OLD OR JUNK?

brekele · 17th April 2007, 08:54 PM

HI GUYS, friend of mine sent me these pictures.
What do you think? Is it old or just piece of junk?

Is there someone have eyes like SUPERMAN?
Oh!! What happened with my friend today?

Emanuel · 17th April 2007, 10:58 PM

No no, not junk at all! I think this is a very nice Balinese piece. It could do with a clean and etch. I can't tell the age, and I do not know the dapur, although I've seen it before. Maybe not too old? but looks good to me.

Regards,
Emanuel

Rick · 18th April 2007, 12:26 AM

Karna Tinanding ?
1900 - pre WW2 ?

Newsteel · 18th April 2007, 02:27 AM

A little cleaning and etching would be better to judge the blade profile. I don't think this piece is a junk at all. This is rather a good and rare dapur (Karna Tinanding) with long straight blade and luks 5 or 7 at near tip. One exceptional detail is that one kembang kacang has jenggot and other is plain smooth curve. Fittings are of Balinese style (maybe Lombok). How old...? I'm not sure but assume this could be dated end 19th century.

Again, would appreaciate if this blade is clean and etch so that we could comment further.

cahaya · 18th April 2007, 04:29 AM

Hi Rick...
As I know Karna Tinanding is straight keris, but this keris at the top (ujung keris) have 6 luk?

Alam Shah · 18th April 2007, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cahaya

Hi Rick...
As I know Karna Tinanding is straight keris, but this keris at the top (ujung keris) have 6 luk?

I believe it's, dapur Pandawa Karna Tinanding. I counted 7 luks. Not junk in my opinion.

The yellowish stain to the blade may be due to improper cleaning.

simatua · 18th April 2007, 01:31 PM

Nice piece .
Clean it up.

I am not sure or the 2nd kembang katjang (telaleh gadjah) is added later on ?
The 2nd lambeh gadjah looks a little different too.
After cleaning and washing the keris will be sure look better, but also spurs of modifications will occur more.

Marcokeris · 18th April 2007, 02:25 PM

Also in my opinion no a junk!
The keris could be from Lombok and the blade seems to had been in contact with lemon or lime juice

brekele · 18th April 2007, 08:46 PM

Hi GUYS, that's what I thought too. (KARNO TINANDING).
But 6 luk on top? hhmm

My opinion would say, M A Y B E....the EMPU who made this blade just copy the original KARNO TINANDING style (let say first pakem in era before) and change it little bit with luk. Because I'm agree with Rick about age (my thought was around 70-80 yrs).
Guys sorry, It is just like teory of reality from A KING who copied a castle of A GREAT KING'S castle.

Is it reasonable GUYS? YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE?

For Emanuel, your eyes it is really like Superman (seriously)!!!.
I'm quite often to get pictures with dirty blades. So, I will show you again another one someday.

And Newsteel, yes it is!!!! blade was found in LOMBOK ISLAND.
I'll bring blade back to forum (of course cleaned condition) to respecting your opinion and all members in this forum.
(I hope that blade come to my hand safe and nicely).

GUYS, THANK YOU ALL

cahaya · 19th April 2007, 03:45 AM

[QUOTE=Alam]
....Pandawa Karno Tinanding.......

Hai. Alam....
Pandawa means = 5 people (Wayang stories) , so if keris Pandawa Karno Tinanding must be 5 luk not 6 or 7 luk....

thanks Alam

Alam Shah · 19th April 2007, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cahaya

Hai. Alam.... Pandawa means = 5 people (Wayang stories) , so if keris Pandawa Karno Tinanding must be 5 luk not 6 or 7 luk....

thanks Alam

Thank you cahaya. Perhaps you're right.

Pangeran Datu · 19th April 2007, 01:14 PM

[QUOTE=cahaya]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam

....Pandawa Karno Tinanding.......

Hai. Alam....
Pandawa means = 5 people (Wayang stories) , so if keris Pandawa Karno Tinanding must be 5 luk not 6 or 7 luk....

thanks Alam

Hi all,

Just a quick note:
- Strictly speaking, Pandawa does not mean five. In the Mahabharata epic, Pandawa was the name of the five Bharata brothers (heroes), sons of Pandhu. They are referred to as: Pancha Pandhava (Sanskrit)/Pandawa Lima (Indo)/Pandawa Five.
However, in Indo, some people do take the word Pandawa to be synonymous with five.

Although the Dapur Pandawa (and its variations) is merely a subset of the dapurs for the 5-Eluk keris, many people in Indo generally refer to ANY 5-Eluk keris as a 'Pandawa'.

- I agree that the particular keris shown above is a 7-Eluk.

- I agree that the dapur on the sor-soran in the picture looks like it is acceptable as one of the forms of Karna Tinanding. However, isn't Karna Tinanding generally restricted to straight kerises?

Anyway, just my thoughts, for what they're worth.

Cheers.

cahaya · 20th April 2007, 04:20 AM

Hi..all

you are correct pangeran datu

brekele · 20th April 2007, 08:17 AM

PANGERAN DATU, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORDS. THAT'S THIS FORUM ALL ABOUT!!! MY BIG JEMPOL RAISED UP HIGHER THAN MY HEAD FOR YOU.
Is there any kos-kos an for rent near by your house PANGERAN DATU?

THANKS
bouwneack001.

brekele · 21st April 2007, 08:33 PM

Hi again GUYS, today the blade is cleaned. Now, It's time for me to learn again

Any opinions?

Battara · 21st April 2007, 10:04 PM

Very nice cleaning and etching job!

David · 21st April 2007, 11:32 PM

Aaahhhh...that feels better, doesn't it?

I strongly suspect that this keris has had alterations, especially after this cleaning where you can follow the pamor lines. That certainlt doesn't make it junk, but in my eyes it makes it less desirable than it would be in it's original dapur.
Nice cleaning job.

Alam Shah · 22nd April 2007, 01:29 AM

The lower quarter areas does seems modified. The two central grooves (kruwingan) seems to be... the pamor looks 'disturbed'. Probably some other dapur type before it is modified into a Karno Tinanding.

Rick · 22nd April 2007, 02:34 AM

The dapur as it appears now lacks a certain flow and harmony; the execution is not too impressive IMO.

brekele · 22nd April 2007, 11:04 AM

Hi Alam, somehow I tought like you before in first moment I got this dirty blade's pics. (Honestly I'm not good in keris experience but most of my friends in Lombok does very much better than me in this subject).
And then I dialed some mobile numbers to INDO for making sure about this keris
being modified/added or not (also for me to learn).
And Opinions of those numbers was IMPOSIBLE IF THERE ARE MODIFIED/ADDED KERIS IN 80 - 90 YEARS AGO JUST BECAUSE FOR TRADING KERIS.
MODIFIED/ADDED KERIS IS JUST CAME UP ABOUT LESS THAN 25 YEARS AGO WHEN BOOMING OF KERISES TRADING IS STARTING.
GUYS, once again.....I stil learn, those opinion above was just fresh from few DIALLED NUMBERS.

And I'm sure ....I BELIEVED THEM (they are some good friends of me).
No "CHEAT AND CHAT" in our relationship so far.

GUYS, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING ENGLISH TEACHER FOR ME. NOW I'M OFTEN TO OPEN DICTIONARY AGAIN

Henk · 22nd April 2007, 11:23 AM

Great job!!!!

Just love this keris!!!!

David · 22nd April 2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brekele

And Opinions of those numbers was IMPOSIBLE IF THERE ARE MODIFIED/ADDED KERIS IN 80 - 90 YEARS AGO JUST BECAUSE FOR TRADING KERIS.
MODIFIED/ADDED KERIS IS JUST CAME UP ABOUT LESS THAN 25 YEARS AGO WHEN BOOMING OF KERISES TRADING IS STARTING.
GUYS, once again.....I stil learn, those opinion above was just fresh from few DIALLED NUMBERS.
And I'm sure ....I BELIEVED THEM (they are some good friends of me).
No "CHEAT AND CHAT" in our relationship so far.

AFAIK modifications have been added to keris for even more than 80-90 years, but certainly it is a practice which has increased in modern times. I think it would be very difficult to tell exactly when this keris may have been modified, but it could very well have been within the last 25 years. It could even have been done in the last few years as there are all kinds of methods to add age to make these changes look original to the keris. I am not in anyway implying that the friend you bought this from was aware of these changes so there is no "cheat and chat" implied, but i would be very surprised if this blade's dapur is original. You might also want to look at what you paid for this keris. Was it hundreds of dollars (USD) or thousands? If this is the original dapur it would be a rather rare one and quite valuable IMO. Your knowledgable Indo friends would probably be aware of this as well.

brekele · 22nd April 2007, 06:46 PM

Hi David, you might right. As I said, I'm not experience enought for this subject and stil want to learn about it.

Anyway, price I bought just a bit more I guess for this one. Because this keris was my ordered to a friend and He probebly look around whole LOMBOK to find this keris.
But it's oke. EXPERIENCE/EDUCATION about this subject is more important for me.

Dave, price you asked? hhhhmmmmm

hhmmmm

hhhmmmmmm

hhmm

Oke, I'll tell you...BUT ssssssssttttt...don't tell to Rick,oke?
(Rp 1,7 jt).

But Now, I have to think sending cost + TAX !!! OHH!!!! OHHH!! HELP?

OHH!!! MUNICH is eeeexxpensive Dave!
ALAMAAAAAAAKKK................!!!!! INAAAAAAAKKKK........!!!!!!

David · 22nd April 2007, 08:06 PM

Actually i wasn't really asking you exactly how much you paid for this keris, that would be rude. Instead i was suggesting that if you consider for yourself how much you paid that information might aid in determining whether this dapur is original or altered work.
As for the taxes, i can certainly relate...but alas, there is not a damn thing we can do about them...Life, Death and Taxes...i am afraid there is little else...oh, and keris of course!

brekele · 23rd April 2007, 06:46 PM

It's oke Dave, this time my English is a bit chaos!
No more little thing else

But keris?
Baaaang!!! here they are!!!!!
Clean your self!!!, pick up only! and NO PAYPAL,Dave.

Address?
Somewhere cross beautiful small villages in LOMBOK.
PUASS!! PUASS!!

David · 24th April 2007, 05:22 AM

Nice collection. Are these all yours or do they belong to your dealer friend?

brekele · 24th April 2007, 06:52 PM

Hi Dave, some of them are flying already to their new owners.
Some of them as I said, somewhere cross beautifull small villages in LOMBOK.

brekele · 4th May 2007, 09:44 AM

Hi Dave, the Keris Karno Tinanding is already came yesterday.
I looked again and again and again.......

Dave, according of authentic kembang kacang of this keris, then this keris is included "keris bener".
Kembang kacang on back side (wadidhang -x-) is thick/normal.
So, if this keris was already added/modified, then kembang kacang on back side became thin (thiner), and is hard/almost impossible because how to bend/warp (melengkungkan) the kembang kacang by the time iron is hot.
Dave, kembang kacang is resulted (dihasilkan) from process of splitting-up iron/blade and (dipuntir = English?)
Again, So....if kembang kacang is already thin, then is almost impossible/hard because easy get broken.

Dave, sorry....I tried my best to explain it in your languages

Dave, the blade is ASLIES but the pamor is not my taste

Rick · 4th May 2007, 09:00 PM

Why did the Ganja not take the stain in the same way the rest of the blade did ?
Possibly it is not made from the same forging ?

brekele · 5th May 2007, 07:33 AM

Yes yes, you right Rick, It is possible of course and also I though same as your when first time I saw it.
Rick, many time I saw this kind of blades in Lombok THAT the blade and gonjo is not same colour and even not same material of iron and here one of them (Pls see pic carrefully).
And now come up 2 opinions of me.
1. It is possible that the gonjo is being added later on...(But not for keris
trading for now,please). We saw together when blade stil dirty.

2. It could b A TREND for keris at that time in LOMBOK that blade and gonjo is
not in same colour/material just to make a little diffrent than others.
(Rick, just my opinion).

I think, second reason is more I believed now.

hmmm.... I wonder what Alan's opinion, Rick. The man knew the field.
Rick, let me try to call him from his meditation's cave. He might want to come up. Ooops! I hope, I don't disturb him, otherwise bad dream come true.

Hi Alan, How are you today?

17th April 2007, 08:54 PM	#1
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	OLD OR JUNK? HI GUYS, friend of mine sent me these pictures. What do you think? Is it old or just piece of junk? Is there someone have eyes like SUPERMAN? Oh!! What happened with my friend today? Attached Images Last edited by brekele; 17th April 2007 at 09:19 PM.

18th April 2007, 12:26 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Dapur / Age Karna Tinanding ? 1900 - pre WW2 ?

21st April 2007, 08:33 PM	#15
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Hi again GUYS, today the blade is cleaned. Now, It's time for me to learn again Any opinions? Attached Images Last edited by brekele; 21st April 2007 at 08:55 PM.

23rd April 2007, 06:46 PM	#25
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	It's oke Dave, this time my English is a bit chaos! No more little thing else But keris? Baaaang!!! here they are!!!!! Clean your self!!!, pick up only! and NO PAYPAL,Dave. Address? Somewhere cross beautiful small villages in LOMBOK. PUASS!! PUASS!! Attached Images

4th May 2007, 09:44 AM	#28
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Hi Dave, the Keris Karno Tinanding is already came yesterday. I looked again and again and again....... Dave, according of authentic kembang kacang of this keris, then this keris is included "keris bener". Kembang kacang on back side (wadidhang -x-) is thick/normal. So, if this keris was already added/modified, then kembang kacang on back side became thin (thiner), and is hard/almost impossible because how to bend/warp (melengkungkan) the kembang kacang by the time iron is hot. Dave, kembang kacang is resulted (dihasilkan) from process of splitting-up iron/blade and (dipuntir = English?) Again, So....if kembang kacang is already thin, then is almost impossible/hard because easy get broken. Dave, sorry....I tried my best to explain it in your languages Dave, the blade is ASLIES but the pamor is not my taste Attached Images

17th April 2007, 10:58 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	No no, not junk at all! I think this is a very nice Balinese piece. It could do with a clean and etch. I can't tell the age, and I do not know the dapur, although I've seen it before. Maybe not too old? but looks good to me. Regards, Emanuel

18th April 2007, 02:27 AM	#4
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	A little cleaning and etching would be better to judge the blade profile. I don't think this piece is a junk at all. This is rather a good and rare dapur (Karna Tinanding) with long straight blade and luks 5 or 7 at near tip. One exceptional detail is that one kembang kacang has jenggot and other is plain smooth curve. Fittings are of Balinese style (maybe Lombok). How old...? I'm not sure but assume this could be dated end 19th century. Again, would appreaciate if this blade is clean and etch so that we could comment further.

18th April 2007, 04:29 AM	#5
cahaya Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 49	Hi Rick... As I know Karna Tinanding is straight keris, but this keris at the top (ujung keris) have 6 luk?

18th April 2007, 01:31 PM	#7
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	Nice piece . Clean it up. I am not sure or the 2nd kembang katjang (telaleh gadjah) is added later on ? The 2nd lambeh gadjah looks a little different too. After cleaning and washing the keris will be sure look better, but also spurs of modifications will occur more.

18th April 2007, 02:25 PM	#8
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Also in my opinion no a junk! The keris could be from Lombok and the blade seems to had been in contact with lemon or lime juice

18th April 2007, 08:46 PM	#9
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Hi GUYS, that's what I thought too. (KARNO TINANDING). But 6 luk on top? hhmm My opinion would say, M A Y B E....the EMPU who made this blade just copy the original KARNO TINANDING style (let say first pakem in era before) and change it little bit with luk. Because I'm agree with Rick about age (my thought was around 70-80 yrs). Guys sorry, It is just like teory of reality from A KING who copied a castle of A GREAT KING'S castle. Is it reasonable GUYS? YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE? For Emanuel, your eyes it is really like Superman (seriously)!!!. I'm quite often to get pictures with dirty blades. So, I will show you again another one someday. And Newsteel, yes it is!!!! blade was found in LOMBOK ISLAND. I'll bring blade back to forum (of course cleaned condition) to respecting your opinion and all members in this forum. (I hope that blade come to my hand safe and nicely). GUYS, THANK YOU ALL

19th April 2007, 03:45 AM	#10
cahaya Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 49	[QUOTE=Alam] ....Pandawa Karno Tinanding....... Hai. Alam.... Pandawa means = 5 people (Wayang stories) , so if keris Pandawa Karno Tinanding must be 5 luk not 6 or 7 luk.... thanks Alam

20th April 2007, 04:20 AM	#13
cahaya Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 49	Hi..all you are correct pangeran datu

20th April 2007, 08:17 AM	#14
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	PANGERAN DATU, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORDS. THAT'S THIS FORUM ALL ABOUT!!! MY BIG JEMPOL RAISED UP HIGHER THAN MY HEAD FOR YOU. Is there any kos-kos an for rent near by your house PANGERAN DATU? THANKS bouwneack001.

21st April 2007, 10:04 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Very nice cleaning and etching job!

21st April 2007, 11:32 PM	#17
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Aaahhhh...that feels better, doesn't it? I strongly suspect that this keris has had alterations, especially after this cleaning where you can follow the pamor lines. That certainlt doesn't make it junk, but in my eyes it makes it less desirable than it would be in it's original dapur. Nice cleaning job.

22nd April 2007, 01:29 AM	#18
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	The lower quarter areas does seems modified. The two central grooves (kruwingan) seems to be... the pamor looks 'disturbed'. Probably some other dapur type before it is modified into a Karno Tinanding.

22nd April 2007, 02:34 AM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	The dapur as it appears now lacks a certain flow and harmony; the execution is not too impressive IMO.

22nd April 2007, 11:04 AM	#20
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Hi Alam, somehow I tought like you before in first moment I got this dirty blade's pics. (Honestly I'm not good in keris experience but most of my friends in Lombok does very much better than me in this subject). And then I dialed some mobile numbers to INDO for making sure about this keris being modified/added or not (also for me to learn). And Opinions of those numbers was IMPOSIBLE IF THERE ARE MODIFIED/ADDED KERIS IN 80 - 90 YEARS AGO JUST BECAUSE FOR TRADING KERIS. MODIFIED/ADDED KERIS IS JUST CAME UP ABOUT LESS THAN 25 YEARS AGO WHEN BOOMING OF KERISES TRADING IS STARTING. GUYS, once again.....I stil learn, those opinion above was just fresh from few DIALLED NUMBERS. And I'm sure ....I BELIEVED THEM (they are some good friends of me). No "CHEAT AND CHAT" in our relationship so far. GUYS, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING ENGLISH TEACHER FOR ME. NOW I'M OFTEN TO OPEN DICTIONARY AGAIN

22nd April 2007, 11:23 AM	#21
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Great job!!!! Just love this keris!!!!

22nd April 2007, 06:46 PM	#23
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Hi David, you might right. As I said, I'm not experience enought for this subject and stil want to learn about it. Anyway, price I bought just a bit more I guess for this one. Because this keris was my ordered to a friend and He probebly look around whole LOMBOK to find this keris. But it's oke. EXPERIENCE/EDUCATION about this subject is more important for me. Dave, price you asked? hhhhmmmmm hhmmmm hhhmmmmmm hhmm Oke, I'll tell you...BUT ssssssssttttt...don't tell to Rick,oke? (Rp 1,7 jt). But Now, I have to think sending cost + TAX !!! OHH!!!! OHHH!! HELP? OHH!!! MUNICH is eeeexxpensive Dave! ALAMAAAAAAAKKK................!!!!! INAAAAAAAKKKK........!!!!!!

22nd April 2007, 08:06 PM	#24
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Actually i wasn't really asking you exactly how much you paid for this keris, that would be rude. Instead i was suggesting that if you consider for yourself how much you paid that information might aid in determining whether this dapur is original or altered work. As for the taxes, i can certainly relate...but alas, there is not a damn thing we can do about them...Life, Death and Taxes...i am afraid there is little else...oh, and keris of course!

24th April 2007, 05:22 AM	#26
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Nice collection. Are these all yours or do they belong to your dealer friend?

24th April 2007, 06:52 PM	#27
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Hi Dave, some of them are flying already to their new owners. Some of them as I said, somewhere cross beautifull small villages in LOMBOK.

4th May 2007, 09:00 PM	#29
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Why did the Ganja not take the stain in the same way the rest of the blade did ? Possibly it is not made from the same forging ?

5th May 2007, 07:33 AM	#30
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Yes yes, you right Rick, It is possible of course and also I though same as your when first time I saw it. Rick, many time I saw this kind of blades in Lombok THAT the blade and gonjo is not same colour and even not same material of iron and here one of them (Pls see pic carrefully). And now come up 2 opinions of me. 1. It is possible that the gonjo is being added later on...(But not for keris trading for now,please). We saw together when blade stil dirty. 2. It could b A TREND for keris at that time in LOMBOK that blade and gonjo is not in same colour/material just to make a little diffrent than others. (Rick, just my opinion). I think, second reason is more I believed now. hmmm.... I wonder what Alan's opinion, Rick. The man knew the field. Rick, let me try to call him from his meditation's cave. He might want to come up. Ooops! I hope, I don't disturb him, otherwise bad dream come true. Hi Alan, How are you today? Attached Images Last edited by brekele; 5th May 2007 at 07:54 AM.