Karabela...

[S.Al-Anizi]

Hi,

While I was strolling around a museum over here, I found a show case with some swords in it. Two of the swords were fake, the bottom an Indian saber repro, and the top is a newly made Indian tulwar, nice, but not old. The other is a Karabela, although it was sheathed and I wasnt able to see the blade. I was told that that one was Turkish.

Anyway, another sword was nice and I inquired about it. I got an interesting answer from the curator. Anyway, here are the pics:









The hilt as you can see has recently been meddled with. The rivets are new and shiny, and there is some excessive adhesive around the crossguard which was probably used at a later time to secure a loose crossguard. Hilt material is of very old rhino horn as ive been told, the top part of the hilt is covered with a thin corroded piece of sheet iron.

Does this karabela show any definitive style to you? Caucasian? Turkish? Persian? I got a very different answer but I would like to here the public opinion on these.

[ham]

Ahlan w'sahlan ya akhina al Kuwaiti,

This form of saber is based on the Ottoman karabela but is actually Arab urban work of the mid-late 19th century. You can find a good discussion of the type in Elgood, Arabian Arms and Armour.

ma'as salaama

Ham

[S.Al-Anizi]

grrrrr, You got me. This sword I was told is made in the town of AL-Qatif, northeastern arabia. It is the first time I see this style of Arabian sword, which seems to be directly connected to Turkish and Persian Karabelas, so I thought I might take a couple of pics and post them.

May I ask for someone with knowledge of Karabelas to enlighten me please? I would like to know when/where they originated, what their name stands for, and how they spread throughout caucasia, arabia, persia, and turkey.

Its frustrating, I still did not recieve my copy of Dr. Elgoods book! Two more weeks to wait.

[ariel]

What kind of museum is it, that has fakes for exhibition ?

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by ariel

What kind of museum is it, that has fakes for exhibition ?

Exactly , this is what I thought when I first saw those swords. This is supposed to be the Kuwaiti National Heritage Museum. Another showcase showed the military sabers (all wilkinson) of three of Kuwait's rulers and behind them was a newly made, antiqued fake Syrian saif.

This doesnt end here. An antique exhibition I went to a few weeks ago, I saw several Ethiopian swords, all with G.G. blades and Wilkinson blades. Guess what?! The owner of those swords told me that those were "Crusader Swords", and that the Amharic script on them was "Hebrew", the six-point star on the forte's of the Wilkinson blades was "The Star of David", and best of all, the Lion of Judea mark was, you guessed it................................................ .................................................. .............. the signature of "Richard the Lionheart"!!!!!

Some people are really that ignorant, and call themselves scholars and sponsors of heritage and art......

[ariel]

From time to time, some Forumites express their frustration with the incompetence of the museum curators. This usually amounts to some mild errors in identification od esoteric swords.
What you are describing, goes beyond anything imaginable.
Hope you straightened them out
Why wouldn't you offer your services to the museum as a consultant? I am dead serious.

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by ariel

From time to time, some Forumites express their frustration with the incompetence of the museum curators. This usually amounts to some mild errors in identification od esoteric swords.
What you are describing, goes beyond anything imaginable.
Hope you straightened them out
Why wouldn't you offer your services to the museum as a consultant? I am dead serious.

I tried, god knows I tried, but when I told them that those swords were Ethiopian, not "Crusader", and were probably no older than 200 years (more likely 150), not their alleged 850 years.... I was laughed at They seemed certain thorugh some "expert" they knew that those swords were authentic 11th century european swords. Fine with me.

Ive got more important things to do than sulk around in museums. Ive still got to get into a good university first, and focus on my studiying. Sharp, pointy things come later

[Aqtai]

When I visited Kuwait many years ago (before the Iraqi Invasion of 1990) there used to be a very fine Islamic Arts museum with a small but interesting collection of Islamic arms and armour. If it is still there then it will have a good collection.

[B.I]

What you are describing, goes beyond anything imaginable.

something worth noting, and seen in some indian museums. the description card is sometimes very accurate, it just describes a sword long since smuggled out and sold, being replaced with another sword-shaped piece. so, the curator is not just going by his own ignorance, rather reading a card written by a previous, and maybe more knowlegable associate.
remember, many smaller (and some major) museums know nothing about swords, and would not be able to tell the difference between the real thing, and some tourist contraption.
sometimes, when the card gives details that you know cant be true, then it may go past palin ignorance and something a little more disreputable.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

I tried, god knows I tried, but when I told them that those swords were Ethiopian, not "Crusader", and were probably no older than 200 years (more likely 150), not their alleged 850 years.... I was laughed at They seemed certain thorugh some "expert" they knew that those swords were authentic 11th century european swords. Fine with me.

Ive got more important things to do than sulk around in museums. Ive still got to get into a good university first, and focus on my studiying. Sharp, pointy things come later

Son, you got your priorities right!
What do you want to be when you grow up?

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Son, you got your priorities right!
What do you want to be when you grow up?

I always wanted to join the army, but we have no "real" army in Kuwait, I want to join a military like the USMC. My second choice is politics, I hope to achieve a doctorate in politics.

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by Aqtai

When I visited Kuwait many years ago (before the Iraqi Invasion of 1990) there used to be a very fine Islamic Arts museum with a small but interesting collection of Islamic arms and armour. If it is still there then it will have a good collection.

Thanks Hisham, ive looked everywhere for museums, but it seems that there were many temporary exhibitions around, and now they're all gone.

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by B.I

something worth noting, and seen in some indian museums. the description card is sometimes very accurate, it just describes a sword long since smuggled out and sold, being replaced with another sword-shaped piece. so, the curator is not just going by his own ignorance, rather reading a card written by a previous, and maybe more knowlegable associate.
remember, many smaller (and some major) museums know nothing about swords, and would not be able to tell the difference between the real thing, and some tourist contraption.
sometimes, when the card gives details that you know cant be true, then it may go past palin ignorance and something a little more disreputable.

Thanks B.I (sorry i dont know your name ),

those ethiopian swords had no description cards, the curator I talked to, who was the owner of the collection really, was the one who certified that those were "crusader".

Your idea seems logical and certainly does happen though. Im sure that wasnt the case here