Is this a Black Sea Yatagan?

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 08:15 AM

Please provide some insights or some info on this interesting Yatagan. It is not a classic type and I believe it must from Black Sea or Caucasus region. What do you guys think ?

kronckew · 30th December 2018, 10:07 AM

Looks more Balkan, a Karakulak (Black Horn) Yataghan, the black sea ones have pointy forked 'horns' on the grip and an exaggerated curve like these below. The balkan ones tend to have integral bolsters, Turkish ones usually have the sheet metal ones.

Yours is a nice one, wherever it comes from. I prefer the lean mean fighters above the ornate bejewelled ivory ones.

The cartouche might help pin it down for those who cn recognise or translate it.

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Looks more Balkan, a Karakulak (Black Horn) Yataghan, the black sea ones have pointy forked 'horns' on the grip and an exaggerated curve like these below. The balkan ones tend to have integral bolsters, Turkish ones usually have the sheet metal ones.

Yours is a nice one, wherever it comes from. I prefer the lean mean fighters above the ornate bejewelled ivory ones.

The cartouche might help pin it down for those who cn recognise or translate it.

Thank you for the input. I highly doubt it is from the Balkans. I am familiar with the Laz Yatagan and I do have some of my own. I also collect knives from the Black Sea region and this Yatagan very much reminds me of the knives from that area. Also the scabbard style is like the ones they used with Laz Yatagans. I wonder if anybody has seen a similar one of these before because I have not.
Also thank you for zooming into the cartouche. If anyone can help with that it would be great.

ariel · 30th December 2018, 09:53 PM

It is definitely NOT a Laz Bichaq.

I see very little if any resemblance of its scabbard to the Surmene knives or LB ones. It was also altered : see trouser belt.

The blade is very much of a generic Ottoman/Balkan configuration. I am not very supportive of a Bulgarian Karakulak : IMHO the blade profile is much too refined and elegant for a shepherd knife.

The ears are also generic, could be from anywhere but NOT of a Laz tradition.

It is a very decent run-of - the- mill Ottoman yataghan. Those were made in tens of thousands all over the Empire, but there is nothing to connect this one with several well-defined patterns: Laz, North Africa, Zejbek or Bulgaria.

Thus, my guess : Anatolia or Western Balkans.

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 10:38 PM

The resemblance comes from the leather weave on the scabbard . Also the handle is not typical of the Anatolian T shape handles. As well as the makers mark on the blade is not common on Anatolian or Balkan Yatagans. Definitely an odd piece. Ariel, do you recognize the makers mark by any chance ? Looks like something you would find on a kindjal or qaddara.

ariel · 30th December 2018, 11:25 PM

Re: wrapping.
I see what you are referring to: some LB scabbards have a purely decorative panel of tightly woven thin leather ribbons, often black and green ( see attached pics) . Yours has a segment of non-patterned wrapping of a single ribbon that is very loose. My guess, this was not a decoration, but just a way of binding the scabbard to strengthen it.
Re. Anatolian yataghans.
T-pommel is specific only for Zeibek yataghans from Bursa area. This is one of the few infrequent yataghan patterns that is specifically recognized as belonging to a specific group ( see my earlier post).
The rest of Anatolian yataghans had garden variety ears.

Regretfully, I cannot decipher the stamp. Moreover, I cannot recall any LB with a bladesmith's stamp. If they exist, they must be very unusual.

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 11:48 PM

Ariel, I’m just curious to see what else you have in collection, you have such a vast knowledge

. I am by the way from Bursa and familiar with Zeybek Yatagans and they are not usually from Bursa area but rather the Aegean coast, places like Izmir, Aydin and Afyon.Also I think the tightly vowen leather ribbons do have a purpose and they bind the scabbard cover with the leather piece that has a loop for the belt as to allow the knife to be hung from a belt or a rope around the waist. I have seen the same design in some Black Sea knives that I have. And I think it’s common style that comes from Black Sea or Surmene area specifically.
And the cartouche or the makers mark, i said was similar to those on kindjals or quaddaras and not on the LBs.
PS: I greatly enjoy the Laz Yatagan I got from you!
Thank you!

sfenoid13 · 31st December 2018, 12:13 AM

An example

sfenoid13 · 31st December 2018, 12:16 AM

And coupes Black Sea knives with similar vowen leather scabbards

OsobistGB · 31st December 2018, 01:10 AM

Your yatagan is probably from the Trabzon region.Not much to do with

laz biçak / karadeniz yatağan.
Here are some pictures of mine laz biçak.

sfenoid13 · 31st December 2018, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OsobistGB

Your yatagan is probably from the Trabzon region.Not much to do with

laz biçak / karadeniz yatağan.
Here are some pictures of mine laz biçak.

I agree. Nice Laz! Did you make the scabbard ?

ariel · 31st December 2018, 06:04 AM

Years ago , before it was established that those curious contraptions with fancifully curved blades and sharp horns for a pommel were coming from Lazistan, there were passionate arguments about their origin.

There were those who called them Egyptian, because the form of the blade was a dead ringer of an ancient Egyptian khopesh.

Anthony Tirri maintained that they were Algerean, based on some features similar to flissa: very thin heedless-like point and semicircular or slanted heel of the blade.

And there were some who paid attention to the black and green leather ribbons seen on some Sudanese/ Somali daggers.

All these theories went the way of Dodo with the publication of photographs from Lazistan.

Laz Bichaqs are easily recognized, with no similar examples known to man and beast.

But let me agree with Osobist: let us assume that with a lot of imagination one can find some features on the Sphenoid’s yataghan that do resemble some features of Laz Bichaq. IMHO, no matter what, it does not and will not allow us to classify it as true LB.

Weapons tend to borrow or inherently have some similarities with foreign examples. Some Tulwars have prominent false edges, but they are not Ottoman kilijes. Guardless Bukhara sabers are not Caucasian shashkas.

And the weapon presented here is a yataghan, but not a Laz Bichaq, aka Black Sea Yataghan

sfenoid13 · 31st December 2018, 04:43 PM

Ariel thank you for your response and I really appreciate your expertise and knowledge. I completely agree with your opinion. It’s not a Black Sea Yatagan or Laz Bichak or a Laz Yatagan some would call them. Perhaps it’s just a Yatagan from the area; a Yatagan from Black Sea ...

ariel · 31st December 2018, 05:43 PM

Osobist,
Have you noticed that your BSY is marked with Greek letters?

Even though we call them Laz Bichaq, they were not limited to Moslem Laz. If you look in the archives, you will find photos of Pontic Greeks with them.

30th December 2018, 08:15 AM	#1
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Is this a Black Sea Yatagan? Please provide some insights or some info on this interesting Yatagan. It is not a classic type and I believe it must from Black Sea or Caucasus region. What do you guys think ? Attached Images

30th December 2018, 10:07 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Looks more Balkan, a Karakulak (Black Horn) Yataghan, the black sea ones have pointy forked 'horns' on the grip and an exaggerated curve like these below. The balkan ones tend to have integral bolsters, Turkish ones usually have the sheet metal ones. Yours is a nice one, wherever it comes from. I prefer the lean mean fighters above the ornate bejewelled ivory ones. The cartouche might help pin it down for those who cn recognise or translate it. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 30th December 2018 at 10:31 AM.

30th December 2018, 11:25 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Re: wrapping. I see what you are referring to: some LB scabbards have a purely decorative panel of tightly woven thin leather ribbons, often black and green ( see attached pics) . Yours has a segment of non-patterned wrapping of a single ribbon that is very loose. My guess, this was not a decoration, but just a way of binding the scabbard to strengthen it. Re. Anatolian yataghans. T-pommel is specific only for Zeibek yataghans from Bursa area. This is one of the few infrequent yataghan patterns that is specifically recognized as belonging to a specific group ( see my earlier post). The rest of Anatolian yataghans had garden variety ears. Regretfully, I cannot decipher the stamp. Moreover, I cannot recall any LB with a bladesmith's stamp. If they exist, they must be very unusual. Attached Images

31st December 2018, 12:13 AM	#8
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	An example Attached Images

31st December 2018, 12:16 AM	#9
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	And coupes Black Sea knives with similar vowen leather scabbards Attached Images

30th December 2018, 09:53 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is definitely NOT a Laz Bichaq. I see very little if any resemblance of its scabbard to the Surmene knives or LB ones. It was also altered : see trouser belt. The blade is very much of a generic Ottoman/Balkan configuration. I am not very supportive of a Bulgarian Karakulak : IMHO the blade profile is much too refined and elegant for a shepherd knife. The ears are also generic, could be from anywhere but NOT of a Laz tradition. It is a very decent run-of - the- mill Ottoman yataghan. Those were made in tens of thousands all over the Empire, but there is nothing to connect this one with several well-defined patterns: Laz, North Africa, Zejbek or Bulgaria. Thus, my guess : Anatolia or Western Balkans.

30th December 2018, 10:38 PM	#5
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	The resemblance comes from the leather weave on the scabbard . Also the handle is not typical of the Anatolian T shape handles. As well as the makers mark on the blade is not common on Anatolian or Balkan Yatagans. Definitely an odd piece. Ariel, do you recognize the makers mark by any chance ? Looks like something you would find on a kindjal or qaddara.

30th December 2018, 11:48 PM	#7
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Ariel, I’m just curious to see what else you have in collection, you have such a vast knowledge . I am by the way from Bursa and familiar with Zeybek Yatagans and they are not usually from Bursa area but rather the Aegean coast, places like Izmir, Aydin and Afyon.Also I think the tightly vowen leather ribbons do have a purpose and they bind the scabbard cover with the leather piece that has a loop for the belt as to allow the knife to be hung from a belt or a rope around the waist. I have seen the same design in some Black Sea knives that I have. And I think it’s common style that comes from Black Sea or Surmene area specifically. And the cartouche or the makers mark, i said was similar to those on kindjals or quaddaras and not on the LBs. PS: I greatly enjoy the Laz Yatagan I got from you! Thank you!

31st December 2018, 01:10 AM	#10
OsobistGB Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 94	Your yatagan is probably from the Trabzon region.Not much to do with laz biçak / karadeniz yatağan. Here are some pictures of mine laz biçak. Attached Images

31st December 2018, 06:04 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Years ago , before it was established that those curious contraptions with fancifully curved blades and sharp horns for a pommel were coming from Lazistan, there were passionate arguments about their origin. There were those who called them Egyptian, because the form of the blade was a dead ringer of an ancient Egyptian khopesh. Anthony Tirri maintained that they were Algerean, based on some features similar to flissa: very thin heedless-like point and semicircular or slanted heel of the blade. And there were some who paid attention to the black and green leather ribbons seen on some Sudanese/ Somali daggers. All these theories went the way of Dodo with the publication of photographs from Lazistan. Laz Bichaqs are easily recognized, with no similar examples known to man and beast. But let me agree with Osobist: let us assume that with a lot of imagination one can find some features on the Sphenoid’s yataghan that do resemble some features of Laz Bichaq. IMHO, no matter what, it does not and will not allow us to classify it as true LB. Weapons tend to borrow or inherently have some similarities with foreign examples. Some Tulwars have prominent false edges, but they are not Ottoman kilijes. Guardless Bukhara sabers are not Caucasian shashkas. And the weapon presented here is a yataghan, but not a Laz Bichaq, aka Black Sea Yataghan

31st December 2018, 04:43 PM	#13
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Ariel thank you for your response and I really appreciate your expertise and knowledge. I completely agree with your opinion. It’s not a Black Sea Yatagan or Laz Bichak or a Laz Yatagan some would call them. Perhaps it’s just a Yatagan from the area; a Yatagan from Black Sea ...

31st December 2018, 05:43 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Osobist, Have you noticed that your BSY is marked with Greek letters? Even though we call them Laz Bichaq, they were not limited to Moslem Laz. If you look in the archives, you will find photos of Pontic Greeks with them.