Ottoman Turkish (?) Dagger

Aurangzeb · 16th May 2005, 01:29 AM

Good Evening To All !

Attached are several pictures of what I believe to be a 'Turkish' dagger that I picked up very cheaply at a local coin shop. I believe it's origin may be Ottoman Turkish, World War I era. Extensive repair ( crude ) work can be readily seen on it's handle. The handle sports 'mother-of-pearl' and wood inlay. It has some sort of acid etched inscription on the blade which 'almost' appears to be the English word 'Victory', however at the base of the letter 'V', the two lines forming the 'V' do not meet to truly form that letter. There was no sheath that accompanied it. If anyone can provide any information based on this limited information, it would be truly appreciated. A better image of the inscription can be provided if requested to help in it's possible identification.

Thank you all in advance for any help that you may be able to provide !
Warmest regards to all !
Mark.... Wapwallopen, Pennsylvania, USA

TVV · 16th May 2005, 04:18 AM

I do not think it is Turkish. It looks more Indian to me, and I believe daggers such as this one were made in India in the first half of the twentieth century for westerners fascinated with everything oriental.
I am sure someone will add more information, though.

Aurangzeb · 16th May 2005, 04:43 AM

Hi TVV!

I whould have never thought in a million years it was from India!

With the metal chain on the hilt I whould have thought it was middle eastern/turkish.Considering I have seen many Iranian/Turkish cavalry swords with sutch metal chains on them.That is what led me to believe it was Turkish.Keep in mind the Metal blobs on it are my own repair work.Is this a relative of the jambiya or not.The one book I read said it might be Mexican.

Thanks for the help so far!

Ian · 16th May 2005, 06:08 AM

Well made Indian knife from end of the 19th C. or early 20th C. Made for European trade, as mentioned. The mosaic mother of pearl on the hilt is characteristic, as well as the brass guard and ferrule. I have its cousin that I will be posting shortly in the Swap Section.

Often these have the words "Victory" etched on one side of the blade and "Pure Steel" on the other.

Ian.

Justin · 16th May 2005, 02:34 PM

From what I have seen I believe that these are called kirpan and made by the Sikh in India.I have never seen one that I thought was older than the late 1800s but supposedly these are more modern versions of a traditional form.{feel welcomed to correct me if I am wrong}

Aurangzeb · 16th May 2005, 10:10 PM

Hi all!

Now that we have established that it is Indian,whould this have had a sheath,if so what whould it have looked like?Never herd of this type of weapon,odd it only has "victory" written on both sides.

Thanks again for correcting my mistake!

P.S.-Recently won a Lebanese/Syrian dagger and hope to post it soon!

Ian · 16th May 2005, 11:05 PM

Mark:

Take a look at my post in the Swap Forum today. There is an almost identical knife with its sheath.

Ian.

Aurangzeb · 17th May 2005, 12:31 AM

Hi Ian!

Oh My! It is like they chould be twin daggers!Nice price you are selling it for,I bought mine very cheap!I might even sell it for that musch.

Thanks everyone again for all the help!!!

P.S.-I am about to contact a freind who is a great wood worker and have him make part of the sheath and do the brass fittings myself.

Conogre · 18th May 2005, 05:49 AM

I freely have to admit to having egg on my face over this one (and Justin's too, for that matter

) as I have one nearly identical to Ian's swap item, complete with scabbard only with a simple bone hilt and was told years ago that these were called "kirpans", used by the Sikhs of India.
On the other hand, I've had several with nearly identical hilts that had fullered, damascus blades and, occasionally, reinforced, armor piercing tips and were told that THESE were the ones made for export or take-homes by colonialists, leaving me as confused as embaressed.
In truth, these two are the first that I've seen with the combination of the chain guard and the inlaid MOP hilts.
My next question, I guess, is to ask is anyone else has heard of a "Kirpan" and if there is any validity to the claim that it is a style of knife associated with the Sikhs?
My second question is, pertaining to the blades on these three, doesn't it seem strange that the words "Victory" and "Pure Steel" would be found on knives of the late 1800's/early 1900's?
Perhaps it's just me and exposure to too many Philippine knives circa 1945, but this time period just seems much more appropriate and logical than the earlier designation.
Mike

Rick · 18th May 2005, 03:52 PM

Hi Mike , I believe kirpan is a generic name for a sword . Nowadays they are small but back in the day the Sikhs had to fight to keep their territories and defend themselves from both Hindus , Muslims and other agressors .

http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikhism3.asp

Conogre · 18th May 2005, 04:36 PM

Thanks Rick....I had been told that the chain-hilted dagger/knife with the curved blade was the "modern" (for the past 150 years or so) symbolic incarnation of the sword as the Sikhs had become more civilized and carried by them much in the same context that a rosary might be carried by a Catholic or prayer beads by many muslim or Tibetan sects.
Which brings me back to my original question....are Aurangzeb's and Ian's knives/daggers versions of a kirpan, made the same as the kards with that same hilt that is more commonly/usually seen and that lacks the chain and guard altogether (I've had approximately a half-dozen over the past 7 or 8 years)?
Mike

Aurangzeb · 18th May 2005, 10:17 PM

Hi conogre!

Althogh I am no expert I whould say that they are.I have seen the type of knife you are talking about and to me the resemblence is to similer to be quincidence.O course this is only a novices view so I might not be correct!

P.S.-Was that you I was bidding against recently on 'Ebay' for a arab knife?

tom hyle · 19th May 2005, 10:53 AM

There seems to be some confusion occuring between this, a Sikh kirpan of fairly usual style, and another type of blade, obviously made in the same area, which is a version of a salwar yataghan or pesh kabz with generally smallish blades and a deep groove near the spine, rather than a "T" spine. It is these which are always spoken of as for the foreign (mostly English?) market. The kirpan is for Sikhs, and each Sikh man must wear one at least symbolically (not sure about the women). Its sale to foreigners is incidental. Interestingly, the word "victory" which we are used to as a wwII reference, may be a reference to victory in spiritual struggle in this context.

16th May 2005, 01:29 AM	#1
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Ottoman Turkish (?) Dagger Good Evening To All ! Attached are several pictures of what I believe to be a 'Turkish' dagger that I picked up very cheaply at a local coin shop. I believe it's origin may be Ottoman Turkish, World War I era. Extensive repair ( crude ) work can be readily seen on it's handle. The handle sports 'mother-of-pearl' and wood inlay. It has some sort of acid etched inscription on the blade which 'almost' appears to be the English word 'Victory', however at the base of the letter 'V', the two lines forming the 'V' do not meet to truly form that letter. There was no sheath that accompanied it. If anyone can provide any information based on this limited information, it would be truly appreciated. A better image of the inscription can be provided if requested to help in it's possible identification. Thank you all in advance for any help that you may be able to provide ! Warmest regards to all ! Mark.... Wapwallopen, Pennsylvania, USA Attached Images

16th May 2005, 06:08 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Definitely Indian Well made Indian knife from end of the 19th C. or early 20th C. Made for European trade, as mentioned. The mosaic mother of pearl on the hilt is characteristic, as well as the brass guard and ferrule. I have its cousin that I will be posting shortly in the Swap Section. Often these have the words "Victory" etched on one side of the blade and "Pure Steel" on the other. Ian.

16th May 2005, 11:05 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Sheath Mark: Take a look at my post in the Swap Forum today. There is an almost identical knife with its sheath. Ian.

18th May 2005, 05:49 AM	#9
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I freely have to admit to having egg on my face over this one (and Justin's too, for that matter ) as I have one nearly identical to Ian's swap item, complete with scabbard only with a simple bone hilt and was told years ago that these were called "kirpans", used by the Sikhs of India. On the other hand, I've had several with nearly identical hilts that had fullered, damascus blades and, occasionally, reinforced, armor piercing tips and were told that THESE were the ones made for export or take-homes by colonialists, leaving me as confused as embaressed. In truth, these two are the first that I've seen with the combination of the chain guard and the inlaid MOP hilts. My next question, I guess, is to ask is anyone else has heard of a "Kirpan" and if there is any validity to the claim that it is a style of knife associated with the Sikhs? My second question is, pertaining to the blades on these three, doesn't it seem strange that the words "Victory" and "Pure Steel" would be found on knives of the late 1800's/early 1900's? Perhaps it's just me and exposure to too many Philippine knives circa 1945, but this time period just seems much more appropriate and logical than the earlier designation. Mike Attached Images

19th May 2005, 10:53 AM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	There seems to be some confusion occuring between this, a Sikh kirpan of fairly usual style, and another type of blade, obviously made in the same area, which is a version of a salwar yataghan or pesh kabz with generally smallish blades and a deep groove near the spine, rather than a "T" spine. It is these which are always spoken of as for the foreign (mostly English?) market. The kirpan is for Sikhs, and each Sikh man must wear one at least symbolically (not sure about the women). Its sale to foreigners is incidental. Interestingly, the word "victory" which we are used to as a wwII reference, may be a reference to victory in spiritual struggle in this context. Last edited by tom hyle; 20th May 2005 at 01:12 AM. Reason: "or pesh kabz"

16th May 2005, 04:18 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,623	I do not think it is Turkish. It looks more Indian to me, and I believe daggers such as this one were made in India in the first half of the twentieth century for westerners fascinated with everything oriental. I am sure someone will add more information, though.

16th May 2005, 04:43 AM	#3
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi TVV! I whould have never thought in a million years it was from India! With the metal chain on the hilt I whould have thought it was middle eastern/turkish.Considering I have seen many Iranian/Turkish cavalry swords with sutch metal chains on them.That is what led me to believe it was Turkish.Keep in mind the Metal blobs on it are my own repair work.Is this a relative of the jambiya or not.The one book I read said it might be Mexican. Thanks for the help so far!

16th May 2005, 02:34 PM	#5
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	From what I have seen I believe that these are called kirpan and made by the Sikh in India.I have never seen one that I thought was older than the late 1800s but supposedly these are more modern versions of a traditional form.{feel welcomed to correct me if I am wrong}

16th May 2005, 10:10 PM	#6
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi all! Now that we have established that it is Indian,whould this have had a sheath,if so what whould it have looked like?Never herd of this type of weapon,odd it only has "victory" written on both sides. Thanks again for correcting my mistake! P.S.-Recently won a Lebanese/Syrian dagger and hope to post it soon!

17th May 2005, 12:31 AM	#8
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Ian! Oh My! It is like they chould be twin daggers!Nice price you are selling it for,I bought mine very cheap!I might even sell it for that musch. Thanks everyone again for all the help!!! P.S.-I am about to contact a freind who is a great wood worker and have him make part of the sheath and do the brass fittings myself.

18th May 2005, 03:52 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Mike , I believe kirpan is a generic name for a sword . Nowadays they are small but back in the day the Sikhs had to fight to keep their territories and defend themselves from both Hindus , Muslims and other agressors . http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikhism3.asp

18th May 2005, 04:36 PM	#11
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Thanks Rick....I had been told that the chain-hilted dagger/knife with the curved blade was the "modern" (for the past 150 years or so) symbolic incarnation of the sword as the Sikhs had become more civilized and carried by them much in the same context that a rosary might be carried by a Catholic or prayer beads by many muslim or Tibetan sects. Which brings me back to my original question....are Aurangzeb's and Ian's knives/daggers versions of a kirpan, made the same as the kards with that same hilt that is more commonly/usually seen and that lacks the chain and guard altogether (I've had approximately a half-dozen over the past 7 or 8 years)? Mike

18th May 2005, 10:17 PM	#12
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi conogre! Althogh I am no expert I whould say that they are.I have seen the type of knife you are talking about and to me the resemblence is to similer to be quincidence.O course this is only a novices view so I might not be correct! P.S.-Was that you I was bidding against recently on 'Ebay' for a arab knife?