Flintlock Pistols With Rare Safety Frizzens, c1740

[dana_w]

This pair of silver mounted flintlock pistols have a very unusual safety mechanism. The Frizzens can be swiveled out of the path of the hammer. Along with British view and proof marks, the barrels are marked with a star over "IB". This is the maker's mark of the highly regarded James Barbar.

http://weaponscollector.com/j_barbar_c1740.php

Unfortunately these pistols are covered with a dark brown substance which is believed to be dried linseed oil. A few years ago Cheaper Than Dirt republished an article on firearm preservation by Springfield National Historic Site and National Park Service. To quote that article “When linseed oil oxidizes, its molecules cross-link with one another, making it increasingly more difficult to remove as time passes.”

http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/cari...toric-firearm/

I would like to clean these pistols. So far I have tried using fresh boiled linseed oil, WD-40, turpentine, and (God forbid) lighter fluid, all without any notable success.

Has anyone seen an antique weapon preserved in this way? Does anyone have an informed suggestion on how to safely remove the ancient dried linseed oil?

All photos are copyright (c) 2016 Dana K. Williams. All rights are reserved.

[corrado26]

“When linseed oil oxidizes, its molecules cross-link with one another, making it increasingly more difficult to remove as time passes.”

This means that to get the results you see on your pistols needed a very long time. So cleaning needs the same time too. So you can try to put all metal items in turpentine at least four or five weeks and see afterwards what has happened.
corrado26

[Philip]

Thanks for sharing these very interesting pistols. Did you know that swiveling frizzens were pretty much the norm on many early flintlock mechanisms from the Baltic countries, especially Sweden, from the mid- to late 17th cent.? There are several examples showing various stages of development and refinement in H. L. Blackmore, GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD (1965), figs 137, 139, 141-45. On all of these, the pan-cover and the steel were attached to each other via the swivel-screw. The design allowed the gun to be carried safely with the pan primed and closed, and the cock lowered with the steel pivoted out of the way, with no need for a half-cock detent. I would imagine that the locks on your pistols also have a half-cock safety notch on the tumbler as well.

[corrado26]

This safety system is rather often to be found on German and Austrian flintlocks as show the fotos of a gun by Christoph Frey, Munic, a pistol by Wenzlau in Koblenz, a carbine by Niklaus Koch of Vienna and an unsigned military officer's carbine of Saxony.
corrado26

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

... you can try to put all metal items in turpentine at least four or five weeks and see afterwards what has happened.
corrado26

I had considered that corrado26, and it may work for the lock. Unpinning the barrel and removing the other furniture for immersion could be more problematic.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Philip

Did you know that swiveling frizzens were pretty much the norm on many early flintlock mechanisms from the Baltic countries, especially Sweden, from the mid- to late 17th cent.?

I didn't know that Philip. I've been lucky enough to handle hundreds of flintlocks from the period, but most of those were English, French, or Spanish. This is the first swiveling frizzen I've seen other than one published image.

Would you disagree with the assertion that the design is rare?

Originally Posted by Philip

DidThere are several examples showing various stages of development and refinement in H. L. Blackmore, GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD (1965), figs 137, 139, 141-45.

I own several books by Blackmore, but not that one. I'll ask around and see if one of my friends has a copy. Thanks for the reference.

Originally Posted by Philip

I would imagine that the locks on your pistols also have a half-cock safety notch on the tumbler as well.

Yes they have a half-cock safety.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

This safety system is rather often to be found on German and Austrian flintlocks as show the fotos of a gun by Christoph Frey, Munic, a pistol by Wenzlau in Koblenz, a carbine by Niklaus Koch of Vienna and an unsigned military officer's carbine of Saxony.
corrado26

Thanks for the great photos corrado26. It is helpful to see some other examples.

[Fernando K]

Hello

I agree with Corrado. So what you can do is work with a cotton and patiently. Any solves (vegetable turpentine Tinner xylol benzine) dissolves dry flax oil

Affectionately. Fernando K

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

I agree with Corrado. So what you can do is work with a cotton and patiently. Any solves (vegetable turpentine Tinner xylol benzine) dissolves dry flax oil

Affectionately. Fernando K

I've spent about an hour doing that Fernando K, with both mild and aggressive solvents. There was no noticeable change.

[Philip]

[QUOTE=dana_w]I didn't know that Philip. I've been lucky enough to handle hundreds of flintlocks from the period, but most of those were English, French, or Spanish. This is the first swiveling frizzen I've seen other than one published image.

Would you disagree with the assertion that the design is rare?


Hi, Dana
I would most emphatically agree with you in that the design is rare WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF BRITISH-MADE FIREARMS, but this is not necessarily so in general. It was quite common in much of Scandinavia a century before your guns were made, as I mentioned. And as our fellow forumite has so kindly pointed out with photos, the swiveling frizzen was not uncommon in the German-speaking countries as well.

Thanks again for sharing these. I've given some thought to your caked-oil dilemma (I am a restorer of antique arms), and have in the past found mineral spirits to be a good antidote for oils. You apparently have an extreme case, so how about detaching from the wood and a prolonged, complete immersion? After awhile when softening does occur, removal can be accelerated with use of small brass brushes. Here in the States, we can often find at arms fairs and outdoor-equipment shops a product consisting of a wad of thin stainless steel filaments (somewhat like a pot scrubber but softer and without embedded detergents) that's touted as good for de-rusting steel surfaces without scratching the bluing on things like guns or reels. I recall the trade name Gun Scrubber on the last one I bought. 'Was skeptical about the non-scratching claim at first, tried it on a rusty blued rifle barrel of negligible worth, and lo, it did the job as advertised. I think that this, combined with the soaking, should solve your problem but patience is needed. Good luck on this.

[RDGAC]

Hi Dana,

I've been musing on your problem for a while and was wondering if I might be able to lend a hand.

One of the tools conservators use (I hasten here to add that I'm a mere assistant curator, not a conservator, mind you) is the Teas fractional solubility chart. This is a handy diagram that (although it has flaws and limitations) gives a roughly accurate idea of the relationships between properties of different solvents. There's a pretty good Teas chart here.

Anyway, looking at what you've used to far, it seems likely that your solvents have all tended towards the bottom right of the chart; while I'm no chemist by any stretch of the imagination, my understanding is that these solvents all work in the same way, and in this case that's primarily by London dispersion forces acting to force the molecules of the solute apart from each other. On the diagram you can see turpentine and benzene (which I'm using as a rough approximation for lighter fluid in this post).

I'm wondering if you might get better results from a solvent which has higher polarization (Dipole) or hydrogen bonding (I believe aka Keesom) interactions. Unfortunately, the solvents with high hydrogen bonding forces are also alcohols, probably not very good for the wood of the stock as they will displace water and then evaporate, leaving it excessively dry. As a suggestion, you could try to find some of this "Cellosolve" stuff mentioned on the chart.

For the metal parts, I'd try acetone as a starter if they can be detached from the stock. Again, acetone can be bad for wood (it's used as a water displacer during wood conservation, for instance - not a quality that recommends it unless you're planning to replace that water with something, since the acetone will evaporate and be lost quite rapidly) and I would suspect that its fellow ketones are no better, so detachment is highly recommended.

Hope this is useful,

Meredydd

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

One of the tools conservators use (I hasten here to add that I'm a mere assistant curator, not a conservator, mind you) is the Teas fractional solubility chart.

Meredydd, thanks SO MUCH for contributing the Teas Chart. I will re-post it here just in case the link moves in the future.

The locks are not too difficult, but I have a lot of concerns about attempting to remove the barrels and furniture from these 275 year old pistols. Of course I am also concerned about using harsh chemicals near the wooden stock.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Philip

I would most emphatically agree with you in that the design is rare WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF BRITISH-MADE FIREARMS, but this is not necessarily so in general. It was quite common in much of Scandinavia a century before your guns were made, as I mentioned. And as our fellow forumite has so kindly pointed out with photos, the swiveling frizzen was not uncommon in the German-speaking countries as well.

Thanks Philip. I'll look around and see if I can find some more examples from Scandinavia and the German-speaking countries.

Originally Posted by Philip

Here in the States, we can often find at arms fairs and outdoor-equipment shops a product consisting of a wad of thin stainless steel filaments (somewhat like a pot scrubber but softer and without embedded detergents) that's touted as good for de-rusting steel surfaces without scratching the bluing on things like guns or reels. I recall the trade name Gun Scrubber on the last one I bought.

I'll see if I can find what you are talking about.

[Pukka Bundook]

Very nice pistols Dana.

Beautiful and elegant, and I am pretty sure Lewis Barbar, as the "dot" abobe the initials would be a star for James. The L is likely just poorly struck.

Sideplates of this type are beyond all the others in my opinion!

For cleaning the metal;
There is a substance called Circa 1850 furniture stripper.
(Please bear with me!.........furniture stripper sounds horrific I know!)

If a little is dabbed on the Metal, not the wood, it will lift the dried oil more or less straight away.
It does not touch patina, bluing or browning, and does not require rinsing or anything afterwards.
Even on wood it will not hurt it, but will possibly remove old wax finish and you will not likely want to do that.
I'd suggest trying a spot or two in more hidden areas, and see what you think.
Again, beautiful pistols, as nice as they come.
Attached is a picture of Lewis Barbar's mark, and am sure this is the same mark on your pistols.

Thank you for showing them here Dana.

Richard.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

There is a substance called Circa 1850 furniture stripper.
(Please bear with me!.........furniture stripper sounds horrific I know!)

If a little is dabbed on the Metal, not the wood, it will lift the dried oil more or less straight away.

Thanks Richard (AKA Pukka Bundook), I'll give that a look. Here is a link to the product. It looks like they may carry it at Home Depot.

http://www.swingpaints.com/product/1800

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I am pretty sure Lewis Barbar, as the "dot" abobe the initials would be a star for James.

Trust me on this Richard, it is a Star over "IB". When I have a chance I'll upload a closeup.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dana,

I am sure you know what you are about.
In your photos, I mistook the star for a dot. Please pardon my presumption that it Was a dot!

Richard.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

I'm wondering if you might get better results from a solvent which has higher polarization (Dipole) or hydrogen bonding (I believe aka Keesom) interactions.

A friend at an engineering firm near my office recommend a product called Goof Off which uses a combination of Acetone and Xylene. Using the chart you provided, Acetone is higher on the polarization scale (a Keesom) than anything I've tried before. I applied some Goof Off to the face of one frizzen using a cotton swap and it did slowly remove some of the dried linseed oil. I am going to pickup some pure Acetone and give it a try when I get a chance.

Another friend who is an artist recommended a product used to remove dried linseed oil from antique oil paintings called Winsor & Newton Artists' Picture Cleaner. Its active ingredient was ammonia. I had ammonia in the kitchen so I gave it a try and it seems works well too. It is a little harder to control because it doesn't evaporate quickly.

[corrado26]

Trust me on this Richard, it is a Star over "IB".

Sorry, but I read "LB" = Lewis Barbar
corrado26

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Sorry, but I read "LB" = Lewis Barbar
corrado26

I wish it was corrado26, but it is not.

Maybe you are looking at Pukka Bundook's photo which is Lewis Barbar.

[dana_w]

The hard thick brown substance proved very difficult to remove, until my friend Bob Calder recommended a product used to remove linseed oil from old paintings. That product's active ingredient was ammonia, and ammonia proved to be the answer to my dilemma. A day and several hundred q-tips later the first of the two pistols is ready to be rephotographed.

All photos are copyright (c) 2016 Dana K. Williams. All rights are reserved.

[fernando]

Great, Dana!
Congratulations .

[JamesKelly]

And just why did you remove this old, probably original, finish from your pistols?

As an accumulator (if not collector) of old guns I am very, very pleased when i can get one which has not been "improved" by some other collector/dealer/whatever

I am aware that Europeans like to polish their ancient guns nice and bright, but in the USA some of us view it as heresy.

[corrado26]

I am aware that Europeans like to polish their ancient guns nice and bright,

This is absolutely uncorrect. Only some French collectors and especially one French dealer like to improve their pistols and guns by extreme polishing!!
corrado26

[fernando]

Originally Posted by JamesKelly

... I am aware that Europeans like to polish their ancient guns nice and bright ...

Some do, some don't, James; maybe you are not well informed .

Originally Posted by JamesKelly

... but in the USA some of us view it as heresy...

Heresy may reside anywhere .

[dana_w]

I talked to a lot of well known collector's before deciding to remove the nasty linseed oil, and I am happy with the results. Anyone else think that they should have been left the way they were?

[David R]

The problem with any thick opaque finish is what it may hide underneath. If corrosion has started, or starts later on, the damage can be irreparable before it is noticed.
I would guess that the Linseed oil varnish was originally applied by a previous collector rather than the original user, given how it would interfere with cleaning and maintenance during it's lifetime of use.

[Philip]

Dana, the linseed oil was not the original metal finish on the guns, and considering the problems that these caked-on, after-market coatings can cause in the long run, you were right in removing it. This is not analogous to the aggressive treatments used by some collectors and dealers, namely abrading the surface with polishing agents, or enhancing it via re-bluing or redoing the browning.

[Pukka Bundook]

I agree with Philip.

This old oil may have been applied over the centuries to prevent rust, maybe not linseed, as all old oil will gum and solidify in time.
We often see this accumulation. A little can look very nice, but if it starts to cloud the appearance and gum up the works, it's best removed and as Philp said, has nothing to do with any original finish.

Of course, a light oiling afterwards is again required............starting the process over again? :-)

[Philip]

Using oil on an iron or steel surface is better than no protection at all. But think of the downsides:
1. It comes off on your fingers (or soils your curatorial cotton gloves) as you handle the piece. Worse, it can smear onto the wood stock and over time cause it to darken in places when accumulations soak into the grain.
2. Over time, it can harden and form a nasty gunk which is likely to cause its own set of problems, as has been discussed heretofore.
3. On guns that are displayed out in the open (i.e. on wall mounts or atop a shelf) and are not periodically wiped, oil attracts dust and while it slowly dries out, the dust attracts atmospheric moisture like a wick, and the metal eventually rusts.

You can avoid these problems by using a high-quality wax in lieu of oil. "Renaissance Wax" is a popular brand, but I have had excellent results with more mundane equivalents, like a good carnauba-based automotive wax, or the household standby, Johnson's paste wax (designed for furniture, it's good for the stock as well). Remove oil from surface before waxing, and use a toothbrush or toothpick to remove excess buildup from crevices and screw slots after wiping with a soft cloth. A wax finish lasts a long time, I've gone several years before having to renew it (although I live in an arid part of the country, you might want to do it more frequently if your climate is damp or you live by the seashore).

A good time to wax a gun is when it's all apart, you can catch the underside of the barrel, the parts of iron fittings that nest in stock recesses, and of course the screw threads. Oil still has its place, to lubricate the mechanical contact points. If you make it a point to scrub and clean the bore, do the same as you would do for a sporting gun, but it's best to reserve that operation for when the barrel is detached from the stock so that bore cleaning solvent (and the suspended rust and gunk) don't drip onto the wood.

[rickystl]

Hello all. I'm usually on the Ethno Forum, but glad I ran into this great Thread.

Dana: Those are a great looking pair of pistols. And I'm glad you found a solution to the cleaning issue. They sure turned out nice. So much better without that old, hardened oil. Your decision to clean the metal parts in the fashion you did sure gets my vote. And thanks to all for the knowledge on the saftey frizzens. Most interesting.

Here is the stainless scrubber that Philip mentioned. It does in fact work better and faster than steel wool. Terrific item.
And I really like Renaissance Wax. That is what I usually use. But have also used a good quality carnuba wax with similar results as Philip mentioned.
For inside of barrels after cleaning, I still use old fashion gun oil. It will evaporate over time, but their is no build-up so it's easy to run a solvent patch down the barrel and re-apply the oil.
Actually, with all the newer, high-tech gun cleaners on the market today, it's starting to get a bit hard to locate the regular old fashin gun oil. Which is also what I use with the stainless scrubber to clean the gunk of metal parts.

Anyway, thanks for starting this Thread Dana. Georgious pistols!!!!

Rick.