Can you please help identify this chinese sword?

Blade · 2nd June 2005, 12:24 AM

I have this Dao sword,

It measures about 110 cm, it pretty heavy.
The blade looks pattern welded (damescus steel), and it is sharp.

since the pictures are a little big, i uploaded them to this address:

http://www.geocities.com/blade234k/Dao.html

1) I would like to hear your opinions about this sword, is it original, does it look antique, from what period, where it was probably produced, etc'.

2) how can i tell whether it is really pattern welded or it is ordinary steel with pattern etched upon it?

thanks

Yaniv

Rick · 2nd June 2005, 02:54 AM

Where did you get it ?

Andrew · 2nd June 2005, 03:21 AM

Welcome to the forum, Blade. I am truly not an expert on this, and I've emailed the link to this thread to Philip Tom and Scott Rodell for their opinions.

However, my casual, inexpert, observation is that this looks newly manufactured.

Philip · 2nd June 2005, 07:12 AM

The images show what is known as a peidao, a saber intended to be worn suspended from the belt. It was a standard military sidearm of the late Ming (1368-1644) and Qing (1644-1911) Dynasties. These weapons are classified according to blade shape, and exhibit a wide variation in workmanship and decoration.

The blade on this one MAY be an original, I prefer to withhold a definitive judgement until a more thorough examination can be conducted. It is of pattern welded steel. There is an inserted high-carbon edge plate, and these blades are invariably heat treated in differential fashion so that the edge hardness is considerably greater than that of the spine (back). Note that smiths in China today are capable of doing work which is superficially comparable to what was done centuries ago (just as their counterparts in Japan, Indonesia, and India are doing so in similar fashion to cater to the collector market).

As regards to the mountings, I agree with Andrew. Definitely new. Having examined many hundreds of peidao over a period of decades, there are characteristics of the materials, proportions and form, and decoration of the scabbard, grip, and all metal fittings which do not correspond to historical examples. The "dress" of this saber has what I call the Hollywood-ized aesthetic which is seen on movie-prop weapons from Chinese historical dramas and martial arts films, or on the all-too-numerous fakes being peddled on eBay.

I will be glad to identify the fine points of what makes distinguishes these fittings as new, if individual members would like to email me directly. My colleague Scott Rodell and I have found that too-explicit discussion of the characteristics of newly-made swords is often picked up by some readers of online forums, and the info gets passed back to the fakesters back in Asia.

Having tracked this market for over a decade, and seeing the best of what's coming out of Indonesia, China, and India today, I note that the fakes are getting better and better. When a well-known European auction house such as Hermann Historica regularly features new keris as "late 19th--early 20th cent." and purportedly Ming bronze hand-cannon barrels which are in fact brand spanking new, it gets scary. Readers should also be aware that just because a blade is damascus, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily old. Two summers ago, I saw some beautifully forged pattern welded talwar blades, with the Delhi "parasol" armory mark, offered at the Birmingham (UK) arms fair. Their hilts, and the absurdly low prices, gave them away as repros. The salesman behind the counter was not exactly straightforward about their status as reproductions. An overly- enthusiastic buyer who has not studied and handled the real McCoy could easily be "reeled in".

BluErf · 2nd June 2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

When a well-known European auction house such as Hermann Historica regularly features new keris as "late 19th--early 20th cent." and purportedly Ming bronze hand-cannon barrels which are in fact brand spanking new, it gets scary.

I think the auction houses, even christie's and sotheby's, do not put in enough effort/expertise to correctly identify arms and armour (maybe except for Japanese and Indo-persian arms) because they are not major money pullers, like paintings and jewellery. And whether they are identified correctly or not, they still get sold (Collectors "know").

Andrew · 2nd June 2005, 04:39 PM

Thank you, Philip.

One of the things that prevented me from opining more strongly about this (aside from my lack of experience

) was that the blade looked pretty good. It's really hard to tell from photos whether it is the real thing, or just a well-made contemporary blade.

A look at the tang would be interesting.

ariel · 2nd June 2005, 04:45 PM

It is getting scarier and scarier: the quality of fakes improves by leaps and bounds and spreads from one blade culture to another. This is not surprising: look what happens in the arts field. Major museums are regularly found to have fake Rembrandts, Rubenses and Picassos. A possibility of profit always attracts fakers, and this was true for as long as people started to collect things: even ancient Romans were known to make fake Greek sculptures .
We can try and defend ourselves, but the offense always wins....

fearn · 2nd June 2005, 09:04 PM

Hi Ariel,

Personally, I'm not quite as worried, simply because a high quality fake is still pretty expensive to make. Part of the trick for the forgers is having a big enough profit margin to make accuracy profitable. The nice thing with many of these weapons is that we're paying for quality in the antique, as well as age and authenticity (not always, I know, but often enough).

Personally, I'll worry when metallurgy (or nanotechnology?) gets to the point where fakers can cheaply afford to produce quality weapons, using silver, rhino horn, or whatever. I'd also pont out that, if wages get high enough in China, we might see a sudden end to this flood, at least for a while. Much of this is only possible because skilled labor is still reasonably cheap over there.

I also wish that there was a good market for "high quality reproductions," but I suspect that enough people were just born crooked that this will always be a dream. It could also be Gresham's Law at work, I suppose (bad swords drive good swords out of the marketplace).

Fearn

2nd June 2005, 12:24 AM	#1
Blade Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 9	Can you please help identify this chinese sword? I have this Dao sword, It measures about 110 cm, it pretty heavy. The blade looks pattern welded (damescus steel), and it is sharp. since the pictures are a little big, i uploaded them to this address: http://www.geocities.com/blade234k/Dao.html 1) I would like to hear your opinions about this sword, is it original, does it look antique, from what period, where it was probably produced, etc'. 2) how can i tell whether it is really pattern welded or it is ordinary steel with pattern etched upon it? thanks Yaniv

2nd June 2005, 02:54 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Where did you get it ?

2nd June 2005, 03:21 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Welcome to the forum, Blade. I am truly not an expert on this, and I've emailed the link to this thread to Philip Tom and Scott Rodell for their opinions. However, my casual, inexpert, observation is that this looks newly manufactured.

2nd June 2005, 07:12 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	The images show what is known as a peidao, a saber intended to be worn suspended from the belt. It was a standard military sidearm of the late Ming (1368-1644) and Qing (1644-1911) Dynasties. These weapons are classified according to blade shape, and exhibit a wide variation in workmanship and decoration. The blade on this one MAY be an original, I prefer to withhold a definitive judgement until a more thorough examination can be conducted. It is of pattern welded steel. There is an inserted high-carbon edge plate, and these blades are invariably heat treated in differential fashion so that the edge hardness is considerably greater than that of the spine (back). Note that smiths in China today are capable of doing work which is superficially comparable to what was done centuries ago (just as their counterparts in Japan, Indonesia, and India are doing so in similar fashion to cater to the collector market). As regards to the mountings, I agree with Andrew. Definitely new. Having examined many hundreds of peidao over a period of decades, there are characteristics of the materials, proportions and form, and decoration of the scabbard, grip, and all metal fittings which do not correspond to historical examples. The "dress" of this saber has what I call the Hollywood-ized aesthetic which is seen on movie-prop weapons from Chinese historical dramas and martial arts films, or on the all-too-numerous fakes being peddled on eBay. I will be glad to identify the fine points of what makes distinguishes these fittings as new, if individual members would like to email me directly. My colleague Scott Rodell and I have found that too-explicit discussion of the characteristics of newly-made swords is often picked up by some readers of online forums, and the info gets passed back to the fakesters back in Asia. Having tracked this market for over a decade, and seeing the best of what's coming out of Indonesia, China, and India today, I note that the fakes are getting better and better. When a well-known European auction house such as Hermann Historica regularly features new keris as "late 19th--early 20th cent." and purportedly Ming bronze hand-cannon barrels which are in fact brand spanking new, it gets scary. Readers should also be aware that just because a blade is damascus, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily old. Two summers ago, I saw some beautifully forged pattern welded talwar blades, with the Delhi "parasol" armory mark, offered at the Birmingham (UK) arms fair. Their hilts, and the absurdly low prices, gave them away as repros. The salesman behind the counter was not exactly straightforward about their status as reproductions. An overly- enthusiastic buyer who has not studied and handled the real McCoy could easily be "reeled in".

2nd June 2005, 04:39 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thank you, Philip. One of the things that prevented me from opining more strongly about this (aside from my lack of experience ) was that the blade looked pretty good. It's really hard to tell from photos whether it is the real thing, or just a well-made contemporary blade. A look at the tang would be interesting.

2nd June 2005, 04:45 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is getting scarier and scarier: the quality of fakes improves by leaps and bounds and spreads from one blade culture to another. This is not surprising: look what happens in the arts field. Major museums are regularly found to have fake Rembrandts, Rubenses and Picassos. A possibility of profit always attracts fakers, and this was true for as long as people started to collect things: even ancient Romans were known to make fake Greek sculptures . We can try and defend ourselves, but the offense always wins....

2nd June 2005, 09:04 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ariel, Personally, I'm not quite as worried, simply because a high quality fake is still pretty expensive to make. Part of the trick for the forgers is having a big enough profit margin to make accuracy profitable. The nice thing with many of these weapons is that we're paying for quality in the antique, as well as age and authenticity (not always, I know, but often enough). Personally, I'll worry when metallurgy (or nanotechnology?) gets to the point where fakers can cheaply afford to produce quality weapons, using silver, rhino horn, or whatever. I'd also pont out that, if wages get high enough in China, we might see a sudden end to this flood, at least for a while. Much of this is only possible because skilled labor is still reasonably cheap over there. I also wish that there was a good market for "high quality reproductions," but I suspect that enough people were just born crooked that this will always be a dream. It could also be Gresham's Law at work, I suppose (bad swords drive good swords out of the marketplace). Fearn