Spearhead.... North African ?

katana · 17th March 2006, 12:10 PM

I have just bought this spearhead, 12" length, the style seems to be North African, I know I have seen this style used on examples of arrow head. It is quite ornate, in that there are diagonal, crosshatching and crosses delicately stamped on the shaft. Surely too ornate for a hunting spear, but too lethal for a ceremonial one? I certainly wouldn't want this thrown at me, those barbs !??!

. Please has anyone any suggestions as to its origins.

Tim Simmons · 17th March 2006, 06:41 PM

Hello katana,

It certainly is North African. I think Nuer from southern Sudan. Here is a good link to the Pitt Rivers museum collection. http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/qu...Spear&offset=0

Tim

katana · 17th March 2006, 07:08 PM

Thanks Tim, what an interesting site

, looking at the spears, the closest match I can see, seems to be the Dinka Tuich spear acquired in '79. You suggested the Nuer, I must be missing something (nothing new there).
Although there are no barbs on the Dinka Tuich spear it is quite similar

Tim Simmons · 17th March 2006, 07:54 PM

For all I know "Nuer" may well be part of the Dinka people. The thing is that we are able to indentify the region and people, maybe not the exact sub-group. Tim

katana · 17th March 2006, 08:41 PM

Yes you're right, I am new to African weaponry, and I am becoming more aware of the difficulties in tying weapons with particular tribes/groups. Your help and understanding is greatly appreciated.
In your opinion, is this spearhead an uncommon find or are they generally easily acquired. There appears to be some age evident, as it has a nice patina, but how old... I have no idea.
thanks again

Tim Simmons · 17th March 2006, 09:00 PM

I would be lying if I said they were rare, good examples of the any kind of spear, often considered part of a mans dress not just a weapon are always uncommon. Tim

Luc LEFEBVRE · 20th March 2006, 12:23 AM

In "Waffen aus Zentral-Africa" one is described has maybe Mangbetu.
Luc

Tim Simmons · 20th March 2006, 08:35 AM

Yes looks that way; I believe the Mangbetu also inhabit areas of the sothern Sudan.

katana · 20th March 2006, 01:03 PM

Thankyou Luc,
certainly looks like a good match, and the book you referred to seems very informative, the illustrations are excellent.It seems that a great deal of literature regarding African weapons are in German, French and Dutch ( I appreciate the historical reasons for this.) Looks like I will have to try and gradually locate some, and use the 'Babel Fish' translation site to read them.

Luc LEFEBVRE · 20th March 2006, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Thankyou Luc,
certainly looks like a good match, and the book you referred to seems very informative, the illustrations are excellent.It seems that a great deal of literature regarding African weapons are in German, French and Dutch ( I appreciate the historical reasons for this.) Looks like I will have to try and gradually locate some, and use the 'Babel Fish' translation site to read them.

Many books edited in Belgium are french/english/dutch (or german) , so no problem !
You can have a small list on my website at the bottom of this page:
http://lulef.free.fr/html/armes_africaines.html

Luc

katana · 21st March 2006, 05:51 PM

Thanks Luc, I like your website, so it's now in my 'favorites' in my web browser.

Wodimi · 1st April 2006, 12:44 PM

Hello Katana,

I just find your spear tip question. What you have is definitely a spear tip from the Tubu living in the South East Sahara, mostly in Chad, but also in Niger and South Libya. For reference you can look in Peter Fuchs; Die Völker der Südost-Sahara; page 31. There are some similarities to Mangbetu spears, that's right, but they all have asymmetrical blades. Attached also a Tubu spear (the first from above) from my collection. This throwing spears are around 130 cm long and have at the end of the wooden shaft a small copper winding.

Wolf

katana · 1st April 2006, 12:52 PM

Thanks Wolf,
I appreciate your help,I must say those spears you posted in this thread look very nice

Tim Simmons · 1st April 2006, 06:33 PM

Wolf, how similar are your all metal spears to this one. These I believe are pan-sub Saharan, coming from a huge belt across SW Sudan/Chad to Mali, with regional differences. Tim

Wodimi · 2nd April 2006, 12:33 AM

nice example Tim, my spear is a little bit different in the lower part. Mine, which comes from Algeria near Tam, have not this three fixing points. May be you're right and yours is more from Chad region. I have another spear with also similar fixing points which comes from North East Nigeria.

Tim Simmons · 2nd April 2006, 11:06 AM

Hello wolf, what appears to be fixings are just decorrative brass plates added to the complete steel spear. That is a very nice blade on the other spear.

katana · 2nd April 2006, 09:40 PM

Wolf, Tim,
love the spears, haven't got any examples myself, but I'm working on it.

The Double D · 19th June 2006, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodimi

Hello Katana,

I just find your spear tip question. What you have is definitely a spear tip from the Tubu living in the South East Sahara, mostly in Chad, but also in Niger and South Libya. For reference you can look in Peter Fuchs; Die Völker der Südost-Sahara; page 31. There are some similarities to Mangbetu spears, that's right, but they all have asymmetrical blades. Attached also a Tubu spear (the first from above) from my collection. This throwing spears are around 130 cm long and have at the end of the wooden shaft a small copper winding.

Wolf

I'm not sure how you are identifing the top Spear. Are you calling it Tabu?

katana · 19th June 2006, 11:02 PM

DD

I am certain Wodimi is refering to the top spear

The Double D · 19th June 2006, 11:10 PM

So we now have this spear point idnetifiede as Zande-Manbetu-Tabu?

Are these people related or from the same geographic area?

17th March 2006, 12:10 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Spearhead.... North African ? I have just bought this spearhead, 12" length, the style seems to be North African, I know I have seen this style used on examples of arrow head. It is quite ornate, in that there are diagonal, crosshatching and crosses delicately stamped on the shaft. Surely too ornate for a hunting spear, but too lethal for a ceremonial one? I certainly wouldn't want this thrown at me, those barbs !??! . Please has anyone any suggestions as to its origins. Attached Images

17th March 2006, 06:41 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello katana, It certainly is North African. I think Nuer from southern Sudan. Here is a good link to the Pitt Rivers museum collection. http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/qu...Spear&offset=0 Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 17th March 2006 at 06:57 PM.

17th March 2006, 07:08 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Tim, what an interesting site , looking at the spears, the closest match I can see, seems to be the Dinka Tuich spear acquired in '79. You suggested the Nuer, I must be missing something (nothing new there). Although there are no barbs on the Dinka Tuich spear it is quite similar Attached Images Last edited by katana; 17th March 2006 at 07:19 PM.

20th March 2006, 12:23 AM	#7
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	In "Waffen aus Zentral-Africa" one is described has maybe Mangbetu. Luc Attached Images

1st April 2006, 12:44 PM	#12
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	Hello Katana, I just find your spear tip question. What you have is definitely a spear tip from the Tubu living in the South East Sahara, mostly in Chad, but also in Niger and South Libya. For reference you can look in Peter Fuchs; Die Völker der Südost-Sahara; page 31. There are some similarities to Mangbetu spears, that's right, but they all have asymmetrical blades. Attached also a Tubu spear (the first from above) from my collection. This throwing spears are around 130 cm long and have at the end of the wooden shaft a small copper winding. Wolf Attached Images

17th March 2006, 07:54 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	For all I know "Nuer" may well be part of the Dinka people. The thing is that we are able to indentify the region and people, maybe not the exact sub-group. Tim

17th March 2006, 08:41 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Yes you're right, I am new to African weaponry, and I am becoming more aware of the difficulties in tying weapons with particular tribes/groups. Your help and understanding is greatly appreciated. In your opinion, is this spearhead an uncommon find or are they generally easily acquired. There appears to be some age evident, as it has a nice patina, but how old... I have no idea. thanks again

17th March 2006, 09:00 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I would be lying if I said they were rare, good examples of the any kind of spear, often considered part of a mans dress not just a weapon are always uncommon. Tim

20th March 2006, 08:35 AM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes looks that way; I believe the Mangbetu also inhabit areas of the sothern Sudan.

20th March 2006, 01:03 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thankyou Luc, certainly looks like a good match, and the book you referred to seems very informative, the illustrations are excellent.It seems that a great deal of literature regarding African weapons are in German, French and Dutch ( I appreciate the historical reasons for this.) Looks like I will have to try and gradually locate some, and use the 'Babel Fish' translation site to read them.

21st March 2006, 05:51 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Luc, I like your website, so it's now in my 'favorites' in my web browser.

1st April 2006, 12:52 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Wolf, I appreciate your help,I must say those spears you posted in this thread look very nice

1st April 2006, 06:33 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Wolf, how similar are your all metal spears to this one. These I believe are pan-sub Saharan, coming from a huge belt across SW Sudan/Chad to Mali, with regional differences. Tim Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 1st April 2006 at 06:45 PM.

2nd April 2006, 12:33 AM	#15
Wodimi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 75	nice example Tim, my spear is a little bit different in the lower part. Mine, which comes from Algeria near Tam, have not this three fixing points. May be you're right and yours is more from Chad region. I have another spear with also similar fixing points which comes from North East Nigeria. Attached Images

2nd April 2006, 11:06 AM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello wolf, what appears to be fixings are just decorrative brass plates added to the complete steel spear. That is a very nice blade on the other spear. Attached Images

2nd April 2006, 09:40 PM	#17
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Wolf, Tim, love the spears, haven't got any examples myself, but I'm working on it.

19th June 2006, 11:02 PM	#19
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	DD I am certain Wodimi is refering to the top spear

19th June 2006, 11:10 PM	#20
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	So we now have this spear point idnetifiede as Zande-Manbetu-Tabu? Are these people related or from the same geographic area?