A little navaja

[fernando]

A bit damaged. The handle plates are bull white and rose horn. The brass parts are the real basic handcraft, the file work is pretty rough. The 8 cms. blade is missing the tip, and the maker's mark was hard to identify.Forton's was the key: Valero Jun from Zaragoza, XIX century. However and again according to this book's illustrations, this shape could be French or, in the least, Franco Spanish. I wonder what the experts think about that ... Chris ?
Thanks
fernando

[ingelred]

Hello,

the maker's mark is most probably

Valero Jun(ior) Zaragoza

Nice find.

Greetings, Helge

[Chris Evans]

Hola Fernando,

That navaja style is most definitely French, more specifically from Thiers.

I always wondered whether those sold with Valero Jun stamped into the blade, were made in Spain or under contract in France and merely retailed under his name.

The ones that I have seen appear to be of above average quality, for Spanish knives, strongly suggesting that they were actually made in France. A few were of poor quality, more consistent with Spanish folders, and suspect that these were local copies of the French made navajas.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Olá Chris.
Thanks a lot for your remarks, .
What do you say about Helge's aproach on the Jun(ior) thing?
Forton doesn´t seem to observe this,although it looks quite plausible.
fernando

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

I must admit that I also wondered about the "Jun" quite a lot. I am afraid that I can only speculate. To even attempt answering that question we would need to know more about that cutler's genealogy, as well as family and business history.

You know, it is very hard to add much that is meaningful to Forton's work, save perhaps on contemporary navajas. It is my opinion that Forton pretty much wrote down what knowledge is readily available on navajas in olden times. To go beyond his work would require and enormous amount of research, and not just within Spain either, for the story of the navaja takes in Portugal, France and Italy as well.

With the above said, we very much need an update on his book, perhaps one with better technical descriptions, for example on the origins and function of the "carraca", the design and fuction of the "virola" (ferrule/bolster) and so on.

Cheers
Chris

[Rafael_S_O]

Hellow gentlemans.

This is almost a miniature of the very common Valero Jun brand models. The most usual was in the 6"-7" blades even if you can found in the 9"to 10" they are not common at all. You can find models made in Zaragoza (where is the place of this family) and others made in France. Some of the best I have seen were made in Zaragoza with "solid" parts and not the more common "hollow plates" models that was the usual way to make the navajas in Thiers and Chatelrault. This one look definitly french made. That way of doing the things was quite "normal" in these times. Is like Nike making shoes in Asia nowdays. So they are as indicated the easiest one to be copied or imitated in these times.

In others matters....

Jun is a Family name not so "popular" as Fernández o Díaz but nothing more than that. Forgot about Junior or others "complicated" solutions to a simple matter.
The ratchet system (la carraca) is, in his origins, a matter of safety. When you are using anithing from nails or files to horseshoes to obtain the blade of your knife be sure to put more than one "tooth" on the spine. If the first, main one, break apart you can be sure that at least you will not cut your fingers out with a heavy 8-9" blade closing over. Later was more a aesthetic function that keep in place this system.

The virola must be seen as a natural evolution of the "cierre de fieles" that was one of the first "almost lock" system used or a reinforcement of the handles made in horn or wood in these times.


And finally, allow me to try to explain why I said this especific knife is almost a miniature. The 10-12 " blades quite common in a period before this knife in about 50-100 years, was not a slow, heavy and difficult to use "romantic invention" like a lot of people think. I´ve seen someone draw a big 8-9" Expósito navaja in a so fast manner that someone could think that was a italian automatic stiletto. With the same technique you could have drew the biggest one even faster and easier (because the weigt of the blade). And even today is quite easy to find really big, common navajas in flea markets that were not "display models". Is not so easy as to find the usual Valero Jun but you can find. Even the very apreciates Navajas Sevillanas (Isabelina model) were mades as long as 9", so quite large also.
Is a pleasure to talk about navajas with people who appreciate the subjet.
If my words sound rudes, please let think is my poor english that is not good enough to expouse mi point of view in a more correct manner.

Saludos cordiales desde Sevilla.

Rafael S.O.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Rafael,

Nice to receive your input.

1. Re Valero Jun: Do you know for certain that that was his family name? It sound plausible.

2. Re Carraca (Ratchet): I tend to agree with you that it was probably a safety feature, for the other commonly made explanation, namely that the ratchet was supposed to frighten the opponent makes little sense. Now if safety was the prime concern, why did so many have up to 15 teeth? I can see the first two or three contributing to safety, but the rest?

However, a well known Spanish antiquarian offered the alternative explanation that it was a legal requirement is some jurisdictions, though he couldn't prove it. A friend consulted with Don Forton who opined that it was primarily aimed at frightening the opponent. So we have three different opinions. I noticed that in his works Forton does not address this subject. We can all make guesses, but it would be nice to know for sure.

3. Re the Virola (Bolster): What you say makes good sense. It distributes the load imposed by the riveted pivot pin on the handle material. But the design of the bolster influences the strenghth of the handle assembly and this is something that needs elaboration in a work such as that of Forton's.

4. Re Size: Once a blade exceeds about 23cm, the handle becomes very weak or else too heavy and thus impractical. Plenty of large `navajas de muestra' (show/exhibition pieces) but I have yet to see one that saw use as indicated by wear and tear. You are right, those with large heavy blades can be flung open very quickly, but despite this remain impractical because of the weakness and weight problems. According to Forton, the average navaja blade was in the 15-23cm range, if I remember correctly, and that is consistent with something that could be put to practical use. With a bridged Virola (bolster) its is possible to make a navaja with a longer blade, say up to around 30cm, but it will be marginal on account of its weight and bulk of the handle.

Also the typical Spanish `Window" lock (Cierro de Ventana) is prone to rapidly develop slack and this free play is greatly accentuated by longer blades.


5. I think that one of the biggest problems we have trying to understand old navajas and their usage is that the surviving specimens were for most part show pieces or souvenirs and those that saw actual use were worn out and destroyed a long time ago. The people who used them were illiterate and thus we have no written records.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

Here is a link to a Spanish forum in which the reason for the `carraca' ratchet on navajas is being discussed. In short , the respondent claims that he read somewhere that it was a legal requirement. Makes sense.

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?fo...temaid=6102253

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Good score Chris.
So the carraca was intended to possibilitate the "victim" to have notion of a navaja atack from the shadow, as also the size of the piece at use.
I remember when i was a kid the mentioning of theses pieces was either navalha de ponta e mola ( point and spring), or navalha de x ( number ) estalos ( cracks ).
All the best
fernando

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

The currently popular view that the primary function of the `carraca' ratchet was to intimidate the opponent, at least to me, makes very little sense. Only a very faint hearted person would ber frightened by it and a capable fighter would take good advantage of the warning sounds to take pre-emptive action.

All the antique Spanish made navajas that I have see had sloppy locks, even on unused exhibition pieces. This suggests that under stress, these could fail and the incorporation of two or three ratchet teeth makes sense as a safety precaution. This makes even more sense if we remember that the favoured fight with the navaja was with a cape or jacket used as a parrying implement, and as such a substantial blow on the spine of a blade was always something to be reckoned with, especially if the fabric caught the point.

If however we consider that the legislators were continuously trying to contain the violent use of navajas, as demonstrated by the numerous laws and edicts, then it also makes sense if they tried to make the opening of navajas as slow and noisy as possible. This view also fits in with the large number of ratchet teeth found on so many navajas, far more than what the above fail-safe considerations would require.

In the absence of hard proof, I am inclined to think that the ratchet teeth probably were first incorporated as a fail-safe innovation and then was seized upon by the authorities as a legal requisite to frustrate as much as possible their violent usage. It was probably due to legal requirements that the number of ratchet teeth increased from two or three to as many as 15 on some navajas.

Cheers
Chris

[Rafael_S_O]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Rafael,

Nice to receive your input.

1. Re Valero Jun: Do you know for certain that that was his family name? It sound plausible.

Valero is quite common. Jun a lot less but exist also. In Spain everyone carry TWO differents family names. One from the father the other from the mother, so Valero Jun is more than possible especialy in the region of Aragon (Zaragoza is the regional capital city of Aragon).
2. Re Carraca (Ratchet): I tend to agree with you that it was probably a safety feature, for the other commonly made explanation, namely that the ratchet was supposed to frighten the opponent makes little sense. Now if safety was the prime concern, why did so many have up to 15 teeth? I can see the first two or three contributing to safety, but the rest?
The 15 teeth is far from the really common 3-8 theeth. The 7 theeth are, even today, like a urban legend as sinonimous of big, "terrible" navaja. Populars makers as JJ Marínez still making almost all his production of Navajas con Carraca with the same number of teeth for any size, 5 teeth.
The soun is impresive, that for sure. And is possible that some people add more teeth for this reason, but I don´t think that this is the main or original reason in any case.

However, a well known Spanish antiquarian offered the alternative explanation that it was a legal requirement is some jurisdictions, though he couldn't prove it. A friend consulted with Don Forton who opined that it was primarily aimed at frightening the opponent. So we have three different opinions. I noticed that in his works Forton does not address this subject. We can all make guesses, but it would be nice to know for sure.

Just the opposite. In the history of legal idiocy that usually is the "any time" anti-knives laws we can find two kind of "prohibiciones" from the XVII to XIX century. First at all after banning the use of sword from the common people the rulers understood that a big Navaja with a good lock system was even more dangerous (you can "easyly" conceal a Navaja). So first point to make "out of law", ANY lock system that could keep in place the blade.
Later, they consider that the problem was the very sharp (?) tip. So ALL the navajas has in these times his tip broken apart, like a razor or a sailor folding knife. So thinking about some mandatory ratchet is not very logical. Apart the point thast is quite easy ti open without any noise one of this navajas.


3. Re the Virola (Bolster): What you say makes good sense. It distributes the load imposed by the riveted pivot pin on the handle material. But the design of the bolster influences the strenghth of the handle assembly and this is something that needs elaboration in a work such as that of Forton's.
I agree to some point. I have navajas without bolsters, pastoras for example, made for popular consume that keep in place quite well for the every day task but I think it add some "without eyes" control of the knife if you can feel wher you have your hand in every moment. Do you understand what I mean ? (Sorry but my english has its limits to explain better)
4. Re Size: Once a blade exceeds about 23cm, the handle becomes very weak or else too heavy and thus impractical. Plenty of large `navajas de muestra' (show/exhibition pieces) but I have yet to see one that saw use as indicated by wear and tear. You are right, those with large heavy blades can be flung open very quickly, but despite this remain impractical because of the weakness and weight problems. According to Forton, the average navaja blade was in the 15-23cm range, if I remember correctly, and that is consistent with something that could be put to practical use. With a bridged Virola (bolster) its is possible to make a navaja with a longer blade, say up to around 30cm, but it will be marginal on account of its weight and bulk of the handle.

Still today people like the local gipsys still carriying Navajas on the 26cm or more if they can find it. Even if the law put the limit on 11 cm.
And, you can trust me, they don´t consider the weigth a problem. Actually they are not so heavy as the people think. But the length of teh blade are in very high apreciation for these people.

Also the typical Spanish `Window" lock (Cierro de Ventana) is prone to rapidly develop slack and this free play is greatly accentuated by longer blades.

I´ve had some populars model from the XVII/XIX century with this problem and take just a few minutes for a master smith to put again in use these knives with NO ONE NEW PIECE on it, just the original pieces. I assume that something like this was very common in old days, when almost all the people was carriying some kind of these knives.


5. I think that one of the biggest problems we have trying to understand old navajas and their usage is that the surviving specimens were for most part show pieces or souvenirs and those that saw actual use were worn out and destroyed a long time ago. The people who used them were illiterate and thus we have no written records.

I fully agree in this point, Chris.
Cheers
Chris

Saludos cordiales desde Sevilla.
Rafael S.O.

PS Sorry for all this time off the thread but I visit this place only from time to time.

[ingelred]

Hello,

since I started the discussion about Jun meaning Junior I must admit that this was just a guess.
In many countries Jun is a shortcut for Junior.
I did not know that Jun is a Spain family name.
I also did not know that in Spain the people take both the family names of father and mother.
I learned a lot from this threat, thank You all.

Best regards, Helge

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ingelred

I also did not know that in Spain the people take both the family names of father and mother.

Old time fashions over here. You know that a noble can bear fourteen names alltoghether. When i was born ( a Portuguese peasant ), according to the time fashion, i was given my mother's mother and my father's father last names.
You got it ?
Fernando Manuel Gomes Viana
Your servant