Ancestors of modern sabers

ariel · 2nd December 2006, 09:23 PM

Just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0595&rd=1&rd=1
If they are real (and I tend to believe they are), we can learn a lot from them!
I am not very much into so much rust and the price is rather "biting", but ... nice to look at them.

Philip · 3rd December 2006, 08:02 AM

Hi, Ariel
Thanks for sharing this link. Quite a few of these are hitting the market as of late, I hear "on the street" that many are being excavated in and exported from Hungary. Those are attributed to the Avars, a nomadic warrior people of Asiatic origin who invaded Eastern Europe around the 9th cent. AD.

Although we have heard a lot of "bad news" from our colleagues in the European medieval sword field about the plethora of fakes coming out of Eastern Europe, I have examined a number of these Eurasian sabers (including the one in the Met) and am generally confident that most are indeeed "kosher" . For one thing, these blades to date have been a rather esoteric collecting field with limited appeal (as opposed to the long-standing immense interest in the swords of Western Europe's chivalric age), there has been little financial incentive to fake them.

Last summer I bought one from Czerny's (it was an unsold lot). Blade very similar to the longer one in the eBay sale, with the iron scabbard chape attached. I removed the chape, and found the blade to be in surprisingly good condition in most parts (other areas predictably corroded), with surfaces and contours in far better condition than the eBay specimens.
What interested me was the sleeve or "tunkou" at the forte (almost identical to later Chinese examples), and the prominent ridges or "shinogi" on both sides. I polished a portion of the blade and found it to be quite a decent example of lamellar construction. Gently flexing the blade reveals that it is quite resilient, and it rings clearly when struck (most reassuring to know that it isn't a hammered-down piece of wrought-iron fence post

)

TVV · 4th December 2006, 03:12 AM

Philip,
I believe the Avars were mostly gone by the 9th century AD, destroyed by Charlemagne in the early 9th century and their lands split between the Frankish Empire and the Bulgarian Khanate. They were a major presence in Eastern and Central Europe in the prior few centuries, but I do not think that they should get the credit for bringing the sabre to Europe. Based on archaological finds, the Magyars were the ones who brought the weapon from Asia. The Avars, and the Bulgars used the palash - a straight, single edged slashing weapon, similar to the sabre and perhaps its predecessor, but still not a sabre per se.
I do not know how many sabres have come to the market being recently found in Hungary, but keep in mind that in Bulgaria there have been about a dozen sabre finds, including fragments, for more than a century now. I know, Bulgaria is small, but so is Hungary. Also consider Hungarian laws, which I am pretty certain prohibit the export of antiquities, just as the laws of other Eastern European countries. This does not prove anything, but it makes me suspicious, as there is plenty of incentive for forgers to make good fakes - and believe me, there are some excellent craftsmen in Eastern Europe, who can make superb replicas.
Regards,
Teodor

Philip · 5th December 2006, 05:05 AM

Teodor,
Thanks for the information. In my post, the Avar attribution is something given to the pieces which are now coming onto the marketplace in Western Europe; I wouldn't necessarily ID them as such, but you can look at the autumn 2005 catalog of Hermann Historica in Munich to see what I mean. I meant to say that dealers are calling them that, it's up to individual collectors and students to identify them properly. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

In my post I did not specifically give the credit to the Avars for bringing sabers to Europe, I am quite familiar with the Magyars. I trust that you have W. W. Arendt's article on these early sabers in an issue of ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA from the 1930s, and other literature pertaining to this material.

TVV · 5th December 2006, 06:13 AM

Philip,
Thanks for pointing out Arendt's article to me - I have not read it but I will try to find it. My primary interest in this age lies not with the Magyars, but with the Bulgars (Danube and Volga) and the Avars (as far as these mixed with the Bulgars), and so it is Avar and especially Bulgar weapons that I have studied. This is why I found it necessary to point out that unless there are new archaeological discoveries, these two peoples do not seem to have known know the sabre, or at least to have used it as extensively as the Magyars did later. I am sorry if I created any confusion.
As for the attributions, I am sure we agree that auction houses should not be trusted completely. The sword pictured in Hermann-Historica's catalogue is interesting, but I would not call it a sabre, since it is not curved (and Hermann-Historica do not call it a sabre either). As for the dating, I hope one day there will be a realiable study which would be able to separate sabres into periods and cultures according to style (Bulgar sabres, once they were adopted were different from the Magyar ones, but this is a different topic). For now, I think that a dating needs to be attributed according to finds surrounding the sabre, such as pottery, jewelry, etc. One thing is certain - it is not Avar - the blade is too narrow and too long. Furthermore, the term Avarisch-Chasarisch is way too broad, just as the term Eurasian, and seems to be applied to any Steppe Peoples' weapon from the sixth century Avars to the 13th century Cumans.
This is a fascinating topic, which has not been studied enough. My knowledge is extremely limited, and I would love to learn as much as I can.
Regards,
Teodor

Philip · 5th December 2006, 06:43 AM

Teodor,
You are right, more research is necessary in this field. Swords, backswords, and sabers of the various peoples which inhabited vast stretches of western Asia and eastern Europe during the middle ages have been recovered and studied by scholars of various nations, but what is needed is a comprhensive study that attempts to tie together all of these in an overall historical and ethnographic context.

You might find these works useful, included is the complete citation for Arendt's article.

W. Arendt, "Tuerkische Saebel aus den VIII-IX. Jahrhunderts", ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA 16, (1935). A very rare publication, I searched bookstores all over Budapest with no luck, I found a copy in the library of the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Anatolij Kirpicnikov, "Der sogenante Saebel Karls des Grossen", GLADIUS 10 (1972)

---, "Mittelaelterlicher Saebel mit einer armenischen Inschriften gefunden in subpolaren Ural", GLADIUS 10, (1972)

Yu. S. Khudyakov, VOORUZHENIYE YENISEYSKIKH KYRGYZOV: VI-XII vv, (Novosibirsk: Akademia Nauk SSSR, 1980

Rivkin · 5th December 2006, 07:56 PM

Khudyakov since then wrote two brochures, which incorporate the given article- Weapons of Central Asia in middle ages (end in XIth century) and Weapons of Central Asia, late middle ages (a.k.a. mongol period). What can I say - phenomenal reviews. I have both, in electronic format. Then there is Derevjanko "To the question of arms of Mohe warrior", Ivanov "Arms of middle age nomads of southern Urals and ...", Pletneva "Ancient Russia - city, castle, village", Komar and Suhobokov "Weapons and military of Khazar Kaganate", Kaminsky 3 part review articles "Alanic weapons ...", and so on and so on, including dozens of Ph.D.

Philip, let's change - I have all of the stuff above and much more in electronics, tell me what you need

I can even help translate. But I don't have this:

W. Arendt, "Tuerkische Saebel aus den VIII-IX. Jahrhunderts", ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA 16, (1935). A very rare publication, I searched bookstores all over Budapest with no luck, I found a copy in the library of the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Anatolij Kirpicnikov, "Der sogenante Saebel Karls des Grossen", GLADIUS 10 (1972)

TVV · 6th December 2006, 03:55 AM

Wouldn't it be easier to simply upload these articles, which are in electronic format or easy to scan, somewhere? I can arrange hosting for a certain amount of time.
Here is what I have in electronic format (scanned and pdf-ed):

Кирпичников А. Н. Древнерусское оружие. Вып. 1. Мечи и сабли ІХ-ХІІІ вв. САИ. E1-36. M.1966.

Йотов, Валери - "Въоръжението и Снаряжението от Първото Българско Царство (VII - IX век)" - the chapter on sabres (A catalogue of all known archaeological finds from the 7th to the 9th centuries on the territory of nowadays Bulgaria. Anyone who can read Russian would be able to understand the vital information in the text - dating, measurements, and location of the finds).

I personally could not agree more that a non-biased, comprehensive study of the swords used by the Peoples inhabitting Eastern Europe and Western Asia in the middle ages is really needed, as Eastern European scholars tend to be under nationalistic influences - for example there is a tendency in Bulgaria for archeologists attributing almost every find to the Bulgars, as opposed to Magyars, Avars, Cumans and other ethnicities using similar weapons, who passed through the same lands. However, I am not an academian, just a collector and part-time enthusiast, and all I can do is just gather as much information as I can and then pass it on to people I know, who might actually be willing to study the subject thoroughly and write a major work on it.
Regards,
Teodor

Rivkin · 6th December 2006, 06:26 AM

Space is not a problem - I have a website. However, I would not want to post it for everyone to see, so here is what I think:

a. Everyone who wants to see my materials, please e-mail me using our forum.
b. Since most of the materials are in word I can use a robot to translate it from russian to english. Would it be desirable or not ?

I will need two weeks to do it.

Rivkin · 6th December 2006, 05:14 PM

Gentlemen,

Thank you for all the information I received in emails. I need an advice on whether to put the information in "bastardized" english translation, or in russian original.

I have a conference in January, but will do the best I can to put the material on the web ASAP.

Sincerely yours,

Kirill Rivkin

tsubame1 · 6th December 2006, 07:47 PM

I'm italian and, sadly, accustomed to ancient items looting.
Noone here realize that all those weapons are *looted* ?
That such an antique sword worths *nothing* without the information that
comes from the site where they were excavated from ?
This is a shame because of such *findings* in reality make all of us poorest
considering the amount of info lost, as to say other items found with them,
context, correct location and so on. A shame.

Rivkin · 20th December 2006, 08:50 PM

Second update of my literature database is now available. If you have not received the address of the database either I failed to send it to you (Chris Evans, your email does not work), or you have not pmed or emailed me asking to be included in the distrbution.

The new material: a few articles in the "Steppe" section, review of early ranged weapons (crossbows, bows and etc) by Medvedev, Catalogues of selected Russian museums.

All literature is in Russian and since most of the people did not want to see a "robotic" english translation, it is in Russian only.

Chris Evans · 20th December 2006, 11:35 PM

Hi Rivkin,

[QUOTE=(Chris Evans, your email does not work), .[/QUOTE]

My e-mail address is: hotham@ihug.com.au

Let me assure you that it works because of huge amounts of spam that I get. Please put in the header "RIVKIN"

Many thanks
Chris

2nd December 2006, 09:23 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ancestors of modern sabers Just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0595&rd=1&rd=1 If they are real (and I tend to believe they are), we can learn a lot from them! I am not very much into so much rust and the price is rather "biting", but ... nice to look at them.

5th December 2006, 06:43 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	bibliographical references Teodor, You are right, more research is necessary in this field. Swords, backswords, and sabers of the various peoples which inhabited vast stretches of western Asia and eastern Europe during the middle ages have been recovered and studied by scholars of various nations, but what is needed is a comprhensive study that attempts to tie together all of these in an overall historical and ethnographic context. You might find these works useful, included is the complete citation for Arendt's article. W. Arendt, "Tuerkische Saebel aus den VIII-IX. Jahrhunderts", ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA 16, (1935). A very rare publication, I searched bookstores all over Budapest with no luck, I found a copy in the library of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Anatolij Kirpicnikov, "Der sogenante Saebel Karls des Grossen", GLADIUS 10 (1972) ---, "Mittelaelterlicher Saebel mit einer armenischen Inschriften gefunden in subpolaren Ural", GLADIUS 10, (1972) Yu. S. Khudyakov, VOORUZHENIYE YENISEYSKIKH KYRGYZOV: VI-XII vv, (Novosibirsk: Akademia Nauk SSSR, 1980

3rd December 2006, 08:02 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Hi, Ariel Thanks for sharing this link. Quite a few of these are hitting the market as of late, I hear "on the street" that many are being excavated in and exported from Hungary. Those are attributed to the Avars, a nomadic warrior people of Asiatic origin who invaded Eastern Europe around the 9th cent. AD. Although we have heard a lot of "bad news" from our colleagues in the European medieval sword field about the plethora of fakes coming out of Eastern Europe, I have examined a number of these Eurasian sabers (including the one in the Met) and am generally confident that most are indeeed "kosher" . For one thing, these blades to date have been a rather esoteric collecting field with limited appeal (as opposed to the long-standing immense interest in the swords of Western Europe's chivalric age), there has been little financial incentive to fake them. Last summer I bought one from Czerny's (it was an unsold lot). Blade very similar to the longer one in the eBay sale, with the iron scabbard chape attached. I removed the chape, and found the blade to be in surprisingly good condition in most parts (other areas predictably corroded), with surfaces and contours in far better condition than the eBay specimens. What interested me was the sleeve or "tunkou" at the forte (almost identical to later Chinese examples), and the prominent ridges or "shinogi" on both sides. I polished a portion of the blade and found it to be quite a decent example of lamellar construction. Gently flexing the blade reveals that it is quite resilient, and it rings clearly when struck (most reassuring to know that it isn't a hammered-down piece of wrought-iron fence post )

4th December 2006, 03:12 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	Philip, I believe the Avars were mostly gone by the 9th century AD, destroyed by Charlemagne in the early 9th century and their lands split between the Frankish Empire and the Bulgarian Khanate. They were a major presence in Eastern and Central Europe in the prior few centuries, but I do not think that they should get the credit for bringing the sabre to Europe. Based on archaological finds, the Magyars were the ones who brought the weapon from Asia. The Avars, and the Bulgars used the palash - a straight, single edged slashing weapon, similar to the sabre and perhaps its predecessor, but still not a sabre per se. I do not know how many sabres have come to the market being recently found in Hungary, but keep in mind that in Bulgaria there have been about a dozen sabre finds, including fragments, for more than a century now. I know, Bulgaria is small, but so is Hungary. Also consider Hungarian laws, which I am pretty certain prohibit the export of antiquities, just as the laws of other Eastern European countries. This does not prove anything, but it makes me suspicious, as there is plenty of incentive for forgers to make good fakes - and believe me, there are some excellent craftsmen in Eastern Europe, who can make superb replicas. Regards, Teodor

5th December 2006, 05:05 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Teodor, Thanks for the information. In my post, the Avar attribution is something given to the pieces which are now coming onto the marketplace in Western Europe; I wouldn't necessarily ID them as such, but you can look at the autumn 2005 catalog of Hermann Historica in Munich to see what I mean. I meant to say that dealers are calling them that, it's up to individual collectors and students to identify them properly. Sorry if I caused any confusion. In my post I did not specifically give the credit to the Avars for bringing sabers to Europe, I am quite familiar with the Magyars. I trust that you have W. W. Arendt's article on these early sabers in an issue of ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA from the 1930s, and other literature pertaining to this material.

5th December 2006, 06:13 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	Philip, Thanks for pointing out Arendt's article to me - I have not read it but I will try to find it. My primary interest in this age lies not with the Magyars, but with the Bulgars (Danube and Volga) and the Avars (as far as these mixed with the Bulgars), and so it is Avar and especially Bulgar weapons that I have studied. This is why I found it necessary to point out that unless there are new archaeological discoveries, these two peoples do not seem to have known know the sabre, or at least to have used it as extensively as the Magyars did later. I am sorry if I created any confusion. As for the attributions, I am sure we agree that auction houses should not be trusted completely. The sword pictured in Hermann-Historica's catalogue is interesting, but I would not call it a sabre, since it is not curved (and Hermann-Historica do not call it a sabre either). As for the dating, I hope one day there will be a realiable study which would be able to separate sabres into periods and cultures according to style (Bulgar sabres, once they were adopted were different from the Magyar ones, but this is a different topic). For now, I think that a dating needs to be attributed according to finds surrounding the sabre, such as pottery, jewelry, etc. One thing is certain - it is not Avar - the blade is too narrow and too long. Furthermore, the term Avarisch-Chasarisch is way too broad, just as the term Eurasian, and seems to be applied to any Steppe Peoples' weapon from the sixth century Avars to the 13th century Cumans. This is a fascinating topic, which has not been studied enough. My knowledge is extremely limited, and I would love to learn as much as I can. Regards, Teodor

5th December 2006, 07:56 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Khudyakov since then wrote two brochures, which incorporate the given article- Weapons of Central Asia in middle ages (end in XIth century) and Weapons of Central Asia, late middle ages (a.k.a. mongol period). What can I say - phenomenal reviews. I have both, in electronic format. Then there is Derevjanko "To the question of arms of Mohe warrior", Ivanov "Arms of middle age nomads of southern Urals and ...", Pletneva "Ancient Russia - city, castle, village", Komar and Suhobokov "Weapons and military of Khazar Kaganate", Kaminsky 3 part review articles "Alanic weapons ...", and so on and so on, including dozens of Ph.D. Philip, let's change - I have all of the stuff above and much more in electronics, tell me what you need I can even help translate. But I don't have this: W. Arendt, "Tuerkische Saebel aus den VIII-IX. Jahrhunderts", ARCHAEOLOGICA HUNGARICA 16, (1935). A very rare publication, I searched bookstores all over Budapest with no luck, I found a copy in the library of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Anatolij Kirpicnikov, "Der sogenante Saebel Karls des Grossen", GLADIUS 10 (1972)

6th December 2006, 03:55 AM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	Wouldn't it be easier to simply upload these articles, which are in electronic format or easy to scan, somewhere? I can arrange hosting for a certain amount of time. Here is what I have in electronic format (scanned and pdf-ed): Кирпичников А. Н. Древнерусское оружие. Вып. 1. Мечи и сабли ІХ-ХІІІ вв. САИ. E1-36. M.1966. Йотов, Валери - "Въоръжението и Снаряжението от Първото Българско Царство (VII - IX век)" - the chapter on sabres (A catalogue of all known archaeological finds from the 7th to the 9th centuries on the territory of nowadays Bulgaria. Anyone who can read Russian would be able to understand the vital information in the text - dating, measurements, and location of the finds). I personally could not agree more that a non-biased, comprehensive study of the swords used by the Peoples inhabitting Eastern Europe and Western Asia in the middle ages is really needed, as Eastern European scholars tend to be under nationalistic influences - for example there is a tendency in Bulgaria for archeologists attributing almost every find to the Bulgars, as opposed to Magyars, Avars, Cumans and other ethnicities using similar weapons, who passed through the same lands. However, I am not an academian, just a collector and part-time enthusiast, and all I can do is just gather as much information as I can and then pass it on to people I know, who might actually be willing to study the subject thoroughly and write a major work on it. Regards, Teodor

6th December 2006, 06:26 AM	#9
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Space is not a problem - I have a website. However, I would not want to post it for everyone to see, so here is what I think: a. Everyone who wants to see my materials, please e-mail me using our forum. b. Since most of the materials are in word I can use a robot to translate it from russian to english. Would it be desirable or not ? I will need two weeks to do it.

6th December 2006, 05:14 PM	#10
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Gentlemen, Thank you for all the information I received in emails. I need an advice on whether to put the information in "bastardized" english translation, or in russian original. I have a conference in January, but will do the best I can to put the material on the web ASAP. Sincerely yours, Kirill Rivkin

6th December 2006, 07:47 PM	#11
tsubame1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Magenta, Northern Italy Posts: 123	I'm italian and, sadly, accustomed to ancient items looting. Noone here realize that all those weapons are looted ? That such an antique sword worths nothing without the information that comes from the site where they were excavated from ? This is a shame because of such findings in reality make all of us poorest considering the amount of info lost, as to say other items found with them, context, correct location and so on. A shame.

20th December 2006, 08:50 PM	#12
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Second update of my literature database is now available. If you have not received the address of the database either I failed to send it to you (Chris Evans, your email does not work), or you have not pmed or emailed me asking to be included in the distrbution. The new material: a few articles in the "Steppe" section, review of early ranged weapons (crossbows, bows and etc) by Medvedev, Catalogues of selected Russian museums. All literature is in Russian and since most of the people did not want to see a "robotic" english translation, it is in Russian only.

20th December 2006, 11:35 PM	#13
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 676	Hi Rivkin, [QUOTE=(Chris Evans, your email does not work), .[/QUOTE] My e-mail address is: hotham@ihug.com.au Let me assure you that it works because of huge amounts of spam that I get. Please put in the header "RIVKIN" Many thanks Chris