde · 21st November 2017, 10:50 PM

Jim,
As far as I see it, there are two narrow fullers - and not one. Does that change you mind about a possible European origin?
To me the blade looks Indian.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 22nd November 2017, 12:33 AM

Jens,
You are right, I think I need new glasses. Agree, Indian blade.

ariel · 22nd November 2017, 03:03 AM

I have seen a couple of tulwars with misaligned hilt and blade combination. I think there is one for sale on e-bay right now.

Originally, I thought it was done on purpose, to increase the cutting ability of the sword ( similar to Georgian Kabiani Khmali), but that was far too exotic an explanation,

The marriage between the blade and the hilt was done in a hurry. First, the handle was filled with molten mastique and then a red-hot tang was forcefully inserted and everything was allowed to cool and solidify.

A little error or just inattention and the alignment was off.

This process was repeated several times during the life of a sword because the mastique dried out and crumbled, especially with repeat blows. Thus, there were plenty of opportunities to put things aslant.

Kmaddock · 22nd November 2017, 08:42 AM

Hi
Yes there are 2 narrow fullers
I have it soaking in diesel so I should have better images over the weekend
Regards
Ken

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd November 2017, 11:38 AM

Dont worry Jim, you can have my old glasses, thay are only about ten years old:-).
Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 14th December 2017, 05:44 PM

In post 12 Jim askes an interesting question.
Not to begin any name game stuff, but I am wondering, could this, or any kirach (straight blade tulwar as I understand) be with 'firangi' blade.
There are straight bladed tulwars and there are Kiraches.
Many of the straight bladed tulwars had foreign blades, but some also had Indian blades.
When it comes to Kiraches, as far as I know all of these blades were from India.

Norman McCormick · 14th December 2017, 08:07 PM

Here is my example of a straight bladed Tulwar. To my mind it does not conform to the Kirach archetype i.e. lacking the pronounced downward curve. It is unmarked and of indeterminate lineage so might be European, Indian or possibly another unknown source. It is a backsword blade. The steel appears well made resulting in a sharp and flexible blade.
Regards,
Norman.

19th November 2017, 09:10 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Drop pointed straight bladed tulwar, what purpose? Hi I just got this Tulwar The sharp edge is quiet pronounced falling away from the handle so the sharp edge is in front of the handle. If you drew a line straight from the langets the tip of the blade is 6 inches in front of the handle. The blade is slightly wider towards top 43 mm and 35 mm at the lower part of blade Overall the sword is in rusty but potentially good condition. I am looking forward to cleaning it to see what lies underneath The resin in the handle is v solid so this is the way the blade orientation is meant to be, there is a small river in the handle which is impossible to photograph on the phone Two fullers on the back of the blade on both sides. I am confident enough the rust is just surface So does anyone know what is this type of Tulwar and any idea of why this shift from the norm blade wise I will take better outside pictures when it’s day time From some searching I believe this weapon is a kirach, so all I need to know now is what is this weapon specifically for and any idea of age Regards Ke n Attached Images Last edited by Kmaddock; 19th November 2017 at 10:29 PM.

20th November 2017, 09:12 PM	#8
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Here are some more images Night here so again bad pictures but overall shape is clear enough Attached Images

14th December 2017, 08:07 PM	#20
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Here is my example of a straight bladed Tulwar. To my mind it does not conform to the Kirach archetype i.e. lacking the pronounced downward curve. It is unmarked and of indeterminate lineage so might be European, Indian or possibly another unknown source. It is a backsword blade. The steel appears well made resulting in a sharp and flexible blade. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

19th November 2017, 10:30 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ken, It is hard to judge the sword when you only show part of it. On the secpnd picture it seems as if the blade and the hilt does not fit. If this is so, it could meand that either the hilt or the blade have been added at a later date. Happy cleaning:-)

19th November 2017, 10:57 PM	#3
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Thanks Jens I will take better pictures tomorrow How do you mean the blade and hilt do not fit, can I ask what you see? There is a good bit of resin holding the blade to the hilt so if it is a marriage it is an old one. I’ll post pictures Regards Ken

19th November 2017, 11:13 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	the tulwar hilt pommel disk is designed to keep you from bending your wrist, forcing a close in slicing style of attack. someone may have 'adjusted' this one to let him have a bit more leeway. british raj era sepoy armouries were supposed to have separated the blades and hilts during peaceful periods, to protect against spur of the moment mutinies. in case of war, the hilts and blades were reunited with the thermoplastic resin. it's also possible that the were in a hurry when they did this one. effectively all tulwars are 'marriages'. i'm more concerned about that diagonal stuff with a surface crack near the hilt on one side, hopefully not covering a crack in the steel. is that a crack in the one side of the cross guard?

19th November 2017, 11:27 PM	#5
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Kronckew, The white is paint on the blade thankfully, Very observant on the crack on the handle, there is a. Slight bit of damage I purchased Tulwar because of the straight blade as I had none with such a blade shape, I did not realize it was so out of line until I received it today, I do not think it is badly re assembled I reckon it was purposely done, unless hilt was accidently warmed in a fire and the whole thing got out of kilter I will clean up over next week or so and take better pictures Cheers Ken

20th November 2017, 11:28 AM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ken, My reason for saying so is, that there is a gap between the hilt and the blade. This mostly means that either the hilt or the blade has been changed during the time of use. I am looking forward to see the whole sword, maybe you have a kirach.

20th November 2017, 05:54 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Interesting item , and more so as we try to forensically examine what its story might be. It does seem to have aging suggesting the blade and hilt have been together for a very long time, and it would seem that the damage extant is from casting weakness in the quillon arm and corrosion causing vulnerability to environment. It seems like it may have been stored loosely in an out building, the paint perhaps from spillage in such context. I have a tulwar which has a blade (usual curve etc.) but the securing material is gone so it comes right out of the hilt. It seems this one and others I have seen have this sort of canted angle in the seated position of the blade. While it is tempting to suggest such angle would be to augment the force of a blow, such as is known in some Caucasian sabres and in incidental cases...it may be simply from a blade not original to hilt and later joined during working life. I have heard the notion of swords and hilts being stored separately in arsenals while not in use with concerns about subversive action or insurrection, however I have never heard of sources or corroboration of such practice. With the amount of diversity and internecine friction probably present in many forces, there must have been certain concerns, however by the same token, the ever present danger of attack must have been a keen issue. To have dismantled weaponry really makes no sense, and the notion of 'peace' in the volatility of intertribal warfare seems unlikely. The idea I think may be borne of British observers seeing an array of hilts and blades situated loosely in armouries, owing more to the constant assembly of blades to hilts in progress and probably in notable volume. This may be a European backsword blade having been joined to a tulwar hilt intended for a more suitable blade. Often it is about what is available rather than select or intended dynamics for a sword.

20th November 2017, 10:09 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It certainly looks like a kirach. The example I own is a very good thrusting weapon.

20th November 2017, 10:35 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes it looks like a kirach to me as well.

20th November 2017, 11:08 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	It sure appears compellingly to be a kirach OK. Not to begin any name game stuff, but I am wondering, could this, or any kirach (straight blade tulwar as I understand) be with 'firangi' blade. This blade looks remarkably like some 18th century hanger blades usually from Germany, with that same single groove along the back of blade.

20th November 2017, 11:22 PM	#13
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Thanks for the thumbs up on it being probably a kirach As I said earlier all I was hoping for was a straight bladed Tulwar, looks as if I have something more exotic again As for condition this is exactly what I wanted, it will never be a beautiful item but it oozes history to me and for something that is around 200 years old I think it is in good condition. I will get all the active rid rust off it but I will leave it in it’s probable blackened state underneath as I am not into over cleaning my items. I will put some images up of the semi cleaned item, I have projects to write up @nd assignments to correct so a busy week Regards to all Ken

21st November 2017, 10:50 PM	#14
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim, As far as I see it, there are two narrow fullers - and not one. Does that change you mind about a possible European origin? To me the blade looks Indian. Jens

22nd November 2017, 12:33 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Jens, You are right, I think I need new glasses. Agree, Indian blade.

22nd November 2017, 03:03 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have seen a couple of tulwars with misaligned hilt and blade combination. I think there is one for sale on e-bay right now. Originally, I thought it was done on purpose, to increase the cutting ability of the sword ( similar to Georgian Kabiani Khmali), but that was far too exotic an explanation, The marriage between the blade and the hilt was done in a hurry. First, the handle was filled with molten mastique and then a red-hot tang was forcefully inserted and everything was allowed to cool and solidify. A little error or just inattention and the alignment was off. This process was repeated several times during the life of a sword because the mastique dried out and crumbled, especially with repeat blows. Thus, there were plenty of opportunities to put things aslant.

22nd November 2017, 08:42 AM	#17
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Yes there are 2 narrow fullers I have it soaking in diesel so I should have better images over the weekend Regards Ken

22nd November 2017, 11:38 AM	#18
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Dont worry Jim, you can have my old glasses, thay are only about ten years old:-). Jens

14th December 2017, 05:44 PM	#19
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In post 12 Jim askes an interesting question. Not to begin any name game stuff, but I am wondering, could this, or any kirach (straight blade tulwar as I understand) be with 'firangi' blade. There are straight bladed tulwars and there are Kiraches. Many of the straight bladed tulwars had foreign blades, but some also had Indian blades. When it comes to Kiraches, as far as I know all of these blades were from India.