Possible Pajajaran Keris for comment....

BSMStar · 11th February 2005, 11:09 PM

I took a chance and purchased this Keris... the blade appears to be very old with corrosion that looks like "mud cracks" and small pits. The Keris is small (the blade is about 24.0 cm) with what appears to be Kul Buntet pamor. The peksi is replaced, but you can see the original peksi between the ganja and the blade (where it is corroded and shows through).

Any ideas on how old this Keris may be? Genuine?

It came in this Keris bag, can someone tell about it too? Thanks!

Henk · 13th February 2005, 01:28 PM

It looks like pamor Kul Buntet to me. Looks also like a very old blade. What do you mean by "the peksi is replaced"? The peksi is the angle on which the mendak and ukiran is mounted and that is not visible. The Jogya dress is brandnew, but to me it looks like a very nice keris.

BSMStar · 13th February 2005, 05:17 PM

Hi Henk!

The peksi looks new (not corroded at all). It appears to have no pamor. It was an expert job in replacement... but it has a slightly noticable smaller diameter than the original (you can still see the original, as earlier stated). Otherwise it is perfect.

BSMStar · 15th February 2005, 11:26 PM

I hope these are helpful...

Henk · 16th February 2005, 10:05 AM

Yes, that is a new peksi. Welded again to the keris. it is also possible that the old peksi is still present. The age of your keris and the many etchings might have eaten away the original peksi. This new peksi could be a tube on the lower site and placed over the remaining peksi. Nevertheless a beatiful old blade in my opinion.

Jan · 16th February 2005, 10:08 AM

Hello,
the letters "HB IX" on the bag stand for Hamengku Buwana IX, the former sultan of Yogyakarta. He was the traditional ruler of Yogyakarta from 1939 until his death in 1988. He is still very popular and highly honored for his role in the struggle for Indonesian independence 1945-49.
The emblem looks similar to the coat-of-arms of the Keraton Ngayogyakarta Hadiningrat, his palace.

BSMStar · 16th February 2005, 12:54 PM

Thank you Henk and Jan for your input!!!!

The blade looks like it has pamor; do you think it is with nickel or a phosphorus iron?

The dapur and size reminds me of a 14c Keris, any ideas?

Thank you for your help!

BSMStar

Henk · 16th February 2005, 06:51 PM

The blade has pamor, thats for sure. Tammens wrote in his books about different colors of pamor depending on the kind of metalls that were used. Tammens wrote also about research on the metal of keris and that older keris show after analysis that during the forging-proces meteorite pamor was used. Meteorite metal contains nickle in different degrees.

In my opinion it is an very old blade but I don't have the courage to date it.

BSMStar · 24th February 2005, 10:17 PM

With so many artificially aged Keris for sale, I was hoping to here more ideas about this Keris... is it "authentic" (meaning is it old)??

What make an old Keris a Pusaka (once it is sold, is it still considered an heirloom)?

This is a great link:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/

Please note the transitions (see #3, it is similar to the above Keris).

I think the Keris bag is "made up." But can anyone tell me about it, have you seen others?

Any other ideas? I want the good and the bad news (I learn more from the bad news

) Thanks!

BSMStar

marto suwignyo · 25th February 2005, 12:05 AM

YES, IT IS VERY DEFINITELY AN OLD KERIS. IT IS IN VERY BAD CONDITION, BUT IT IS AN OLD KERIS, AND BEFORE IT BECAME SO BADLY DEGRADED, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A FAIRLY ATTRACTIVE KERIS. FROM WHAT I CAN SEE IN THE PHOTO, IT LOOKS AS IF IT COULD BE PAJAJARAN, BUT TO CORRECTLY READ THE INDICATORS OF TANGGUH,IT IS OFTEN NECESSARY TO HANDLE A BLADE.THE CONTRASTING PAMOR MATERIAL IN YOUR KERIS PROBABLY IS WHITE IRON.

THE WORD "PUSAKA" MEANS, IN BROAD TERMS, "HEIRLOOM", BUT IT IS APPLIED COLLOQUIALLY TO KERIS, TOMBAK, AND OTHER WESI AJI TO MEAN THE ACTUAL BLADE OF THE KERIS OR TOMBAK.
WHEN THE WORD IS USED IN A FORMAL SENSE , IT HAS AN IMPLICATION THAT GOES BEYOND THE IDEA WE ASSOCIATE WITH THE IDEA OF HEIRLOOM. A PUSAKA KERIS IS A KERIS WHICH BELONGS WITHIN A KINSHIP GROUP, AND DESCENDS FROM ONE GENERATION TO THE NEXT. IT IS BELIEVED TO TIE THE CURRENT HOLDER OF THE KERIS TO HIS FOREBEARS, AND ALSO TO THE OTHER MEMBERS OF HIS KINSHIP GROUP.IT CAN BE REGARDED AS A COSMIC CONNECTOR THAT JOINS PAST AND PRESENT IN ONE DIMENSION, AND ALL IN A KINSHIP GROUP IN THE PRESENT DIMENSION.
A PUSAKA DOES NOT NEED TO BE AN ITEM OF WESI AJI, IT CAN BE A RICE POT, A SADDLE, OR EVEN A BUILDING.

A JAVANESE RULER NEEDS TO HAVE POSSESSION OF THE ROYAL PUSAKAS TO LEGITIMISE HIS RULE.

THE CLOTH BAG IS CALLED A SINGAP. IT IS THE WAY IN WHICH JAVANESE KERIS ARE NORMALLY STORED. EVEN WHEN A KERIS IS STORED IN A SPECIAL KERIS CHEST, IT WILL NORMALLY BE PLACED IN A SINGAP FIRST.

nechesh · 25th February 2005, 12:05 AM

Wayne, sorry i took so long to jump in on this one. I love keris with the kul buntet pamor. I own 2 myself. Something very mystical and archetypical about that swirling spiral.

I boast no real skills at judging tangguh, but i will go out on a limb and suggest that this keris is genuinely old. How old i can't say but i would imagine at least 16thC. As for the keris bag, these are very traditional and i have one for most of my keris. None of mine have any embroidery on them, but they come in all different types of material. Does anyone know the traditional name for these?
Pusaka means heirloom and refers to any sacred object of power that is passed down through the generations. This is about the transference of power and i believe this idea originally started on the royal level with the practice filtering down to the common man. It is an arguable point, but my feeling tends to be that once the chain is broken the keris cannot rightfully be called pusaka.

BSMStar · 25th February 2005, 06:30 PM

Thank you marto suwignyo and nechesh!

It seems the verdict is that this is a very old blade.

I have a basic understanding of "Pusaka" yet, my Western mind still struggles to fully reason and understand the complete meaning.

It seems that once the “Honor” of the title of Pusaka is bestowed on an object, it can just as easily be lost or removed. In my thinking, it would seem that Pusaka would be associate with the object in question, rather than being associated with the people in possession of it, no? But it seems, that I am incorrect. Otherwise, once it becomes a Pusaka, it would always remain a Pusaka… true?

No matter, I fell in love with this Keris the first time I laid eyes on it. It called to me in that way that only a Keris can sometimes do…. This Keris has trod the stones of many years and it is not the fault of the Keris that it finds itself in its current condition. It will always have a place of honor and respect in my home… and again treated as an heirloom.

I really, really do appreciate the help you all have given me!. But I always want to learn more!

BSMStar · 25th February 2005, 06:58 PM

Also, the Keris bag (Singap)....

I did not expect to receive this bag with the Keris, so it did not influence my decision to purchase the Keris. I was a bit surprised to see the embroidery work (all the others I have are "plain")... and more than surprised to learn that it contained the initials of Sultan Hamengku Buwana IX!

Are there other Singap out there like this? Was this done to deceive or is there a legitimate reason for the embroidery?

Thank you all again!

PS. Here is a link I found on Ageman vs. Pusaka Tayuhan that states that a Penawang (white iron) made Keris is not a Pusaka. It also refers to each "Kingdom" or Periods as Pusaka.

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris08.html

My question is, was that true back in the 14-16c, since meteorite was not "available" until 18c (or later)?

BSMStar

BluErf · 26th February 2005, 01:07 AM

Hi, there are lots of singap out there with initials of various Javanese kings embroidered/sequinned on them, not the least HB X. I have at seen at one particular shop half a dozen of such singaps, so don't place too high hopes on them.

And on Javanese kerises, especially the pendok, one often sees the royal insignia engraved at the back, and I'm quite certain the kerises had nothing to do with the kraton.

BSMStar · 26th February 2005, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi, there are lots of singap out there with initials of various Javanese kings embroidered/sequinned on them, not the least HB X. I have at seen at one particular shop half a dozen of such singaps, so don't place too high hopes on them.

And on Javanese kerises, especially the pendok, one often sees the royal insignia engraved at the back, and I'm quite certain the kerises had nothing to do with the kraton.

Hi BluErf,

I did not have any high hopes (in fact, I was suspicious of Keris when I saw the singap)...

I was just curious if this was a "common" practice (maybe by power of association to have such an honored person/place embroidered on the singap) since I have not seen one like it before. The quality of the embroidery wasn't good enough to impress me that it would have belonged to a Sultan. The mendok doesn't meet the quality one would expect to see on a Royal Keris. The Keris was not advertised to be a Royal Keris. So I did not have any reason to expect an association to such a high person and place.... but I had to ask.

I'm content that this Keris found me.

Thank you BluErf for you experience and help.

BSMStar

BSMStar · 27th February 2005, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Here is a link I found on Ageman vs. Pusaka Tayuhan that states that a Penawang (white iron) made Keris is not a Pusaka. It also refers to each "Kingdom" or Periods as Pusaka.

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris08.html

My question is, was that true back in the 14-16c, since meteorite was not "available" until 18c (or later)?

Any comments on this?

BSMStar

11th February 2005, 11:09 PM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Possible Pajajaran Keris for comment.... I took a chance and purchased this Keris... the blade appears to be very old with corrosion that looks like "mud cracks" and small pits. The Keris is small (the blade is about 24.0 cm) with what appears to be Kul Buntet pamor. The peksi is replaced, but you can see the original peksi between the ganja and the blade (where it is corroded and shows through). Any ideas on how old this Keris may be? Genuine? It came in this Keris bag, can someone tell about it too? Thanks! Attached Images Last edited by BSMStar; 11th February 2005 at 11:57 PM.

15th February 2005, 11:26 PM	#4
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Here are some more Pictrues I hope these are helpful... Attached Images

24th February 2005, 10:17 PM	#9
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Pusaka With so many artificially aged Keris for sale, I was hoping to here more ideas about this Keris... is it "authentic" (meaning is it old)?? What make an old Keris a Pusaka (once it is sold, is it still considered an heirloom)? This is a great link: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/ Please note the transitions (see #3, it is similar to the above Keris). I think the Keris bag is "made up." But can anyone tell me about it, have you seen others? Any other ideas? I want the good and the bad news (I learn more from the bad news ) Thanks! BSMStar Last edited by BSMStar; 24th February 2005 at 10:44 PM.

25th February 2005, 06:30 PM	#12
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Thank you marto suwignyo and nechesh! It seems the verdict is that this is a very old blade. I have a basic understanding of "Pusaka" yet, my Western mind still struggles to fully reason and understand the complete meaning. It seems that once the “Honor” of the title of Pusaka is bestowed on an object, it can just as easily be lost or removed. In my thinking, it would seem that Pusaka would be associate with the object in question, rather than being associated with the people in possession of it, no? But it seems, that I am incorrect. Otherwise, once it becomes a Pusaka, it would always remain a Pusaka… true? No matter, I fell in love with this Keris the first time I laid eyes on it. It called to me in that way that only a Keris can sometimes do…. This Keris has trod the stones of many years and it is not the fault of the Keris that it finds itself in its current condition. It will always have a place of honor and respect in my home… and again treated as an heirloom. I really, really do appreciate the help you all have given me!. But I always want to learn more! Last edited by BSMStar; 25th February 2005 at 07:03 PM.

25th February 2005, 06:58 PM	#13
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	FYI Also, the Keris bag (Singap).... I did not expect to receive this bag with the Keris, so it did not influence my decision to purchase the Keris. I was a bit surprised to see the embroidery work (all the others I have are "plain")... and more than surprised to learn that it contained the initials of Sultan Hamengku Buwana IX! Are there other Singap out there like this? Was this done to deceive or is there a legitimate reason for the embroidery? Thank you all again! PS. Here is a link I found on Ageman vs. Pusaka Tayuhan that states that a Penawang (white iron) made Keris is not a Pusaka. It also refers to each "Kingdom" or Periods as Pusaka. http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris08.html My question is, was that true back in the 14-16c, since meteorite was not "available" until 18c (or later)? BSMStar Last edited by BSMStar; 25th February 2005 at 10:18 PM.

13th February 2005, 01:28 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	It looks like pamor Kul Buntet to me. Looks also like a very old blade. What do you mean by "the peksi is replaced"? The peksi is the angle on which the mendak and ukiran is mounted and that is not visible. The Jogya dress is brandnew, but to me it looks like a very nice keris.

13th February 2005, 05:17 PM	#3
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Replaced peksi Hi Henk! The peksi looks new (not corroded at all). It appears to have no pamor. It was an expert job in replacement... but it has a slightly noticable smaller diameter than the original (you can still see the original, as earlier stated). Otherwise it is perfect.

16th February 2005, 10:05 AM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Yes, that is a new peksi. Welded again to the keris. it is also possible that the old peksi is still present. The age of your keris and the many etchings might have eaten away the original peksi. This new peksi could be a tube on the lower site and placed over the remaining peksi. Nevertheless a beatiful old blade in my opinion.

16th February 2005, 10:08 AM	#6
Jan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 8	Hello, the letters "HB IX" on the bag stand for Hamengku Buwana IX, the former sultan of Yogyakarta. He was the traditional ruler of Yogyakarta from 1939 until his death in 1988. He is still very popular and highly honored for his role in the struggle for Indonesian independence 1945-49. The emblem looks similar to the coat-of-arms of the Keraton Ngayogyakarta Hadiningrat, his palace.

16th February 2005, 12:54 PM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Thank you Henk and Jan for your input!!!! The blade looks like it has pamor; do you think it is with nickel or a phosphorus iron? The dapur and size reminds me of a 14c Keris, any ideas? Thank you for your help! BSMStar

16th February 2005, 06:51 PM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	The blade has pamor, thats for sure. Tammens wrote in his books about different colors of pamor depending on the kind of metalls that were used. Tammens wrote also about research on the metal of keris and that older keris show after analysis that during the forging-proces meteorite pamor was used. Meteorite metal contains nickle in different degrees. In my opinion it is an very old blade but I don't have the courage to date it.

25th February 2005, 12:05 AM	#10
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	YES, IT IS VERY DEFINITELY AN OLD KERIS. IT IS IN VERY BAD CONDITION, BUT IT IS AN OLD KERIS, AND BEFORE IT BECAME SO BADLY DEGRADED, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A FAIRLY ATTRACTIVE KERIS. FROM WHAT I CAN SEE IN THE PHOTO, IT LOOKS AS IF IT COULD BE PAJAJARAN, BUT TO CORRECTLY READ THE INDICATORS OF TANGGUH,IT IS OFTEN NECESSARY TO HANDLE A BLADE.THE CONTRASTING PAMOR MATERIAL IN YOUR KERIS PROBABLY IS WHITE IRON. THE WORD "PUSAKA" MEANS, IN BROAD TERMS, "HEIRLOOM", BUT IT IS APPLIED COLLOQUIALLY TO KERIS, TOMBAK, AND OTHER WESI AJI TO MEAN THE ACTUAL BLADE OF THE KERIS OR TOMBAK. WHEN THE WORD IS USED IN A FORMAL SENSE , IT HAS AN IMPLICATION THAT GOES BEYOND THE IDEA WE ASSOCIATE WITH THE IDEA OF HEIRLOOM. A PUSAKA KERIS IS A KERIS WHICH BELONGS WITHIN A KINSHIP GROUP, AND DESCENDS FROM ONE GENERATION TO THE NEXT. IT IS BELIEVED TO TIE THE CURRENT HOLDER OF THE KERIS TO HIS FOREBEARS, AND ALSO TO THE OTHER MEMBERS OF HIS KINSHIP GROUP.IT CAN BE REGARDED AS A COSMIC CONNECTOR THAT JOINS PAST AND PRESENT IN ONE DIMENSION, AND ALL IN A KINSHIP GROUP IN THE PRESENT DIMENSION. A PUSAKA DOES NOT NEED TO BE AN ITEM OF WESI AJI, IT CAN BE A RICE POT, A SADDLE, OR EVEN A BUILDING. A JAVANESE RULER NEEDS TO HAVE POSSESSION OF THE ROYAL PUSAKAS TO LEGITIMISE HIS RULE. THE CLOTH BAG IS CALLED A SINGAP. IT IS THE WAY IN WHICH JAVANESE KERIS ARE NORMALLY STORED. EVEN WHEN A KERIS IS STORED IN A SPECIAL KERIS CHEST, IT WILL NORMALLY BE PLACED IN A SINGAP FIRST.

25th February 2005, 12:05 AM	#11
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wayne, sorry i took so long to jump in on this one. I love keris with the kul buntet pamor. I own 2 myself. Something very mystical and archetypical about that swirling spiral. I boast no real skills at judging tangguh, but i will go out on a limb and suggest that this keris is genuinely old. How old i can't say but i would imagine at least 16thC. As for the keris bag, these are very traditional and i have one for most of my keris. None of mine have any embroidery on them, but they come in all different types of material. Does anyone know the traditional name for these? Pusaka means heirloom and refers to any sacred object of power that is passed down through the generations. This is about the transference of power and i believe this idea originally started on the royal level with the practice filtering down to the common man. It is an arguable point, but my feeling tends to be that once the chain is broken the keris cannot rightfully be called pusaka.

26th February 2005, 01:07 AM	#14
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi, there are lots of singap out there with initials of various Javanese kings embroidered/sequinned on them, not the least HB X. I have at seen at one particular shop half a dozen of such singaps, so don't place too high hopes on them. And on Javanese kerises, especially the pendok, one often sees the royal insignia engraved at the back, and I'm quite certain the kerises had nothing to do with the kraton.