Schiavona - The one that got away

[werecow]

Hi there,

I imagine any collector who frequents auctions and does not have unlimited funds has seen some beautiful swords be sold of to a higher bidder, appearing to be just out of reach. So I wanted to make a thread where we can mourn the loss of these beautiful swords and remember them fondly! Or if such a thread already exists please point me to it, as I am a new poster here (though lurking for a while now). }|)

I'm posting this on the European board because mine happens to be European, but any sword is welcome.

My biggest regret was this schiavona that I was bidding on last September. It was sold with a haudegen or walloon sword, but my focus was the schiavona. This isn't the fanciest example I've ever come across or the most well-preserved, but something about this sword in particular appeals to me and I am still sad I didn't manage to get it. The basket looks like it wants to cradle my hand and I like the chiseled highlights. The broad blade looks like it has a high degree of distal taper and the broad, deep looking fuller gives it a kind of brutal-yet-elegant look. I am very curious as to how it feels in the hand. There are some modest engravings on the blade that give it just a bit extra. The pommel has some nice little details and the brass gives the whole thing a fun little highlight.

I have only a modest budget and I decided to bid far more than I usually do, for my 40th birthday. Sadly, not enough, as I was only the second highest bidder even after going a fair bit outside my comfort zone - though I bought two other swords for the money I set aside that I'm now quite fond of (one of them from here!).

I will forever be chasing schiavonas (schiavonae?) that have this kind of broad fullered blade, cat's head pommel and hilt.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by werecow

Hi there,

I will forever be chasing schiavonas (schiavonae?) that have this kind of broad fullered blade, cat's head pommel and hilt.

The plural is schiavone.
The one in the image you attached is a nice one. These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing, they were workaday weapons made for mercenary soldiers. Condition is not all that bad, I've seen worse. Sorry you missed it! Fortunately these aren't all that rare, perhaps next time your luck will land you one with its period scabbard!

The hilt basket on this one is an early version of what is classified as Oakeshott Type 2 in the reference literature, appearing at the opening of the 17th cent. and remaining popular for some decades thereafter. The broad blade, with single deep fuller and negligible taper in its width, is of a form reminiscent of an early style classified by most modern scholars as Oakeshott Type XIIIb which is much-depicted in later medieval art .

These swords have a nice balance, the basket incorporates a thumb ring which ensures a firm grasp in the hand.

[ulfberth]

I agree with Philip "These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing" I like this one very much and to me its a 17th c one. Most schiavona's on the market are 18thc not bad, but early ones like this one are more rare and especialy the ones with the wider branches like this one has.
In my 45 years of collecting I only once had one like it and would be prepared to go deep in my purse to buy that one back.
I prefer the early one above the more fancy and the later model are usualy more fancy, the simpler the older.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

I agree with Philip "These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing"

Very true. To me swords should at least look like they were made with combat in mind. I often find that the ones I like the most are the ones with modest decorations rather than the ones that are extremely elaborate (although there are always exceptions).

These swords have a nice balance, the basket incorporates a thumb ring which ensures a firm grasp in the hand.

As a relatively new collector I've yet to handle a sword with a thumb ring, but I'm currently saving up for a Walloon sword (of the Amsterdam city guard type, if I can find one I can afford). The rings have always struck me as slightly odd and a bit anomalous somehow but maybe that's because I don't have a good handle yet on how Walloon hilts and Schiavone* developed. Did thumb rings develop from the nagel on Messers, by any chance?

* Grazie for the correction Philip.

[toaster5sqn]

Werecow, thumbrings are on the left, the nagel was on the right so no connection in their development. I do know that thumbrings were also common on Polish sabres and English mortuary hilts but which sword had them first I don't know.

Robert

[ariel]

There are no ”buts” about this schiavona: it is perfect. Nothing fancy about it, just a pure muscular example of an old fighting sword in practically perfect shape. There are some of us on the Forum who are almost as old as this schiavona, and we all are in a worse shape and as to “fighting”, let’s not touch the subject…

I am sorry you missed it, but you are young and will still meet the schiavona of your dreams.

And thanks for the new topic: all of us have bags of similar sorrows:-((

[Philip]

Originally Posted by werecow

The rings have always struck me as slightly odd and a bit anomalous somehow but maybe that's because I don't have a good handle yet on how Walloon hilts and Schiavone* developed. Did thumb rings develop from the nagel on Messers, by any chance?

.

Thumb rings are found on quite a number of different European sword types. For example, they are found on Styrian / Bellunese riding-sword hilts ca 1560-70, and also on Polish sabers from the 16th through 18th cent. I don't know if there is any connection between this feature on the Messer and the schiavona.

Attached here is a dorsal view of a schiavona hilt, just below the axis of the grip you can see the thumb ring incorporated into the basket. These, like Polish sabers, are not unduly heavy swords but having the right thumb hooked on the ring contributes a lot to control and the ability to secure the weapon during use, without resorting to a wrist-lanyard.

[Philip]

Here are additional pics of the same schiavona. Note that the diagonal border of the basket, on the obverse side, is composed of two parallel bars, with "ladder rungs" in between them. This is the mark of a Type 2 hilt. The later and more ornate variants, Types 2a and 2b, have two and three rows of these rungs or steps, respectively, forming the outer border of the basket.

The well-preserved scabbard on this example has the iconic sailor's knot braided into the seam of the leather, representing the Republic of Venice's symbolic marriage to the sea.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Philip

The well-preserved scabbard on this example has the iconic sailor's knot braided into the seam of the leather, representing the Republic of Venice's symbolic marriage to the sea.

This was new to me. Great to learn something new! Thanks for posting. Beautiful scabbard. Do you think schiavonas were used at sea or was the sailor knot just symbolic?

Does anyone know the meaning of the circular spheres on the pommel in the specimen posted above by werecow?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

. Do you think schiavonas were used at sea or was the sailor knot just symbolic?

I am trying to research that point myself. Venice, essentially a city-state, was primarily a maritime power, defending its far flung network of island and coastal trading centers. But at various times the Republic also controlled land areas in Lombardy, northeast Italia, coastal Croatia, and parts of mainland Greece. The situation is further complicated by the fact that the Republic's heyday coincided with the high period of mercenary warfare in Europe, and since its limited local landholdings made a supply of conscripts problematic, fighting men were recruited in significant numbers from elsewhere, especially Dalmatians and Stradioti from the Adriatic regions.

Venice's preoccupation with maritime affairs is exemplified by the annual ceremony during which the Doge and his court cruised on the massive gilded barge "Bucintoro" into open waters and threw a gold ring to the waves, to renew the Republic's vows of marriage to the sea. And for a long time, its main rival in Italy was Genoa, its seafaring counterpart on the other side of the peninsula.

I would tend to think that from a tactical perspective, a shorter weapon such as the storta , a broad-bladed cutlass or falchion, might be handier aboard the cramped decks of a galley.

[Victrix]

As schiavona means Slav then presumably these swords were predominantly from the Slavs living around the Adriatic in Venice, Dalmatia, and Montenegro. There were some Slav stradioti but I understand most were Greek and Albanian. At some times Venice controlled much of Dalmatia and also employed Dalmatian mercenaries. It seems schiavonas were typically Dalmatian (and Istrian?) and not used much in the hinterlands of Bosnia and Croatia/Hungary. If not donned and used on ships, the schiavonas must have been used at least to defend the many walled cities on the coast like Dubrovnik (Ragusa), Split (Spalato), Zadar (Zara), etc.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... Does anyone know the meaning of the circular spheres on the pommel in the specimen posted above by werecow?

I wouldn't know the meaning but, i (think i) discern the same detail in a high end example (gold embeded) in the 'Spanish style' of the XVII century (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt).
Note that, although the general assumption that the figure often seen in pommels is a cat's (or wolf's) head, there are those who take it as more probable that it is a more or less stylised lion, with the relation of Venice with its symbol of power, the lion of Saint Marcus.
(Sorry for the poor pictures )


.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

Werecow, thumbrings are on the left, the nagel was on the right so no connection in their development. I do know that thumbrings were also common on Polish sabres and English mortuary hilts but which sword had them first I don't know.

Robert

D'oh! I've always had trouble telling my left from my right. }|:oP

Originally Posted by Philip

Thumb rings are found on quite a number of different European sword types. For example, they are found on Styrian / Bellunese riding-sword hilts ca 1560-70, and also on Polish sabers from the 16th through 18th cent. I don't know if there is any connection between this feature on the Messer and the schiavona.

Now that you guys mention it I've also seen them on some Sinclair hilts / dussacks, e.g.:



I guess they are less anomalous than I thought.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Note that, although the general assumption that the figure often seen in pommels is a cat's (or wolf's) head, there are those who take it as more probable that it is a more or less stylised lion, with the relation of Venice with its symbol of power, the lion of Saint Marcus.
(Sorry for the poor pictures )


.

Good point, Nando. Yes, even the Italian arms literature refers to "testa di gatto". Some see a stylized pussycat profile, others envision the Lion of St Mark. There is a certain zoological consistency, at least.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

As schiavona means Slav then presumably these swords were predominantly from the Slavs living around the Adriatic in Venice, Dalmatia, and Montenegro. There were some Slav stradioti but I understand most were Greek and Albanian. At some times Venice controlled much of Dalmatia and also employed Dalmatian mercenaries. It seems schiavonas were typically Dalmatian (and Istrian?) and not used much in the hinterlands of Bosnia and Croatia/Hungary. If not donned and used on ships, the schiavonas must have been used at least to defend the many walled cities on the coast like Dubrovnik (Ragusa), Split (Spalato), Zadar (Zara), etc.

It would be logical to assume that the style of weaponry followed the custom of the mercenaries using it. Yes, the Stradioti were mostly Greek and Albanian, and with these troops one would expect the "eared" hilted swords with sharply tapering blades to be the norm (three examples in the Bargello shown as fig. 33 in Ada Brunn Hoffmeyer's article "From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier".

And it's true that not all Venetian military action was naval, since the Republic occupied and ruled fortified towns and harbors throughout the eastern Mediterranean as well, both on mainland and island territory. A sword like the schiavona would have been quite appropriate in defense of these positions. The extent of their use, or that of any other type of sword, was probably dictated by the ethnic or geographic origin of the troops involved in the area in question.

The question of the schiavona's use throughout the inland part of Croatia or Hungary is an interesting one. Hungary had great influence and control over parts of Croatia during the late Middle Ages. It's interesting to look at the schiavona's predecessor, the open-hilted broadsword with horizontal S guard and squarish pommel (sometimes with "proto-ears" on the upper corners), called in Italian arms literature la spada alla schiavonesca. This "sword in Slavonic style" exists in great numbers in the Armory of the Palazzo Ducale in Venice, and has strong affinities in form to the typical medieval Hungarian sword. The square pommels, many with central bosses and some with "earlets" , were also carried over into the numerous variations of hilts on the Venetian spade da fante or foot-soldiers' swords, of which numerous examples, dating from the late 15th- beginning 16th cent., are also to be found in the Doge's Armory.

The scabbard of the typical schiavona also has a rather Hungarian flavor, with the reinforcing straps on each side on its lower third, secured with numerous bands along their length. You also find this treatment on Polish hussar saber scabbards, the weapon having a point of common origin in Hungary.

Whether these influences flowed the other way, such as the basket hilted schiavona achieving any degree of popularity in Hungary, is something that can be looked into. All I can say at this point is that having visited a number of arms collections in Hungarian museums, schiavone were not in evidence.
.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't know the meaning but, i (think i) discern the same detail in a high end example (gold embeded) in the 'Spanish style' of the XVII century (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt).
Note that, although the general assumption that the figure often seen in pommels is a cat's (or wolf's) head, there are those who take it as more probable that it is a more or less stylised lion, with the relation of Venice with its symbol of power, the lion of Saint Marcus.
(Sorry for the poor pictures ).

Yes good point. The winged lion was the symbol of St.Mark and also the symbol of Venice who had him as a patron saint. Incidentally the coat of arms of Dalmatia also has three crowned lions.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Philip

It would be logical to assume that the style of weaponry followed the custom of the mercenaries using it. Yes, the Stradioti were mostly Greek and Albanian, and with these troops one would expect the "eared" hilted swords with sharply tapering blades to be the norm (three examples in the Bargello shown as fig. 33 in Ada Brunn Hoffmeyer's article "From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier".

And it's true that not all Venetian military action was naval, since the Republic occupied and ruled fortified towns and harbors throughout the eastern Mediterranean as well, both on mainland and island territory. A sword like the schiavona would have been quite appropriate in defense of these positions. The extent of their use, or that of any other type of sword, was probably dictated by the ethnic or geographic origin of the troops involved in the area in question.

The question of the schiavona's use throughout the inland part of Croatia or Hungary is an interesting one. Hungary had great influence and control over parts of Croatia during the late Middle Ages. It's interesting to look at the schiavona's predecessor, the open-hilted broadsword with horizontal S guard and squarish pommel (sometimes with "proto-ears" on the upper corners), called in Italian arms literature la spada alla schiavonesca. This "sword in Slavonic style" exists in great numbers in the Armory of the Palazzo Ducale in Venice, and has strong affinities in form to the typical medieval Hungarian sword. The square pommels, many with central bosses and some with "earlets" , were also carried over into the numerous variations of hilts on the Venetian spade da fante or foot-soldiers' swords, of which numerous examples, dating from the late 15th- beginning 16th cent., are also to be found in the Doge's Armory.

The scabbard of the typical schiavona also has a rather Hungarian flavor, with the reinforcing straps on each side on its lower third, secured with numerous bands along their length. You also find this treatment on Polish hussar saber scabbards, the weapon having a point of common origin in Hungary.

Whether these influences flowed the other way, such as the basket hilted schiavona achieving any degree of popularity in Hungary, is something that can be looked into. All I can say at this point is that having visited a number of arms collections in Hungarian museums, schiavone were not in evidence.
.

Philip I think you are right. The square pommel, sometimes with a central boss, is typical Hungarian and you find a lot of examples there. I think most Hungarian swords were produced in Northern Italy near Brescia which explains why this type of pommel is also common in Venice. Pre-WWI Hungary was quite big and included Croatia, Slovakia and parts of what is now Serbia I believe (who were mostly Slavic/Slavonic). Presumably they often used the spada schiavonesca which is the Slavic/Slavonian sword. The schiavona got its pommel from there and probably the scabbard as you pointed out. In my opinion the evidence shows that the schiavona was a Dalmatian sword, and that it was not used in the hinterland of Croatia and Bosnia where the hussar sabre was instead adopted in 17-18thC and the dussägge in 16thC. Curved swords were favoured by cavalry.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

I think most Hungarian swords were produced in Northern Italy near Brescia which explains why this type of pommel is also common in Venice. Pre-WWI Hungary was quite big and included Croatia, Slovakia and parts of what is now Serbia I believe (who were mostly Slavic/Slavonic).

Blade production in Lombardy and Veneto was spread between several important towns with large-scale output, the Venetians who governed the areas exported them widely by means of their mercantile genius. Principal Lombard blade centers were Caino and Bergamo. Belluno, in the Veneto region, was known for distinctive hilts (such as the graceful style seen on rapiers and riding-swords, with ball pommels, wide quillons, and tre ponti swept guards) as well as blades; it seems that the city was a prime supplier of arms for the Republic. I have no doubt that many schiavone as well as other swords originated there. Do you have the book I Grandi Spadai Feltrini e Bellunesi by Michele Vello and Fabrizio Tonin? It's fully bilingual, well researched, and fascinating.

Yes, the influence of Hungary cannot be denied. It seems that Croatia, despite Venetian dominance of the coast, was never fully out of the Hungarian shadow. Geographically, the country is like an upside down L, with the shorter arm pointing east and bordering Hungary. The Balkans can be such a complex region!

Yes, Serbia has a Slavic culture and language. The divide between Serbs and Croatians is mainly religion (Orthodox vs Roman Catholic) and the written language. A friend who has lived part of his life in former Yugoslavia tells me that the spoken languages are very similar, but due to the historical and religious background, one uses Roman and the other Cyrillic letters. Unfortunately this has also had political repercussions that turned out quite nasty during World War II.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

In my opinion the evidence shows that the schiavona was a Dalmatian sword, and that it was not used in the hinterland of Croatia and Bosnia where the hussar sabre was instead adopted in 17-18thC and the dussägge in 16thC. Curved swords were favoured by cavalry.

Victrix, I agree wholeheartedly.

You mention the düssage, another very interesting weapon. I note that this Germanic term seems related to the name tessak, applied to a short bladed and generally curved sword in Poland, Russia, and other eastern countries. Do you also see a structural / functional relationship between it and the north Italian storta / coltellaccio ? Different name but similar in size and proportions.

The appeal of curved blades to horsemen has a functional basis (cutting efficiency for sweeping cuts from the saddle), undoubtedly inspired by the military traditions of forces such as Tatars, Seljuks, Ottomans, and other Eastern peoples.

[Philip]

Here are 3 swords that have a strong resemblance.

Top is a typical medieval Hungarian sword, 15th cent., this example in the Hungarian National Museum, Budapest, published in Vas, Ezüst és Arany by Temesváry Ferenc, 1989, plate 67.

Middle is a sword identified as a schiavonesca and according to a posting on another venue, was found near Slankamen, Serbia and is in the collection of the Historical Museum of Serbia. At this point it may be worthwhile to cite Ewart Oakeshott's comments about place of origin versus place of discovery, in the intro chapter of his book Records of the Medieval Sword.

Bottom is a schiavonesca in my collection. Blade has the typical Venetian cockleburr stamps. Note the blade profile, broad with slight taper and an angular tip as contrasted with the two examples above. There are numerous examples of schiavonesche in the Armory of the Palazzo Ducale which do not vary appreciably from this one.

[midelburgo]

If you have not done it already, go to Venice, to the armoury at the Signoria Palace. You will have enough schiavonas there for a lifetime.
Alternatively you can get this:

Armoury of the Doges palace in Venice

LE SALE D'ARMI IN PALAZZO DUCALE VENEZIA

Franzoi, Umberto

cheaper in Italian IIRC.

[Victrix]

Philip,

Thank you for alerting me to I Grandi Spadai Feltrini e Bellunesi by Michele Vello and Fabrizio Tonin which I will try to acquire. I have tried to source something on Northern Italian arms production in English for some time so it was welcome!

Croatia was in a double monarchy with Hungary which was in a double monarchy with Austria, so it was complicated. That’s why the Austro-Hungarian Empire is so fascinating. People traveled around for work, intermarried etc and it became a fascinating meltingpot of diversity which produced great culture.

After the nationalist revolutions of 1848 there was flirtation with pan-Slavism but I think in the former Yugoslavia they realized that sharing a similar language was less important than sharing a common culture, as the different ethnic groups had developed separately under widely different conditions for centuries. The different religions and alphabets are only parts of it (manifestations of the different cultures). After all, the US and Australia share a similar/same language but have quite different cultures.

Many dussägge were produced in Styria as a peasant weapon to counter the threat of Ottoman invasion. They also found their way to Slovenia and Croatia as a useful infantry close quarter weapon. I don’t think you find too many Storta outside Italy and Dalmatia, but their purpose is similar. There is also the German säbel of course, although the Hungarian sabre seems to have been much favoured in E.Europe.

I don’t find huge differences between the Hungarian broad sword and the spada schiavonesca. Could it be that the latter is simply the Italian name for the former from the Italian point of view? I suppose what’s characteristic for the spada schiavonesca is the S-shaped cross guard whereas the typical Hungarian broad sword often has a straight cross guard (frequently tapering towards the hilt) and a square pommel.

[Victrix]

Here are a couple of items that I bid for in auctions in the past, but got away from me. Sometimes (rarely) I still think of them, but more interested in finding future interesting objects to bid for. Happy week-end everyone!

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Here are a couple of items that I bid for in auctions in the past, but got away from me. Sometimes (rarely) I still think of them, but more interested in finding future interesting objects to bid for. Happy week-end everyone!

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Philip,

Thank you for alerting me to I Grandi Spadai Feltrini e Bellunesi by Michele Vello and Fabrizio Tonin which I will try to acquire. I have tried to source something on Northern Italian arms production in English for some time so it was welcome!

Croatia was in a double monarchy with Hungary which was in a double monarchy with Austria, so it was complicated.

I don’t find huge differences between the Hungarian broad sword and the spada schiavonesca. Could it be that the latter is simply the Italian name for the former from the Italian point of view? I suppose what’s characteristic for the spada schiavonesca is the S-shaped cross guard whereas the typical Hungarian broad sword often has a straight cross guard (frequently tapering towards the hilt) and a square pommel.

I recall finding my copy of Vello / Tonin via the worldwide bookfinder.com search engine, and was directed to Amazon (don't all roads lead to Rome, haha). Apparently it's a self-published, print-on-demand production.

Eastern Europe is fascinating for the prevalence of double and multi monarchies. Poland especially -- Wladzislaw II Jagiello (King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania), Wladzislaw III Warnieczyk ( King of Poland and Hungary, died fighting Turks at Varna), Stefan Bathóry (King of Poland and Hungary, Prince of Transylvania, Duke of Prussia), Zygmunt III Waza (you are no doubt very familar with that case). And so forth.

Regarding Hungarian style broadswords, you have a point. One would think that the Hungarians, at the time they were using these things, had an entirely different name for the type, the earliest surviving examples are out of the Hungarian sphere and that nation is not Slavic. As to the differences, they are indeed small, more stylistic than substantive. Personally, I would call one of these swords schiavonesca if the blade had markings recognizable as north Italian, and if the blade profile was somewhat broad with the distinct angular tip. This blade shape seems to be a common denominator to the large number of swords of this configuration that I saw on display in the Palazzo Ducale.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Philip

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

Some eyecandy for you .

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Some eyecandy for you .

Thank you! As a return favor, here are a couple of images of a hand-and-half sword I used to own (all too briefly). Had to sell it to finance another purchase which was too tempting to pass up. Despite its size, the balance was excellent, you could control it very well with just one hand.

[fernando]

I am not an auction bidder. The sword i am showing here is not one that got away but one i had and did let go.
Someone called this example a proto schiavona.


.

[Philip]

Fernando, this is quite an interesting sword. A friend in Canada has one with the same style of guard, and he calls it a "proto-schiavona" too since its construction is even simpler than the earliest recognizable schiavona hilt, the Oakeshott Type 1. His sword has a cat's head pommel but from its material (bronze) and workmanship (domed center with well-worked beaded deco, contrasting with a very plain hilt), we think it's a later replacement on an older sword.

What I find intriguing about your (former) example is that the pommel is not the Venetian feline at all. It's rather Scottish-looking, more precisely the biconical Type V as shown in Cyril Mazansky's excellent book, British Basket-Hilted Swords (2005) pp 22- 23, 78. Do you recall if there was a small groove on the lower, inverted "cone" of your pommel? Typically, that retained the edge of the basket hilt on those Scottish swords.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

... Do you recall if there was a small groove on the lower, inverted "cone" of your pommel? Typically, that retained the edge of the basket hilt on those Scottish swords.

No Filipe, i don't recall such detail, neither i have pictures taken in that angle; this took place back in 2012.
But i wouldn't discard the possibility that this pommel was a replacement. I tried to recuperate the post (?) where i had the opinion about the 'proto', to check on further possible details but ... no results.