Unknown short sword. Where's it from? Philippines? Naga?

RSWORD · 3rd July 2014, 01:36 PM

It is not often that I run across something I haven't seen before so when I do I tend to gravitate towards those items. This is a very interesting piece. It is about 21" long with a very thick and heavy blade. This is probably the reason for the long steel ferrule. The grip is of unusual form but is 8 sided. I would place it in the 19th century so it has very good age. The 8 sided grip reminds me of the Philippines but the shape of the handle is unique for that region. The blade shape is also a bit unique. Very thick spine, heavy and currently out of polish so unsure of the blade construction. The long steel ferrule reminds me a bit of Kalinga axe but the weld is nearly seamless where as you tend to have an overlapping weld on a Kalinga axe. The other region I gravitated towards was the Naga/Assam regions. Again, not an exact match to anything from that region but certain similarities can be found. I'm hoping the collective knowledge of the forum has seen this form somewhere in an obscure reference or can lend additional hypothesis to the mix to help on the road to discovery.

Sajen · 3rd July 2014, 09:12 PM

Hello Rick,

my feeling tells me somewhere from the mainland of SEA but frankly said I've never seen something similar.

Regards,
Detlef

Henk · 3rd July 2014, 10:13 PM

First guess is a dha-like something, Could also be a malay or indonesian chopper.

Blade has something from a sikin panjang. Could be a rehilted thing from that area as well.

Same story as Detlef told you, and i haven't seen anything like this either.

Robert · 4th July 2014, 12:15 AM

Hello Rick, It sure is nice to know that I am not alone when it comes to not being able to pass up the odd item when it shows up.

I wish I could help on this, but like everyone else I have never seen anything like this before.

Best,
Robert

Ian · 4th July 2014, 05:18 AM

Hi Rick:

That's definitely unusual. It appears to have been much used and resharpened many times. There is quite a deficit in the edge at the center of the blade, suggesting it has been used repeatedly as a chopper. So maybe more of a tool than a weapon.

Nothing about it really speaks to a specific origin.

Ian.

colin henshaw · 4th July 2014, 09:27 AM

The structure of the piece reminds me a bit of this knife/chopper I had and posted on the forum a couple of years ago - the metal sleeve and faceted finial are both commonalities. My knife was thought to be from Java in the end.

RSWORD · 5th July 2014, 03:11 AM

Thanks for the feedback guys. As I suspected we have a wide range of opinions which adds to the mystique and interest in this piece. If only these things could talk. I will review all the thoughts and add to them to mine and continue to work on a possible origin. Many thanks for the feedback.

Ian · 5th July 2014, 06:17 AM

Rick:

On further reflection I think the clue to what this was used for lies in the thickness of the blade. You say "very thick," but just how thick? If the spine measures more than a centimeter across, then the overwhelming use for such a blade in SE Asia is for splitting coconuts or chopping branches and small trees for firewood. Yes, we do find occasional weapons with blades of that thickness (the parang latok from Borneo, some of the klewang from Aceh, etc.), but seldom the focused wear on the blade that this one shows.

Since the blade has seen some hard use, probably over an extended period of time, it is possible that the handle is a replacement. And the scabbard also looks fairly recent in manufacture, with those well preserved rattan strips and no obvious dings.

My best guess would be a coconut splitting knife from northern Burma/Nagaland/Assam.

Ian.

Maurice · 5th July 2014, 10:54 AM

Hello Rick,

It is from the Tengger Mountains.
In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese..

A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was.

Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands!

Ian · 5th July 2014, 12:14 PM

COLLECTIE TROPENMUSEUM Portret van een oude Tenggerese man TMnr 10005231.jpg

Portrait of an old Tenggerese man

Dated 1910

Sajen · 5th July 2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hello Rick,

It is from the Tengger Mountains.
In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese..

A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was.

Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands!

Hello Maurice,

great! This is one reason why I am happy to be a member of this forum; nearly all seldom seen items can be identified! Never have seen such a chopper before.

Regards,
Detlef

RSWORD · 5th July 2014, 04:38 PM

Maurice,

Many thanks to you and your collector friend. I was hopeful someone had seen something similar and given how many of us had not run across anything similar it has been most helpful and educational. I agree completely with Sajen! This is a huge reason why we gather. Bravo!

S.Workman · 5th July 2014, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hello Rick,

It is from the Tengger Mountains.
In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese..

A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was.

Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands!

Where did you get those cool maps? They are very cool….

CharlesS · 5th July 2014, 07:18 PM

I am trying to think back on obscure pieces ultimately being correctly identified on this site and I really believe this one "might take the cake".

Interesting piece, and even more fascinating to learn more about it.

Personally, I have never seen anything remotely similar.

Good post Rsword!

Maurice · 6th July 2014, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

COLLECTIE TROPENMUSEUM Portret van een oude Tenggerese man TMnr 10005231.jpg

Portrait of an old Tenggerese man

Dated 1910

This is a cool photo of a Tengerese man! Thanks for sharing....

Maurice · 6th July 2014, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Maurice,

great! This is one reason why I am happy to be a member of this forum; nearly all seldom seen items can be identified! Never have seen such a chopper before.

Regards,
Detlef

Regards,
Maurice

Maurice · 6th July 2014, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Workman

Where did you get those cool maps? They are very cool….

I have this very big Atlas "van Tropisch Nederland", 1938.
I made the photos with my cellphone from it.

Rg,
Maurice

Maurice · 6th July 2014, 11:49 AM

My friend didn't mind placing a photo of the sword in his collection.

So here it is!
Enjoy.....

Rg,
Maurice

VVV · 6th July 2014, 10:11 PM

Nice find Rick and cool research Maurice!

Blades from the Tenggerese, like the Badui, is not something you see everyday...

Michael

Sajen · 6th July 2014, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Nice find Rick and cool research Maurice!

Blades from the Tenggerese, like the Badui, is not something you see everyday...

Michael

Are there documented blades known from the Badui people?

Regards,
Detlef

Maurice · 7th July 2014, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Are there documented blades known from the Badui people?

Regards,
Detlef

Reread the gobang article I've sent you a while ago Detlef. There you'll find more info about the Badoei blades..

Rg Maurice

colin henshaw · 7th July 2014, 08:31 AM

Well done Maurice and friend, great identification !

Regards

Sajen · 7th July 2014, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Reread the gobang article I've sent you a while ago Detlef. There you'll find more info about the Badoei blades..

Rg Maurice

Hi Maurice,

yes, forget it!

Regards,
Detlef

Maurice · 7th July 2014, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Well done Maurice and friend, great identification !

Regards

You're welcome.
Great that it is appreciated so much Colin!

Rg,
Maurice

Maurice · 7th July 2014, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Maurice,

yes, forget it!

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

look at page 20 / 21 and you'll find some information.
Not much, but better as nothing.

Sajen · 7th July 2014, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hi Detlef,

look at page 20 / 21 and you'll find some information.
Not much, but better as nothing.

Hi Maurice,

you're correct, just have checked it!

Emanuel · 7th July 2014, 10:48 PM

Hello,

Could this piece belong to the same group?.

Emanuel

Ian · 8th July 2014, 12:42 AM

Looks very similar Emanuel. I'd say the same group.

Ian.

Sajen · 4th February 2018, 06:04 PM

I have recently aquired this one, it was listed as Maasai seme!

Ian · 4th February 2018, 07:37 PM

Very nice. Good find. I've been looking for one of these for a while, but have been caught up with packing house the last few weeks. Otherwise ...

Congratulations on a good piece Detlef.

Ian.

3rd July 2014, 01:36 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Unknown short sword. Where's it from? Philippines? Naga? It is not often that I run across something I haven't seen before so when I do I tend to gravitate towards those items. This is a very interesting piece. It is about 21" long with a very thick and heavy blade. This is probably the reason for the long steel ferrule. The grip is of unusual form but is 8 sided. I would place it in the 19th century so it has very good age. The 8 sided grip reminds me of the Philippines but the shape of the handle is unique for that region. The blade shape is also a bit unique. Very thick spine, heavy and currently out of polish so unsure of the blade construction. The long steel ferrule reminds me a bit of Kalinga axe but the weld is nearly seamless where as you tend to have an overlapping weld on a Kalinga axe. The other region I gravitated towards was the Naga/Assam regions. Again, not an exact match to anything from that region but certain similarities can be found. I'm hoping the collective knowledge of the forum has seen this form somewhere in an obscure reference or can lend additional hypothesis to the mix to help on the road to discovery. Attached Images

4th July 2014, 09:27 AM	#6
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	The structure of the piece reminds me a bit of this knife/chopper I had and posted on the forum a couple of years ago - the metal sleeve and faceted finial are both commonalities. My knife was thought to be from Java in the end. Attached Images

5th July 2014, 10:54 AM	#9
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Tenggerese mountain Hello Rick, It is from the Tengger Mountains. In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese.. A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was. Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands! Attached Images Last edited by Maurice; 5th July 2014 at 11:13 AM.

5th July 2014, 12:14 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Images from the Dutch Tropenmuseum COLLECTIE TROPENMUSEUM Portret van een oude Tenggerese man TMnr 10005231.jpg Portrait of an old Tenggerese man Dated 1910 Attached Images

6th July 2014, 11:49 AM	#18
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	My friend didn't mind placing a photo of the sword in his collection. So here it is! Enjoy..... Rg, Maurice Attached Images

3rd July 2014, 09:12 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello Rick, my feeling tells me somewhere from the mainland of SEA but frankly said I've never seen something similar. Regards, Detlef

3rd July 2014, 10:13 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	First guess is a dha-like something, Could also be a malay or indonesian chopper. Blade has something from a sikin panjang. Could be a rehilted thing from that area as well. Same story as Detlef told you, and i haven't seen anything like this either.

4th July 2014, 12:15 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Rick, It sure is nice to know that I am not alone when it comes to not being able to pass up the odd item when it shows up. I wish I could help on this, but like everyone else I have never seen anything like this before. Best, Robert

4th July 2014, 05:18 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Hi Rick: That's definitely unusual. It appears to have been much used and resharpened many times. There is quite a deficit in the edge at the center of the blade, suggesting it has been used repeatedly as a chopper. So maybe more of a tool than a weapon. Nothing about it really speaks to a specific origin. Ian.

5th July 2014, 03:11 AM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Thanks for the feedback guys. As I suspected we have a wide range of opinions which adds to the mystique and interest in this piece. If only these things could talk. I will review all the thoughts and add to them to mine and continue to work on a possible origin. Many thanks for the feedback.

5th July 2014, 06:17 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Rick: On further reflection I think the clue to what this was used for lies in the thickness of the blade. You say "very thick," but just how thick? If the spine measures more than a centimeter across, then the overwhelming use for such a blade in SE Asia is for splitting coconuts or chopping branches and small trees for firewood. Yes, we do find occasional weapons with blades of that thickness (the parang latok from Borneo, some of the klewang from Aceh, etc.), but seldom the focused wear on the blade that this one shows. Since the blade has seen some hard use, probably over an extended period of time, it is possible that the handle is a replacement. And the scabbard also looks fairly recent in manufacture, with those well preserved rattan strips and no obvious dings. My best guess would be a coconut splitting knife from northern Burma/Nagaland/Assam. Ian.

5th July 2014, 04:38 PM	#12
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Maurice, Many thanks to you and your collector friend. I was hopeful someone had seen something similar and given how many of us had not run across anything similar it has been most helpful and educational. I agree completely with Sajen! This is a huge reason why we gather. Bravo!

5th July 2014, 07:18 PM	#14
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I am trying to think back on obscure pieces ultimately being correctly identified on this site and I really believe this one "might take the cake". Interesting piece, and even more fascinating to learn more about it. Personally, I have never seen anything remotely similar. Good post Rsword!

6th July 2014, 10:11 PM	#19
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice find Rick and cool research Maurice! Blades from the Tenggerese, like the Badui, is not something you see everyday... Michael

7th July 2014, 08:31 AM	#22
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Well done Maurice and friend, great identification ! Regards

7th July 2014, 10:48 PM	#27
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Could this piece belong to the same group?. Emanuel Attached Images

8th July 2014, 12:42 AM	#28
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Looks very similar Emanuel. I'd say the same group. Ian.

4th February 2018, 06:04 PM	#29
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	I have recently aquired this one, it was listed as Maasai seme! Attached Images

4th February 2018, 07:37 PM	#30
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Very nice. Good find. I've been looking for one of these for a while, but have been caught up with packing house the last few weeks. Otherwise ... Congratulations on a good piece Detlef. Ian.