Early 1800's US Sword

Terry K · 3rd August 2016, 09:17 PM

I picked this up a couple of days ago in a trade. I believe it is an Artillery Officer's sabre from 1800-1820. Of course missing scabbard. Has floral design on both sides with kettle type drums, crossed flag and pike with "freedom" capand the U>S> eagl withe motto on the other. Can't make out any markings, but thinking German maker. Has flamming bomb on bottom of cross guard. Your thoughts?
Terry

Hotspur · 5th August 2016, 07:01 AM

A very pretty eagle pommel from the first decade of the 19th century. I have one that is similar with a plain blade marked to Woolley Deakin & Co. Mine has leather over wood for the grip. John Salter of London sold similar eagle pommel swords. Even if it turned out to be a German blade, the bird is Brit ish

A worthwhile book for these is this title http://www.gunandswordcollector.com/..._EA_eagle.html

Without a maker or retailer name on the blade, there isn't a whole lot more that can be said. A flaming bomb motif usually marks a grenadier in Europe and while this is the first I have seen in the counterguard like that on an eagle pommel, I have seen a couple with multiple grenades chased into the gaurd.

IMO, one of the prettier eagles.

Cheers

GC

Hotspur · 5th August 2016, 07:14 AM

Mowbray dismisses these with backstraps as post war 1812 but my Woolley Deakin kind of puts that myth to rest. The floating pommel type sometimes regarded as a Dyer type. It has been so long since I have read the text that I might make a mistake but iirc, Dyer was New England.

I have a couple of other picture files of these with floating pommels. The French Captain's sword in Master&Commander was of this type.

Cheers

GC

Hotspur · 5th August 2016, 07:24 AM

Where oh where is that file. These floating pommel examples seem to vary more, cutler to cutler.

Jim McDougall · 5th August 2016, 09:52 AM

Glen,
I'm glad you came in on this!!! Ive been going mad trying to find info on American eagle hilts, and discovered I don't have Peterson with me, nor some of the Man at Arms articles. As I have said for many years now...you are the boss when it comes to American swords!!!!

In searching through whatever info I could find on line, I did find that it seems most American eagle head officers swords pre 1820s or 30s were produced in England, France or Germany. One note claimed that examples with langets were typically German produced....is that a reasonable axiom?

For some reason this example seemed British to me, I think due to the cross hatch on the bone grips, which reminded me of other British hilts of this time.
I am curious on the eagles, while this one has a smooth head, the others, such as Ketland, have pronounced flat heads but I cannot think of the term.
It seems this has been rather appointed the 'American' form of eagle, sometimes called 'screaming eagle' ?

Just seemed like a good opportunity to detail some notes on American eagle head swords.

Hotspur · 5th August 2016, 06:26 PM

I would be careful with the langet attribution, as many past the 1820s were marked and cutlered on both sides of the channel. The Mowbray book still the gold standard for the early swords but there are some tdbits in Hartzler's Lattimer Collection book. Flayderman and the younger Mowbray publishing the Medicus Collection offers a very comprehensive (while sparse reading) flash card deck.

The early use of eagles with langets actually goes (in part} to Le Page and others in France.

Eagle types almost infinite. Below an older link to my eagle mania. Some misplaced on purpose, others simply misfiled, a general image dump of mine up to a few years ago. My current drive still updated almost daily, so this shared folder just a start

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...mM&usp=sharing

Just a for instance, one will find Dyer types in both the Salter folder and a separate subfolder under another category. Similarly, I have Bates and Bolton together. I may never publish more than these simple posts but I pretty much still live and breath eagle pommels. I don't think I'll ever have all the knowledge.

With the variety so, so diverse, it is much easier to discuss a paticular variety than speaking in broad terms.

Cheers

GC

Terry K · 7th August 2016, 05:29 AM

Hotspur,
Thanks you so much for answering my inquiry. You have given me a wealth of info. I tried to find it in my American Eagle Head Swords book from the Medicus collection. Some were close but no exact, I know that was a pipe dream.I looked in the late Andrew Mowbray's book also but to no avail. I really love early US swords and this one spoke to me while at a friend house. Of course he had just gotten it in and unfortunately I showed my excitement so he racked me pretty good for it.I don't care as it is now hanging on my wall. You show some very nice blades also sir.

Jim McDougall,
I was educated guessing on it being German. It could easily be British. I am hoping to hear more on the subject.

Terry K · 8th August 2016, 05:05 AM

Here are some more pictures of the blade

Terry K · 8th August 2016, 05:06 AM

last

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2016, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry K

Hotspur,
Thanks you so much for answering my inquiry. You have given me a wealth of info. I tried to find it in my American Eagle Head Swords book from the Medicus collection. Some were close but no exact, I know that was a pipe dream.I looked in the late Andrew Mowbray's book also but to no avail. I really love early US swords and this one spoke to me while at a friend house. Of course he had just gotten it in and unfortunately I showed my excitement so he racked me pretty good for it.I don't care as it is now hanging on my wall. You show some very nice blades also sir.

Jim McDougall,
I was educated guessing on it being German. It could easily be British. I am hoping to hear more on the subject.

Hi Terry,
As Glen has noted, this hilt is most likely British but blades in this period in England were often German. As I mentioned, the cross hatch on these grips reminds me of British swords for officers of this period. I would defer on any further notes on this outstanding sabre to Glen, as he is the master on the field of American swords.

Terry K · 9th August 2016, 01:46 AM

Hi Jim,
Thanks for answer. I only thought the blade may be German as it has kettle drums on it instead of regular ones. Also I have seen numerous German embellished like thia, but have seen other ones done about the same. I've played at collecting for 50 + years and love learning every day.

Terry

Hotspur · 9th August 2016, 09:00 PM

Hi Terry

I had come across my example on Ebay and although priced very well, the shipping cost posted seems to have scared others away. I had contacted the seller before the auction ceased and they said they would reimburse any cost above actual shipping. Waiting pensively until the end, my single bid accepted and the sword with check arrived virtually untouched for two centuries.

There is a very brief passage in Mowbray mentioning these with backstraps and he placed them after the war, with a promise to discuss it in "volume 2". The best we have is the younger Mowbray working with Flayderman and the Medicus collection.

There is a faint chance these were cutlered in New York state, up the Hudson (where mine surfaced) but other traits remain that they were brief English cast versions. None I have seen are marked other than mine, with the Woolley Deakin blade mark. Your etching does appear it could easily be the same we see on Kirschbaum & Schimmelbusch (sp). There is still a K&S bird on Ebay but I have its twin in a picture file. I will post that along with mine as I found it. My short term memory is shot but it is a NY jeweler that I was thinking of, ah Issac Hutton of Albany. My acquisition thread here, with Dmitry's example.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...n-amp-Co-Blade

The K&S marked sword almost a Ketland type head with a backstrap.

Cheers

GC

Note; the only cleaning I did to mine was to remove a layer of varnish that had been applied at some point.

3rd August 2016, 09:17 PM	#1
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	Early 1800's US Eagle head Sword I picked this up a couple of days ago in a trade. I believe it is an Artillery Officer's sabre from 1800-1820. Of course missing scabbard. Has floral design on both sides with kettle type drums, crossed flag and pike with "freedom" capand the U>S> eagl withe motto on the other. Can't make out any markings, but thinking German maker. Has flamming bomb on bottom of cross guard. Your thoughts? Terry Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th August 2016 at 09:54 AM. Reason: specify eagle head for more discussion

5th August 2016, 07:01 AM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	A very pretty eagle pommel from the first decade of the 19th century. I have one that is similar with a plain blade marked to Woolley Deakin & Co. Mine has leather over wood for the grip. John Salter of London sold similar eagle pommel swords. Even if it turned out to be a German blade, the bird is Brit ish A worthwhile book for these is this title http://www.gunandswordcollector.com/..._EA_eagle.html Without a maker or retailer name on the blade, there isn't a whole lot more that can be said. A flaming bomb motif usually marks a grenadier in Europe and while this is the first I have seen in the counterguard like that on an eagle pommel, I have seen a couple with multiple grenades chased into the gaurd. IMO, one of the prettier eagles. Cheers GC Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 5th August 2016 at 07:27 AM.

5th August 2016, 07:14 AM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Mowbray dismisses these with backstraps as post war 1812 but my Woolley Deakin kind of puts that myth to rest. The floating pommel type sometimes regarded as a Dyer type. It has been so long since I have read the text that I might make a mistake but iirc, Dyer was New England. I have a couple of other picture files of these with floating pommels. The French Captain's sword in Master&Commander was of this type. Cheers GC Attached Images

5th August 2016, 07:24 AM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Where oh where is that file. These floating pommel examples seem to vary more, cutler to cutler. Attached Images

8th August 2016, 05:05 AM	#8
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	Here are some more pictures of the blade Attached Images

5th August 2016, 09:52 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Glen, I'm glad you came in on this!!! Ive been going mad trying to find info on American eagle hilts, and discovered I don't have Peterson with me, nor some of the Man at Arms articles. As I have said for many years now...you are the boss when it comes to American swords!!!! In searching through whatever info I could find on line, I did find that it seems most American eagle head officers swords pre 1820s or 30s were produced in England, France or Germany. One note claimed that examples with langets were typically German produced....is that a reasonable axiom? For some reason this example seemed British to me, I think due to the cross hatch on the bone grips, which reminded me of other British hilts of this time. I am curious on the eagles, while this one has a smooth head, the others, such as Ketland, have pronounced flat heads but I cannot think of the term. It seems this has been rather appointed the 'American' form of eagle, sometimes called 'screaming eagle' ? Just seemed like a good opportunity to detail some notes on American eagle head swords.

5th August 2016, 06:26 PM	#6
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	I would be careful with the langet attribution, as many past the 1820s were marked and cutlered on both sides of the channel. The Mowbray book still the gold standard for the early swords but there are some tdbits in Hartzler's Lattimer Collection book. Flayderman and the younger Mowbray publishing the Medicus Collection offers a very comprehensive (while sparse reading) flash card deck. The early use of eagles with langets actually goes (in part} to Le Page and others in France. Eagle types almost infinite. Below an older link to my eagle mania. Some misplaced on purpose, others simply misfiled, a general image dump of mine up to a few years ago. My current drive still updated almost daily, so this shared folder just a start https://drive.google.com/folderview?...mM&usp=sharing Just a for instance, one will find Dyer types in both the Salter folder and a separate subfolder under another category. Similarly, I have Bates and Bolton together. I may never publish more than these simple posts but I pretty much still live and breath eagle pommels. I don't think I'll ever have all the knowledge. With the variety so, so diverse, it is much easier to discuss a paticular variety than speaking in broad terms. Cheers GC

7th August 2016, 05:29 AM	#7
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	Hotspur, Thanks you so much for answering my inquiry. You have given me a wealth of info. I tried to find it in my American Eagle Head Swords book from the Medicus collection. Some were close but no exact, I know that was a pipe dream.I looked in the late Andrew Mowbray's book also but to no avail. I really love early US swords and this one spoke to me while at a friend house. Of course he had just gotten it in and unfortunately I showed my excitement so he racked me pretty good for it.I don't care as it is now hanging on my wall. You show some very nice blades also sir. Jim McDougall, I was educated guessing on it being German. It could easily be British. I am hoping to hear more on the subject.

8th August 2016, 05:06 AM	#9
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	last Attached Images

9th August 2016, 01:46 AM	#11
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	Hi Jim, Thanks for answer. I only thought the blade may be German as it has kettle drums on it instead of regular ones. Also I have seen numerous German embellished like thia, but have seen other ones done about the same. I've played at collecting for 50 + years and love learning every day. Terry

9th August 2016, 09:00 PM	#12
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Hi Terry I had come across my example on Ebay and although priced very well, the shipping cost posted seems to have scared others away. I had contacted the seller before the auction ceased and they said they would reimburse any cost above actual shipping. Waiting pensively until the end, my single bid accepted and the sword with check arrived virtually untouched for two centuries. There is a very brief passage in Mowbray mentioning these with backstraps and he placed them after the war, with a promise to discuss it in "volume 2". The best we have is the younger Mowbray working with Flayderman and the Medicus collection. There is a faint chance these were cutlered in New York state, up the Hudson (where mine surfaced) but other traits remain that they were brief English cast versions. None I have seen are marked other than mine, with the Woolley Deakin blade mark. Your etching does appear it could easily be the same we see on Kirschbaum & Schimmelbusch (sp). There is still a K&S bird on Ebay but I have its twin in a picture file. I will post that along with mine as I found it. My short term memory is shot but it is a NY jeweler that I was thinking of, ah Issac Hutton of Albany. My acquisition thread here, with Dmitry's example. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...n-amp-Co-Blade The K&S marked sword almost a Ketland type head with a backstrap. Cheers GC Note; the only cleaning I did to mine was to remove a layer of varnish that had been applied at some point. Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 9th August 2016 at 09:15 PM. Reason: typlos-attacments