English Short Sword

celtan · 16th October 2009, 06:31 AM

Hi Guys,

I have had this sword for a long while. Originally bough same as belonging to the "Tower Of London Beefeater" guards, but it doesn't seem to fit the bill, at least to me.

The blade was soiled to the point of blackness. Once cleaned, it evidenced faded and worn signs of its original etching. The words "Covent Garden" were eventually seen, very faint, at its ricasso. The half-shell guard's shield seems to correspond to the Portcullis in London's Westminster Abbey.

The etching and fish skin grips seem to suggest a post 1850s to early 20th C. manufacture date.

Any ideas, beyond what I already know? A coronation guard? An abbey grounds warden?

I know there were at least a couple sword retailers at Covent Garden: "Hamburger Rogers & Co" and "J & B PEARSE & CO".

(BTW, I hope this is not another of the usual cases where nobody else knows more than I do. )

: )

Best

Manolo

Caveat: This, as any of any and all of the other blades in my collection, may be sold at some point in time in the future..!

kahnjar1 · 16th October 2009, 07:22 AM

The badge is the Customs and Excise/Revenue (British) badge, so presumably their Dress?? sword/dagger??
Regards Stuart

celtan · 16th October 2009, 12:57 PM

Thank you Stuart!

And yet, the portcullis and chains are the traditional Tudor and Westminster Arms, and in mine, the hat-piece over the Portcullis looks more like a miter than a crown. Even so, your suggestion seems very plausible. Now I need to research that venue.

Thanks for again coming to the rescue!

Best regards.

: )

Manolo

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2009, 06:23 PM

Manolo, what an exceptionally unusual item, which I believe may indeed be associated with the 'Beefeaters', who were termed Tower Warders, and I believe accordingly these may be considered one of thier swords. The style of the weapon is very much in accord with particular corps and departmental swords of the Victorian period, noting that Stuarts suggestion is quite plausible as well.

It seems of course that I have seen something similar in references on British military swords, although these guards are comprised of retired military men of considerable standing and this is unofficially a yeomanry unit. I have checked "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975), but no reference was found, therefore I think it is in one of the earlier books which I do not have with me. Possibly "British Military Swords 1800 to Present Day" by John Wilkinson-Latham (1966) or another one which I cant recall specifically, I think something with similar title, also by another of the Wilkinson's but cannot recall which.
It is possible that it was in the venerable "Sword, Lance & Bayonet" by Ffoulkes and Hopkinson (1938), but these books I have not seen for some time.

In any case, as you have noted, the Westminster arms are indeed with the charges of the portcullis and chains, so are not necessarily confined to the customs unit. The portcullis and chains on the shellguard on your sword would keenly represent the Tower warders as they indeed were in charge of prisoners entering through 'London Gate', the portcullis seen.

Hamburger Rogers were as noted outfitters located in Covent Garden, and I have seen thier etched panel on officers swords of c. 1860's-80's.

I hope this will help a little, and thank you for your candor in noting that this will be an item for sale in the future. It is a most interesting piece and I am glad we had a chance to discuss it here first. I have, as noted, it seems seen something like this at some point in a reference book, but cannot recall ever seeing one offered or discussed, as there cannot have been any significant volume of them.

All very best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 16th October 2009, 09:06 PM

Hi,
The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

kahnjar1 · 16th October 2009, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norm for explaining the difference in the crown shape. The style of crown varies, and has varied thru the ages depending on the Monarch on the throne at the time. Sorry I was remiss in not saying this originally.
Regards Stuart

celtan · 17th October 2009, 04:49 PM

Thanks Norman, Jim and Stu,

I believe this sword was definitely neither designed nor made for a chicken-dodo outfit: It was relatively well done, an elegant fish-skin grip coupled to nicely etched blade.

While it was obviously not designed to be an effective weapon, it was most certainly an status-symbol, whose manufacture quality reflected well on the pertinent Corps, and whose bearer was quite probably honoured to wear it on Public appearances.

So far, we have three possible venues of research: 1. Westminster Abbey (The WA Chapter, Wardens, Coronations?) 2. UK Customs and Revenue 3. The Tower Of London's Beefeaters.

This is the fun-part of collecting: the sleuthing, the networking, the hunt for data !.

Pleeze, do let me know if any one finds anything of interest, specially our colleagues of British origin, and particularly those connected to London.

Cheers!

Manolo

BTW: Let me clarify that the reason I posted the "selling" caveat is because, some time ago, it was advised to warn potential contributors that their comments could be used to provide info on a sword to be sold. Since I never know when I'll trade or sell one of my babies, I figured it would be safer to simply always add the caveat, as requested.

Atlantia · 17th October 2009, 07:15 PM

I keep thinking bandsmans sword when I look at it... But its better quality than they usually are, almost a naval look to the handle.

Royal yeomanry Westminster Dragoons?

celtan · 18th October 2009, 01:07 AM

Hi Gene,

All of the british musician swords I have seen so far seem to be designed around a rather basic solid brass hilt, coupled to a simple blade.

Then, this could be an exception. The Tudor shield makes me think it could have some Royal ceremonial purpose, or perhaps religious and pertaining to the Abbey.

Another detail: This sword has an interesting end-point, straight edged. I have seen a similar point in German WWI-II replicas of medieval weapons, used for ceremonial purposes.
BTW, I forgot to mention it has an odd-looking hexagonal nut holding the pommel to the tang.

Curiouser, and Curiouser...

kahnjar1 · 18th October 2009, 05:03 AM

If the crown is Tudor, then it is likely to be because the era from which it comes, used the Tudor crown as the norm on Coats of Arms (as explained by Norm). IF you do not consider the sword as of practical use, then maybe my original idea that it could be a DRESS item is closer to the truth.
Suggest perhaps contact with the Historian at British Customs and Excise (I'm sure they will have one) and see what they have to say.
Maybe Gene could do this as he is at least in the right country.
Regards Stuart

Atlantia · 18th October 2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

If the crown is Tudor, then it is likely to be because the era from which it comes, used the Tudor crown as the norm on Coats of Arms (as explained by Norm). IF you do not consider the sword as of practical use, then maybe my original idea that it could be a DRESS item is closer to the truth.
Suggest perhaps contact with the Historian at British Customs and Excise (I'm sure they will have one) and see what they have to say.
Maybe Gene could do this as he is at least in the right country.
Regards Stuart

LOL, I'd be happy to help. Have a looksee and I'll do the same later. If we can find someone to telephone etc, I can do that

I'll grab the pics now in readiness.
Did anyone check into the westminster dragoons?

The crowned portcullis is the symbol of both houses of parliament. With all the 'costume drama' aspects of our democracy, could it be a guard from there?

The only thing that makes me think it might not be completely ceremonial is the plain nature of the blade.
But the small guard reminds me or a court sword.
Hmmm, its a puzzler.

kahnjar1 · 18th October 2009, 06:10 PM

Yes the blade is plain, but it would probably have had a scabbard of some sort.
Stu

Atlantia · 18th October 2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Yes the blade is plain, but it would probably have had a scabbard of some sort.
Stu

Thanks mate

lol

Dmitry · 19th October 2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have checked "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975), but no reference was found, therefore I think it is in one of the earlier books which I do not have with me. Possibly "British Military Swords 1800 to Present Day" by John Wilkinson-Latham (1966) or another one which I cant recall specifically, I think something with similar title, also by another of the Wilkinson's but cannot recall which.
It is possible that it was in the venerable "Sword, Lance & Bayonet" by Ffoulkes and Hopkinson (1938), but these books I have not seen for some time.

This sword is neither in the W-L, nor in the ffoulkes book. In fact, it's in none of my books on the subject of British edged weapons.

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2009, 09:06 PM

Thanks very much for that confirmation Dmitry, now I can rest easy knowing that this was not in those references which are not available.....but, now the maddening thing is, where the heck did I see something like this?!!!
I think that is the worst thing, like having something on the tip of your tongue, but cant remember it.....kinda seems to happen more for me these days!!

Great observations and comments guys (Gene, loved the 'costume drama' note! LOL

. It does seem the neoclassic scene does come in quite a bit in these dress pieces.

Norman, thank you for confirming the Tower warders pattern sword, I had seen that form before but wasnt sure of the periods it entailed.

I agree with Manolo, 'curioser and curioser!' and its great fun to see us as the contingent of 'weapons whisperers' working together as detectives!!

We'll find it.

All the best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 19th October 2009, 09:56 PM

Hi,
This may or may not be helpful! go to, www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/g09.pdf
Regards,
Norman.

kahnjar1 · 19th October 2009, 10:46 PM

Now that IS interesting.
Gene,you now have a contact to send those pics.
Manolo, the plot thickens!
Norm, thanks for that information. I personally did not know that this symbol was so widely used.
Regards Stuart

Dmitry · 20th October 2009, 12:38 AM

Customs can be excluded from the list, imho. From the 1820s onward, the British Customs officers swords followed the Royal Navy and Army patterns, to a degree, and used the same swords as the prison guards for their fighting cutlasses. In any case, they look nothing like this sword.

My feeling, by the look of it, this could be a civil guard/warden's piece.

Atlantia · 20th October 2009, 02:54 PM

Ok Gents,
Well I've made some calls.

Imperial war museum.
No luck, can't seem to get through to the right person so I've left a message.

Tower of London.
Managed to sweet talk them into letting me speak to the curator of armouries who deals with swords. Lovely lady, actualy happened to be looking through a book on yeomanry weapons and uniforms at the time!!
I've sent her the pictures and she will let us know if she can ID it or hopefully point us in the right direction if she cannot.
I contacted her because the Tower has one of the finest collections in the UK and its curators should be familiar with the regalia of London.

She has suggested from my telephone description that if she cannot help, we might try Westminster Palace, or the Kensington Palace court dress collection.

P.S.
A thought has just occured.
The chain on the portcillis is very short (in number of links)
Could this be an identifying factor?

Bryan.H · 20th October 2009, 03:19 PM

Here's one on the oldswords.com database...

The description given is:

"Item Description (Item Id: 103775)

Overall length 26.5 inches, and with a 20.25 inch blade, this is double edged and of shallow diamond section, it is etched with a panel with E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden, the hilt has white metal mounts and the shell guard is cast with a crowned portcullis, the handle is covered with fish-skin and bound with wire, some areas of staining to the blade, otherwise good condition"

No reference to whom this sword was issued though.

Atlantia · 20th October 2009, 03:33 PM

Well, that proves one thing.
This is not a marriage or altered item.

Gotta go out now. Midwife appointment for my Mrs and me

Will report progress if any when I get back. (couple of hours)
In the meantime, does anyone want to try and track down an email address for the other collections suggested?

Gene

Atlantia · 20th October 2009, 07:33 PM

OK, well here are the relevant bits of the back and fourth conversations I've had with our kind curator at The Tower's Armoury today.
I did explain that the sword belonged to a friend of mine who wasn't in the UK, so I'm sure she expects me to be sharing the relevant pieces of the emails:

She at first drew a blank and passed it to a collegue to research.

'My colleague is pursuing it – we think Wallace and Wallace may have had one go through some years ago. Interesting that they are produced in both white and yellow metal. Blank on named firm – nothing in Swords for Sea Service vol II (I’m not entirely surprised; probably a retailer not a maker) or in my small index down here. Most of this sort of information should be at Leeds, if you ring the Library and ask them to look in the de Cosson index (Tel: 0113.220.1832), but probably requires a hike through the later 19th C directories.'

And lastly:

'Kent Arms sales sold one in the 1990s and id it as Customs House one – not sure, but you might ask Customs Museum at Liverpool. The one for sale was white metal too.

Other than that cannot think of many more avenues. Will let you know if aught more turns up.'

Something to digest!

Dmitry · 20th October 2009, 07:58 PM

There is no maker Woods & Son on Bow St, however there's a E. [Edmund] Wood, listed as a sword cutler, working on Bow St ca.1822-1836.
He later moved to 10 Great Wild St in Lincoln's Inn Fields, ca/1837-1840

Jim McDougall · 20th October 2009, 08:24 PM

Gentlemen, I have nothing to add at this point, but cannot resist admiring the fantastic teamwork, and brilliant detective work unfolding here!!!!
You guys are absolutely the best

and this is exactly what our forum is about.
Thank you all so much!

Jim

celtan · 20th October 2009, 09:13 PM

Wow, look all that went on while I was away! Guys, I'm humbled by the results of your joint effort. I'm also ashamed, I plumb forgot to check Old Sword's database.

I guess I deserve to be whipped with a wet noodle...

BTW, I read somewhere that there were no sword makers in Covent Garden, just retailers.

Compared to the sword at Old Swords, mine is almost in relic state. Very little remains of the etched panel, and the fish-skin grip is in poor condition.

Well, it is said that the thrill is in the hunt. Tally Ho, & Kudos to you all !

: )

M

Atlantia · 21st October 2009, 11:46 AM

Hi Manuel,

The Tower have been back in contact this morn:

"Reviewing it all the morning after – can I check – is your friend’s example yellow metal or white (I had it in my head as yellow, but all the other evidence is for white metal examples). I am chary about the Customs service identification – just because it is so different from the other customs’ swords. I’d like a bit more concrete evidence. Also from dim memory of the NMM (I started off there), the customs service is more often allied to the Navy than the Army, but it keeps changing its allegiance throughout the 18th & 19th C – however I am no expert in the field – hence do contact Liverpool. I would try Houses of Parliament too – if only to exclude the option.

I will keep an eye out for more info – although I paddle more along the muddy streams of Tower history nowadays. Please let us know if your researches expose more concrete evidence. Good hunting"

The mounts ARE Bronze aren't they?

celtan · 21st October 2009, 07:18 PM

Hi Guys!

G: I can't say if its bronze, I need to get back home and check. I do remember the hilt's shade is kinda' dark-yellowish, compared to the blade.
OTOH, I remember a hilt of silimlar shade becoming gray, once the oily residues were cleansed away with a solvent.

Below, more pics from a web-based photo depot, just click on the thumbs.:

Atlantia · 22nd October 2009, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys!

G: I can't say if its bronze, I need to get back home and check. I do remember the hilt's shade is kinda' dark-yellowish, compared to the blade.
OTOH, I remember a hilt of silimlar shade becoming gray, once the oily residues were cleansed away with a solvent.

Below, more pics from a web-based photo depot, just click on the thumbs.:

OK, let me know as soon as you're sure, I'll email her and tell her.
They do look bronze in the pics.

Dmitry · 22nd October 2009, 01:38 AM

It's a strange-looking bird. The grip is reminiscent of the Scottish regulation grips ca.1850-1890s, while the cross-guard is of French style. Blade looks like a giant Sheffield dirk blade, with a long ricasso, and rhomboid in cross-section.

Atlantia · 22nd October 2009, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Manuel,

The Tower have been back in contact this morn:

"Reviewing it all the morning after – can I check – is your friend’s example yellow metal or white (I had it in my head as yellow, but all the other evidence is for white metal examples). I am chary about the Customs service identification – just because it is so different from the other customs’ swords. I’d like a bit more concrete evidence. Also from dim memory of the NMM (I started off there), the customs service is more often allied to the Navy than the Army, but it keeps changing its allegiance throughout the 18th & 19th C – however I am no expert in the field – hence do contact Liverpool. I would try Houses of Parliament too – if only to exclude the option.

I will keep an eye out for more info – although I paddle more along the muddy streams of Tower history nowadays. Please let us know if your researches expose more concrete evidence. Good hunting"

The mounts ARE Bronze aren't they?

BTW: I take it that when our friend uses the ab': 'NMM' she refers to the National Maritime Museum.

16th October 2009, 06:31 AM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	English Short Sword Hi Guys, I have had this sword for a long while. Originally bough same as belonging to the "Tower Of London Beefeater" guards, but it doesn't seem to fit the bill, at least to me. The blade was soiled to the point of blackness. Once cleaned, it evidenced faded and worn signs of its original etching. The words "Covent Garden" were eventually seen, very faint, at its ricasso. The half-shell guard's shield seems to correspond to the Portcullis in London's Westminster Abbey. The etching and fish skin grips seem to suggest a post 1850s to early 20th C. manufacture date. Any ideas, beyond what I already know? A coronation guard? An abbey grounds warden? I know there were at least a couple sword retailers at Covent Garden: "Hamburger Rogers & Co" and "J & B PEARSE & CO". (BTW, I hope this is not another of the usual cases where nobody else knows more than I do. ) : ) Best Manolo Caveat: This, as any of any and all of the other blades in my collection, may be sold at some point in time in the future..! Attached Images

16th October 2009, 07:22 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	The badge is the Customs and Excise/Revenue (British) badge, so presumably their Dress?? sword/dagger?? Regards Stuart Attached Images Last edited by kahnjar1; 16th October 2009 at 08:04 AM.

16th October 2009, 09:06 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 16th October 2009 at 09:57 PM.

19th October 2009, 09:06 PM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	Thanks very much for that confirmation Dmitry, now I can rest easy knowing that this was not in those references which are not available.....but, now the maddening thing is, where the heck did I see something like this?!!! I think that is the worst thing, like having something on the tip of your tongue, but cant remember it.....kinda seems to happen more for me these days!! Great observations and comments guys (Gene, loved the 'costume drama' note! LOL. It does seem the neoclassic scene does come in quite a bit in these dress pieces. Norman, thank you for confirming the Tower warders pattern sword, I had seen that form before but wasnt sure of the periods it entailed. I agree with Manolo, 'curioser and curioser!' and its great fun to see us as the contingent of 'weapons whisperers' working together as detectives!! We'll find it. All the best, Jim

20th October 2009, 03:19 PM	#20
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	Identical sword, but still a mystery... Here's one on the oldswords.com database... The description given is: "Item Description (Item Id: 103775) Overall length 26.5 inches, and with a 20.25 inch blade, this is double edged and of shallow diamond section, it is etched with a panel with E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden, the hilt has white metal mounts and the shell guard is cast with a crowned portcullis, the handle is covered with fish-skin and bound with wire, some areas of staining to the blade, otherwise good condition" No reference to whom this sword was issued though. Attached Images

16th October 2009, 12:57 PM	#3
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Thank you Stuart! And yet, the portcullis and chains are the traditional Tudor and Westminster Arms, and in mine, the hat-piece over the Portcullis looks more like a miter than a crown. Even so, your suggestion seems very plausible. Now I need to research that venue. Thanks for again coming to the rescue! Best regards. : ) Manolo

16th October 2009, 06:23 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	Manolo, what an exceptionally unusual item, which I believe may indeed be associated with the 'Beefeaters', who were termed Tower Warders, and I believe accordingly these may be considered one of thier swords. The style of the weapon is very much in accord with particular corps and departmental swords of the Victorian period, noting that Stuarts suggestion is quite plausible as well. It seems of course that I have seen something similar in references on British military swords, although these guards are comprised of retired military men of considerable standing and this is unofficially a yeomanry unit. I have checked "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975), but no reference was found, therefore I think it is in one of the earlier books which I do not have with me. Possibly "British Military Swords 1800 to Present Day" by John Wilkinson-Latham (1966) or another one which I cant recall specifically, I think something with similar title, also by another of the Wilkinson's but cannot recall which. It is possible that it was in the venerable "Sword, Lance & Bayonet" by Ffoulkes and Hopkinson (1938), but these books I have not seen for some time. In any case, as you have noted, the Westminster arms are indeed with the charges of the portcullis and chains, so are not necessarily confined to the customs unit. The portcullis and chains on the shellguard on your sword would keenly represent the Tower warders as they indeed were in charge of prisoners entering through 'London Gate', the portcullis seen. Hamburger Rogers were as noted outfitters located in Covent Garden, and I have seen thier etched panel on officers swords of c. 1860's-80's. I hope this will help a little, and thank you for your candor in noting that this will be an item for sale in the future. It is a most interesting piece and I am glad we had a chance to discuss it here first. I have, as noted, it seems seen something like this at some point in a reference book, but cannot recall ever seeing one offered or discussed, as there cannot have been any significant volume of them. All very best regards, Jim

17th October 2009, 04:49 PM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Thanks Norman, Jim and Stu, I believe this sword was definitely neither designed nor made for a chicken-dodo outfit: It was relatively well done, an elegant fish-skin grip coupled to nicely etched blade. While it was obviously not designed to be an effective weapon, it was most certainly an status-symbol, whose manufacture quality reflected well on the pertinent Corps, and whose bearer was quite probably honoured to wear it on Public appearances. So far, we have three possible venues of research: 1. Westminster Abbey (The WA Chapter, Wardens, Coronations?) 2. UK Customs and Revenue 3. The Tower Of London's Beefeaters. This is the fun-part of collecting: the sleuthing, the networking, the hunt for data !. Pleeze, do let me know if any one finds anything of interest, specially our colleagues of British origin, and particularly those connected to London. Cheers! Manolo BTW: Let me clarify that the reason I posted the "selling" caveat is because, some time ago, it was advised to warn potential contributors that their comments could be used to provide info on a sword to be sold. Since I never know when I'll trade or sell one of my babies, I figured it would be safer to simply always add the caveat, as requested.

17th October 2009, 07:15 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I keep thinking bandsmans sword when I look at it... But its better quality than they usually are, almost a naval look to the handle. Royal yeomanry Westminster Dragoons?

18th October 2009, 01:07 AM	#9
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Gene, All of the british musician swords I have seen so far seem to be designed around a rather basic solid brass hilt, coupled to a simple blade. Then, this could be an exception. The Tudor shield makes me think it could have some Royal ceremonial purpose, or perhaps religious and pertaining to the Abbey. Another detail: This sword has an interesting end-point, straight edged. I have seen a similar point in German WWI-II replicas of medieval weapons, used for ceremonial purposes. BTW, I forgot to mention it has an odd-looking hexagonal nut holding the pommel to the tang. Curiouser, and Curiouser...

18th October 2009, 05:03 AM	#10
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	If the crown is Tudor, then it is likely to be because the era from which it comes, used the Tudor crown as the norm on Coats of Arms (as explained by Norm). IF you do not consider the sword as of practical use, then maybe my original idea that it could be a DRESS item is closer to the truth. Suggest perhaps contact with the Historian at British Customs and Excise (I'm sure they will have one) and see what they have to say. Maybe Gene could do this as he is at least in the right country. Regards Stuart

18th October 2009, 06:10 PM	#12
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Yes the blade is plain, but it would probably have had a scabbard of some sort. Stu

19th October 2009, 09:56 PM	#16
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, This may or may not be helpful! go to, www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/g09.pdf Regards, Norman.

19th October 2009, 10:46 PM	#17
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Now that IS interesting. Gene,you now have a contact to send those pics. Manolo, the plot thickens! Norm, thanks for that information. I personally did not know that this symbol was so widely used. Regards Stuart

20th October 2009, 12:38 AM	#18
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Customs can be excluded from the list, imho. From the 1820s onward, the British Customs officers swords followed the Royal Navy and Army patterns, to a degree, and used the same swords as the prison guards for their fighting cutlasses. In any case, they look nothing like this sword. My feeling, by the look of it, this could be a civil guard/warden's piece.

20th October 2009, 02:54 PM	#19
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Ok Gents, Well I've made some calls. Imperial war museum. No luck, can't seem to get through to the right person so I've left a message. Tower of London. Managed to sweet talk them into letting me speak to the curator of armouries who deals with swords. Lovely lady, actualy happened to be looking through a book on yeomanry weapons and uniforms at the time!! I've sent her the pictures and she will let us know if she can ID it or hopefully point us in the right direction if she cannot. I contacted her because the Tower has one of the finest collections in the UK and its curators should be familiar with the regalia of London. She has suggested from my telephone description that if she cannot help, we might try Westminster Palace, or the Kensington Palace court dress collection. P.S. A thought has just occured. The chain on the portcillis is very short (in number of links) Could this be an identifying factor?

20th October 2009, 03:33 PM	#21
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well, that proves one thing. This is not a marriage or altered item. Gotta go out now. Midwife appointment for my Mrs and me Will report progress if any when I get back. (couple of hours) In the meantime, does anyone want to try and track down an email address for the other collections suggested? Gene

20th October 2009, 07:33 PM	#22
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	OK, well here are the relevant bits of the back and fourth conversations I've had with our kind curator at The Tower's Armoury today. I did explain that the sword belonged to a friend of mine who wasn't in the UK, so I'm sure she expects me to be sharing the relevant pieces of the emails: She at first drew a blank and passed it to a collegue to research. 'My colleague is pursuing it – we think Wallace and Wallace may have had one go through some years ago. Interesting that they are produced in both white and yellow metal. Blank on named firm – nothing in Swords for Sea Service vol II (I’m not entirely surprised; probably a retailer not a maker) or in my small index down here. Most of this sort of information should be at Leeds, if you ring the Library and ask them to look in the de Cosson index (Tel: 0113.220.1832), but probably requires a hike through the later 19th C directories.' And lastly: 'Kent Arms sales sold one in the 1990s and id it as Customs House one – not sure, but you might ask Customs Museum at Liverpool. The one for sale was white metal too. Other than that cannot think of many more avenues. Will let you know if aught more turns up.' Something to digest!

20th October 2009, 07:58 PM	#23
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	There is no maker Woods & Son on Bow St, however there's a E. [Edmund] Wood, listed as a sword cutler, working on Bow St ca.1822-1836. He later moved to 10 Great Wild St in Lincoln's Inn Fields, ca/1837-1840

20th October 2009, 08:24 PM	#24
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	Gentlemen, I have nothing to add at this point, but cannot resist admiring the fantastic teamwork, and brilliant detective work unfolding here!!!! You guys are absolutely the best and this is exactly what our forum is about. Thank you all so much! Jim

20th October 2009, 09:13 PM	#25
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Wow, look all that went on while I was away! Guys, I'm humbled by the results of your joint effort. I'm also ashamed, I plumb forgot to check Old Sword's database. I guess I deserve to be whipped with a wet noodle... BTW, I read somewhere that there were no sword makers in Covent Garden, just retailers. Compared to the sword at Old Swords, mine is almost in relic state. Very little remains of the etched panel, and the fish-skin grip is in poor condition. Well, it is said that the thrill is in the hunt. Tally Ho, & Kudos to you all ! : ) M

21st October 2009, 11:46 AM	#26
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Manuel, The Tower have been back in contact this morn: "Reviewing it all the morning after – can I check – is your friend’s example yellow metal or white (I had it in my head as yellow, but all the other evidence is for white metal examples). I am chary about the Customs service identification – just because it is so different from the other customs’ swords. I’d like a bit more concrete evidence. Also from dim memory of the NMM (I started off there), the customs service is more often allied to the Navy than the Army, but it keeps changing its allegiance throughout the 18th & 19th C – however I am no expert in the field – hence do contact Liverpool. I would try Houses of Parliament too – if only to exclude the option. I will keep an eye out for more info – although I paddle more along the muddy streams of Tower history nowadays. Please let us know if your researches expose more concrete evidence. Good hunting" The mounts ARE Bronze aren't they?

21st October 2009, 07:18 PM	#27
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Guys! G: I can't say if its bronze, I need to get back home and check. I do remember the hilt's shade is kinda' dark-yellowish, compared to the blade. OTOH, I remember a hilt of silimlar shade becoming gray, once the oily residues were cleansed away with a solvent. Below, more pics from a web-based photo depot, just click on the thumbs.:

22nd October 2009, 01:38 AM	#29
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	It's a strange-looking bird. The grip is reminiscent of the Scottish regulation grips ca.1850-1890s, while the cross-guard is of French style. Blade looks like a giant Sheffield dirk blade, with a long ricasso, and rhomboid in cross-section.