Jambiya, Amber hilt, Before & After a Little Restoration

derek · 14th July 2005, 04:59 PM

I got this jambiya recently and saw several things about that bugged me. First, it looks like an amber hilt, but I'm open to comments on this. It doesn't melt at a hot needle, when it breaks it behaves a bit like glass, but it can be filed and smoothed. It has been broken and repaired.

Anyway, as you can see the "nicer" fittings on the grip are facing the back side when it's in the sheath. the dagger looked arabian peninsula to me, but the scabbard looks very Indian. In fact, it's much like a kukri sheath in construction, design, decoration, etc. So, my first thought was that the scabbard was matched to it after the fact. But it fits like an absolute glove, so I'm just not sure.

Then I started to think that maybe when the repair was done the person reversed the silver floral-looking studs without realizing it. The thin, lower-quality coin-like studs were added when the repair was done, I believe.

I decided to tackle it as a project. I worked all the silver loose and pulled the broken amber off, removed the blade, and wiped out all the gunk.

Then mixed up some orange acrylic paint into some epoxy (thanks Tom for that idea on a previous project). I put the blade back in, slide the silver stud and pin back through the right way (there is a hole in the blade tang for it to pass through), added some epoxy, place the broken piece back over and into place as perfect as possible, and let it set. then I replaced the rest of the fittings and polished up a few rough spots. It looks better and the repair is definitely stronger now. I still can't decide the origins of this one though.

Any thoughts?

I decided t

derek · 14th July 2005, 05:01 PM

These are the "after" pics:

Jens Nordlunde · 14th July 2005, 05:49 PM

Hi Derek,

Nice jambiya, and nice work you have don't, but why don't you think it can't be from SW coast of Indian?

Jens

derek · 14th July 2005, 05:56 PM

Hi Jens,
Thanks.
It certainly could be, I just haven't seen amber grip examples that weren't arabian peninsula before. You think it's all Indian then?
-d

Rick · 14th July 2005, 07:11 PM

Artzi's got something very similar in his new listings which he lists as Yemeni .
I wonder if the scabbard toe may be a more recent addition ?

derek · 14th July 2005, 07:36 PM

Hi Rick,
Good one pointing that out. I feel fairly certain about the jambiya itself being arabian, esp. with Artzi's comparable example.
However, the scabbard is quite different. The pattern in the leather, the toe (which may have been added later), the leather flap on the back with the single nail tacking it in place are classic features of many Indian kukri scabbards.

Maybe it was dumb luck that the owner found a scabbard that exactly matched?

-d

Andrew · 14th July 2005, 07:48 PM

Derek, here's a good site that has some tips on identifying amber:

http://www.emporia.edu/earthsci/amber/ident.htm

derek · 14th July 2005, 08:15 PM

Man, I'm not sure it's amber. The usual smell test is impossible. The whole thing smells like it spent the last 75 years sitting in my great grandmother's attic.

The needle did not melt it, so it isn't standard plastic. but it didn't crack or chip either. When you scrape it, it powders, which is consistent with amber. I'm going to burn one of the shards later and take a big whiff. Is it illegal to huff amber?

Ian · 14th July 2005, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

Man, I'm not sure it's amber. The usual smell test is impossible. The whole thing smells like it spent the last 75 years sitting in my great grandmother's attic.

Derek:

If you mean that it smells like moth balls, then that could be the camphor smell associated with celluloid, a synthetic resin used a lot 100+ years ago. In any case, amber would not smell like moth balls.

Ian.

derek · 14th July 2005, 08:45 PM

Ian,

I think it's celluloid. I've smelled real amber, and though this looks a lot like it, I just don't think it is. It has been in a smoker's home as well, but even with all the smells mixing together you're right about the moth ball odor.

Thanks for the help.

-d

derek · 14th July 2005, 09:45 PM

Ian,

I decided to drop those shards into salty water as described in the amber test page. One is about 1/2 inch by 1/4 inch. Big enough to sink. The other is slightly smaller. I even pushed them to the bottom of the cup. They sat there - until the salt dissolved completely. Then they both popped back to the top! So now I really don't know.

Jens Nordlunde · 14th July 2005, 10:45 PM

Hi Derek,

My knowledge about amber it very little, although amber in this sizes like these is rare, and my knowledge about fake amber is even smaller, so I can’t help you out here, but to me the thing as a whole looks Indian. Although I must also say that it could be Arabian. Interesting knife.

Rick · 14th July 2005, 11:41 PM

I'm having a hard time believing that this hilt material is amber in any form . I think we have all seen numerous examples of this type of hilt and from what I read from the links provided it just doesn't make sense that weapons hilted from this material (if amber) can sell for such a low price on the open market .
If this stuff really is amber (even reconstituted) I would expect to see color variations but all I have seen is the same general color and opaqueness in every example . Large chunk amber is quite expensive and molding bits and pieces seems to be a fairly complicated process which would IMO require a much higher price as a material .

Amber chunks :
http://www.ambericawest.com/chunks.html

Maybe it is this stuff which could be manufactured at a fairly simple level of technology :
http://www.ambericawest.com/make_amber.html

Andrew · 15th July 2005, 01:48 AM

Could this be bakelite?

http://www.deco-echoes.com/bakelite.html

derek · 15th July 2005, 01:52 AM

Hi Rick,

I'm doubting it too, but if the example Artzi lists is in fact amber - I note the term amber like is very deliberately used - then this looks identical. I totally defer to others on this and I suspect you are right. Could be the floating piece is a fluke due to the small size of the sample.

Is the amber in the links you included the "only kind" of amber? This stuff certainly looks nothing like it.

BTW, I didn't mention what I paid but it was in fact pretty cheap! Having said, I just got a PAIR of ivory handled kukris for $80! It can happen...

Rick · 15th July 2005, 04:46 AM

Nice score Derek !
Too damn nice , grrrrrrrr grumble .

There is yet another 'amber' hilted jambiya just like yours and Artzi's currently being offered . Doesn't Aurangzeb have one of these too ?

The one thing these hilts have in common is a consistancy of color and for a natural material like amber this strikes me as very un-natural .
Maybe these hilts are being referred to as amber for their color and for lack of knowledge of what they really are made from .
This is probably a silly question but have you tapped the hilt against your teeth ? Could it possibly be some kind of stone ?

derek · 15th July 2005, 07:10 AM

Thanks, Rick. I couldn't believe it, actually. I assumed they would be bone. I'm just trying to get lucky more than I get burned

I'm pretty convinced its celluloid, but I wouldn't rule out anything, including bakelite.

RobT · 16th July 2005, 05:32 AM

If I'm not mistaken celluloid is made up of layers of celluloid impregnated substrate. If that is correct, it would be unlikely to fracture as cleanly as your dagger hilt did. Bakelite however is a sort of proto plastic and fractures much the same as plastic. I would bet your hilt, if not a natural material, is bakelite. A cane collector (or better yet, a bakelite jewelry dealer) may be able to itentify the hilt material. There are usually many bakelite jewelry dealers at large antique shows. Both celluloid and bakelite are still being made. I have been told that celluloid is subject to explode if given a sharp blow and that's why celluloid billard balls were replaced by bakelite. The form of celluloid called French (or faux) ivory looks very much like ivory.
Sincerely,
RobT

derek · 16th July 2005, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

I have been told that celluloid is subject to explode if given a sharp blow and that's why celluloid billard balls were replaced by bakelite.

COOL, I think they should be re-introduced into billiards immediately. And maybe golf too.......

Threetemper · 17th July 2005, 01:51 AM

Celluloid is extremly flammable . A small piece will go up like the blazes. So if you test this way do not do it next to the grip. That scabbard was definitely made by a sarki(Nepalese or Indian maker).

Berkley · 17th July 2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

That scabbard was definitely made by a sarki(Nepalese or Indian maker).

I would go so far as to hazard the opinion (worth exactly what you paid for it

) that the incised pattern on the scabbard is definitely Indian, not Nepalese.

14th July 2005, 04:59 PM	#1
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Jambiya, Amber hilt, Before & After a Little Restoration I got this jambiya recently and saw several things about that bugged me. First, it looks like an amber hilt, but I'm open to comments on this. It doesn't melt at a hot needle, when it breaks it behaves a bit like glass, but it can be filed and smoothed. It has been broken and repaired. Anyway, as you can see the "nicer" fittings on the grip are facing the back side when it's in the sheath. the dagger looked arabian peninsula to me, but the scabbard looks very Indian. In fact, it's much like a kukri sheath in construction, design, decoration, etc. So, my first thought was that the scabbard was matched to it after the fact. But it fits like an absolute glove, so I'm just not sure. Then I started to think that maybe when the repair was done the person reversed the silver floral-looking studs without realizing it. The thin, lower-quality coin-like studs were added when the repair was done, I believe. I decided to tackle it as a project. I worked all the silver loose and pulled the broken amber off, removed the blade, and wiped out all the gunk. Then mixed up some orange acrylic paint into some epoxy (thanks Tom for that idea on a previous project). I put the blade back in, slide the silver stud and pin back through the right way (there is a hole in the blade tang for it to pass through), added some epoxy, place the broken piece back over and into place as perfect as possible, and let it set. then I replaced the rest of the fittings and polished up a few rough spots. It looks better and the repair is definitely stronger now. I still can't decide the origins of this one though. Any thoughts? I decided t Attached Images

14th July 2005, 05:01 PM	#2
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	These are the "after" pics: Attached Images

14th July 2005, 09:45 PM	#11
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Well, now I really don't know Ian, I decided to drop those shards into salty water as described in the amber test page. One is about 1/2 inch by 1/4 inch. Big enough to sink. The other is slightly smaller. I even pushed them to the bottom of the cup. They sat there - until the salt dissolved completely. Then they both popped back to the top! So now I really don't know.

14th July 2005, 11:41 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Really Doubtful I'm having a hard time believing that this hilt material is amber in any form . I think we have all seen numerous examples of this type of hilt and from what I read from the links provided it just doesn't make sense that weapons hilted from this material (if amber) can sell for such a low price on the open market . If this stuff really is amber (even reconstituted) I would expect to see color variations but all I have seen is the same general color and opaqueness in every example . Large chunk amber is quite expensive and molding bits and pieces seems to be a fairly complicated process which would IMO require a much higher price as a material . Amber chunks : http://www.ambericawest.com/chunks.html Maybe it is this stuff which could be manufactured at a fairly simple level of technology : http://www.ambericawest.com/make_amber.html

15th July 2005, 04:46 AM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Some Guys Have All the Luck Nice score Derek ! Too damn nice , grrrrrrrr grumble . There is yet another 'amber' hilted jambiya just like yours and Artzi's currently being offered . Doesn't Aurangzeb have one of these too ? The one thing these hilts have in common is a consistancy of color and for a natural material like amber this strikes me as very un-natural . Maybe these hilts are being referred to as amber for their color and for lack of knowledge of what they really are made from . This is probably a silly question but have you tapped the hilt against your teeth ? Could it possibly be some kind of stone ?

14th July 2005, 05:49 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Derek, Nice jambiya, and nice work you have don't, but why don't you think it can't be from SW coast of Indian? Jens

14th July 2005, 05:56 PM	#4
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi Jens, Thanks. It certainly could be, I just haven't seen amber grip examples that weren't arabian peninsula before. You think it's all Indian then? -d

14th July 2005, 07:11 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Artzi's got something very similar in his new listings which he lists as Yemeni . I wonder if the scabbard toe may be a more recent addition ?

14th July 2005, 07:36 PM	#6
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi Rick, Good one pointing that out. I feel fairly certain about the jambiya itself being arabian, esp. with Artzi's comparable example. However, the scabbard is quite different. The pattern in the leather, the toe (which may have been added later), the leather flap on the back with the single nail tacking it in place are classic features of many Indian kukri scabbards. Maybe it was dumb luck that the owner found a scabbard that exactly matched? -d

14th July 2005, 07:48 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Derek, here's a good site that has some tips on identifying amber: http://www.emporia.edu/earthsci/amber/ident.htm

14th July 2005, 08:15 PM	#8
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Man, I'm not sure it's amber. The usual smell test is impossible. The whole thing smells like it spent the last 75 years sitting in my great grandmother's attic. The needle did not melt it, so it isn't standard plastic. but it didn't crack or chip either. When you scrape it, it powders, which is consistent with amber. I'm going to burn one of the shards later and take a big whiff. Is it illegal to huff amber?

14th July 2005, 08:45 PM	#10
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Ian, I think it's celluloid. I've smelled real amber, and though this looks a lot like it, I just don't think it is. It has been in a smoker's home as well, but even with all the smells mixing together you're right about the moth ball odor. Thanks for the help. -d

14th July 2005, 10:45 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Derek, My knowledge about amber it very little, although amber in this sizes like these is rare, and my knowledge about fake amber is even smaller, so I can’t help you out here, but to me the thing as a whole looks Indian. Although I must also say that it could be Arabian. Interesting knife.

15th July 2005, 01:48 AM	#14
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Could this be bakelite? http://www.deco-echoes.com/bakelite.html

15th July 2005, 01:52 AM	#15
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi Rick, I'm doubting it too, but if the example Artzi lists is in fact amber - I note the term amber like is very deliberately used - then this looks identical. I totally defer to others on this and I suspect you are right. Could be the floating piece is a fluke due to the small size of the sample. Is the amber in the links you included the "only kind" of amber? This stuff certainly looks nothing like it. BTW, I didn't mention what I paid but it was in fact pretty cheap! Having said, I just got a PAIR of ivory handled kukris for $80! It can happen...

15th July 2005, 07:10 AM	#17
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Thanks, Rick. I couldn't believe it, actually. I assumed they would be bone. I'm just trying to get lucky more than I get burned I'm pretty convinced its celluloid, but I wouldn't rule out anything, including bakelite.

16th July 2005, 05:32 AM	#18
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 488	celluloid or bakelite If I'm not mistaken celluloid is made up of layers of celluloid impregnated substrate. If that is correct, it would be unlikely to fracture as cleanly as your dagger hilt did. Bakelite however is a sort of proto plastic and fractures much the same as plastic. I would bet your hilt, if not a natural material, is bakelite. A cane collector (or better yet, a bakelite jewelry dealer) may be able to itentify the hilt material. There are usually many bakelite jewelry dealers at large antique shows. Both celluloid and bakelite are still being made. I have been told that celluloid is subject to explode if given a sharp blow and that's why celluloid billard balls were replaced by bakelite. The form of celluloid called French (or faux) ivory looks very much like ivory. Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 16th July 2005 at 05:36 AM. Reason: added info

17th July 2005, 01:51 AM	#20
Threetemper Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Oakhurst,NJ Posts: 14	flame on Celluloid is extremly flammable . A small piece will go up like the blazes. So if you test this way do not do it next to the grip. That scabbard was definitely made by a sarki(Nepalese or Indian maker).