2nd Caucasian Kindjal for comment

Gavin Nugent · 20th May 2008, 08:03 AM

Found some time today to photograph the other Kindjal I have here.

Ex Butterfield and Butterfield

I welcome any comments including Jeff's if he is not gun shy now.

There is a collectors sticker on the rear of the piece stating it to be from Tiflis or Erevan, with a silver hilt and scabbard with bold Niello decoration, reverse of hilt and scabbard with neillo florals and faint remains of a signature, circa 1860.

I don't consider the craftsmanship...there's that word again..of the blade to be as good as the previous Kindjal but the rest of the piece does show superior craftsmanship. In a martial application though, this piece is not as quick from the scabbard or through the air or as comfortable in the hand? Is there a reason for this, is it purely a status/display piece?

There is an issue I wish to fix too, there is a collectors sicker that is over 10 years old and is stuck pretty good on the reverse. If I remove it, it will come away in pieces and I will need to use chemicals to clean the remainder off, will this effect the Neillo application?

regards

Gav

Henk · 20th May 2008, 07:27 PM

Gav,

Did you try a hairdryer?Let the hot air blow on the sticker for a while and it will come off very easily. No damage and no chemicals.

fernando · 20th May 2008, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

... In a martial application though, this piece is not as quick from the scabbard or through the air or as comfortable in the hand? Is there a reason for this, is it purely a status/display piece? ...

Well Gav,
It could be that, decoration and embelishment seldom imply efectiveness. It appears that operational weapons for field action often offer a plain look, whereas decorated items are for showing off ... be them luxury pieces used by rulers and other big shots in cerimonies or the like, or low profile stuff for souvenirs, either for tourists or for the boys to bring back home.
Fernando

ariel · 20th May 2008, 10:13 PM

Butterfield or not, I have an uneasy feeling about it.
The niello looks very fresh and remarkably intact: not a scratch, not a missing segment. Repousse has a feel of being stamped.
The wooden inserts ( handle) are light in colour. The incised lines at the tip of the scabbard are shiny and the edges look sharp. The blade has strange proportions and is too clean. The "buttons" on the back of the hilt are poorly flattened, very crude. Are there any markings?
I understand, of course, that photographs are not an ideal way to evaluate antique items, but..... It looks to me as if it hails from the same " workshop" as the first one.
Sorry, I am not enjoying bringing bad news....

ALEX · 21st May 2008, 12:03 AM

As always - very good observations Ariel. I completely agree.
Gav, I have a comment about the term "craftsmanship". It'd be deceiving to think of it in isolated manner, i.e. without detailed comparison of quality, technique, design, etc. To produce anything requires work, skills and effort. But as Ward said - one has to be critical of any item. Just because it looks like someone "worked" on it, does not mean much. Even if it looks good and wonderful... unless you know exactly what to look for... is irrelevant in terms of collectors value!!! One will be able to see the difference only by studying, handling and comparing as many pieces as possible.

CharlesS · 21st May 2008, 01:27 AM

I'm with Alex and Ariel on this one. Have bad feeling about it. The blade most especially looks to much like the new ones. The quality of the niello and silver work is suspect. Some more pics of the blade may answer the age question.

Hope I am wrong for freebooter's sake.

Lew · 21st May 2008, 05:30 AM

I'm with Ariel.

Looks more recent to me and the incised lines are pretty sloppy not something you would see on an older piece. Everything looks too fresh and new to me. Artzi has a number of older examples in his sold section here is one for comparison.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2601

Lew

Gavin Nugent · 21st May 2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Butterfield or not, I have an uneasy feeling about it.
The niello looks very fresh and remarkably intact: not a scratch, not a missing segment. Repousse has a feel of being stamped.
The wooden inserts ( handle) are light in colour. The incised lines at the tip of the scabbard are shiny and the edges look sharp. The blade has strange proportions and is too clean. The "buttons" on the back of the hilt are poorly flattened, very crude. Are there any markings?
I understand, of course, that photographs are not an ideal way to evaluate antique items, but..... It looks to me as if it hails from the same " workshop" as the first one.
Sorry, I am not enjoying bringing bad news....

Oh dear gents, glasses please, no offense taken or ment on my behalf.

I will have to go back to my old camera and with bad lighting and show all the losses of niello that there is much on the reverse, this in turn will also show the honest age patina that covers the silver and neillo and the chiseled releif. If I could get a good image of the cartouche to the rear that I have cleaned, there is a forgein script within it covering 4 lines that is now so rubbed, even if I knew the lingo, I do not think I would be able to read it, but it looks to be in the style of a presentation.
Same work shop Ariel, I will have to take a photo of them side by side for you too compare....ouch

The blade it is true has suffered a very bad clean I must say, that will be fixed, I know not of any wood that you mention either, what I see is only a coloured woven material that show genuine period age.
The scabbard, oh I wish you were sitting at my desk... I can see every chisel and incise very clearly, and there is not a single sharp edge to the acorn at the base, it a shame how the 3 dimensions that you have when holding a piece cannot be presented correctly in 2 dimensions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

As always - very good observations Ariel. I completely agree.
Gav, I have a comment about the term "craftsmanship". It'd be deceiving to think of it in isolated manner, i.e. without detailed comparison of quality, technique, design, etc. To produce anything requires work, skills and effort. But as Ward said - one has to be critical of any item. Just because it looks like someone "worked" on it, does not mean much. Even if it looks good and wonderful... unless you know exactly what to look for... is irrelevant in terms of collectors value!!! One will be able to see the difference only by studying, handling and comparing as many pieces as possible.

Absolutely Alex, I agree about comparrison and work verses craftsman ship, funny thing, I showed these to a Elderly Romanian gentleman today and not that it is any indication for you to go by but he was in awe of the kindjal posted in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I'm with Alex and Ariel on this one. Have bad feeling about it. The blade most especially looks to much like the new ones. The quality of the niello and silver work is suspect. Some more pics of the blade may answer the age question.

Hope I am wrong for freebooter's sake.

Heres hoping you can see more detail in the photos coming up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I'm with Ariel.

Looks more recent to me and the incised lines are pretty sloppy not something you would see on an older piece. Everything looks too fresh and new to me. Artzi has a number of older examples in his sold section here is one for comparison.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2601

Lew

Nice, and something that I would consider a lovely piece to have in my collection, especially the blade but not the best for comparision for "craftmanship" but like anything it is an opinion, although it is hallmarked I could point out a couple of faults with it that would ring true from previous words from others here about these pieces.
Please point out the sloppy lines you refer to Lew?

Gavin Nugent · 21st May 2008, 09:58 AM

Photos in natural light rather than having the piece backlit.

Photo 1, Shows the real age to the neillo on the backside of the scabbard which in reality does wear more than the front of any scabbard. One can clearly see the losses of the neillo, these losses are the base of 8 borders that surround the floral neillo on the reverse, only 4 remain perfect as does the floral arrangements, but this is all bar a little bit that remains of the other 4 borders.

Photo 2, One hundred times larger than it really is, one can plainly see that there are no sharp edges and that all the pattern has been chiseled.

In photo 3, if you look close you can see at the tip there is a small amount of pitting and delamination, the rest of the blade shows to be rubbed over with what I could only think to be "sandpaper". Over all it shows a warmer older feel in natural light.

Photo 4, Comparrison, do you really think they were made in the same place or time? If so, do tell more...

Photo 5,6 & 7, Showthe wonderful chiseled and cut releif that is found in the silver scabbard and hilt.

ALEX · 21st May 2008, 11:27 AM

Gav, to be critical of an item also means to be aware of methods and techniques used by "artists" to deliberately age their products, i.e. to make them look old. I observed scabbards being "worked" with metal chains and hammers to create an "old look". the acids and mechanical tears are very common to "age" the metal. Even stamps and punch marks can be "new". This is true not only for weapons, but for ANY antiquity!!! Also, it takes just weeks for patina to appear on silver, not even months:-) I have a solution which will "patina-age" the silver in 20 seconds!!! I am not just saying the kindjal is "brand new fake". It could be 5, 10, 20 years old. I am critical of it because I see some reasons to be.
I'd also suggest taking it to the experienced antique jeweler/dealer, and asking to look at it via magnifying glass. They usually can tell the age.

Gavin Nugent · 21st May 2008, 11:54 AM

Interesting Idea Alex, I know of a very good Hungarian jeweler who I will be travelling past tomorrow when I go to have a new tire put on the scooter, for now have a look at these 2 photos through a 10X jewelers loop I had handy.

There have been a couple of links to Oriental-arms for comparrisons, blades aside, I welcome those who have these in their collections to offer a few up for comparrision to point out what they think the exact differences are that seperate this piece from theirs???

Lew · 21st May 2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Please point out the sloppy lines you refer to Lew?

Down at the tip on the finale and just above that is an area that has crosshatching. The lines are crudely applied and seem uneven to me. I'm no expert in kindjals but I do have an excellent eye for detail and this caught my attention. The blade itself shows very little sign of age or use which also raises some flags to me. Gav I am not trying to put your kindjal down it is still a nicely made example for what it is. It takes years of research and handling older examples of any type of weapon to get a real feel for what is truly old and authentic and I have been burned a few times but you need to take it in stride and learn from the experience. As far as buying weapons from Butterfields or any other auction houses beware some of there appraisers have no clue what they are talking about I have seen them screw up big time.

Lew

Gavin Nugent · 22nd May 2008, 09:39 AM

It has been confirmed as authentic late 19th century piece most definitely and most very possibly earlier, 1860/70s.

The well known antique jeweller and watch maker was too amazed at the craftsmanship and precise handcut relief of this piece. He spent a good deal of time going over the entire piece and stated it to be of outstanding craftsmanship of the highest quality that would have taken a very very long time to complete.

It was also confirmed by another elderly French gentleman whom he referred me and who owns a high end art gallery here in Brisbane. He has an amazing knowledge of antique arms and is also a collector of fine 14th century to very early 19th century European and Japanese arms of which he is giving me the privilege to view for a few hours next Tuesday before his gallery doors open. Quite a joy for me as I will be able to talk to him about other parts of my personal collection other than weaponry. His personal choice does not include weapons post 1820 as his view is that the era past this point was vastly machine made weapons with notable exceptions.

It has been suggested too by this collector that I invest in a UV light. I have not heard of this ever mentioned in this forum anywhere but he seems to think with a good UV light and some time I should be able to see the rubbed script in the cartouche to the rear of the scabbard. It will reveal in more detail, the threads in the scabbard throat and in the hilt which was mistaken for wood too.... and I thought UV was reserved for stamp collectors. A rubbing too will be done of this to see what it reveals.

I will also be returning to the Jeweller that afternoon to have the quality of silver tested for records sake, in the mean time I will soak the collectors sticker off the back as it does so detract further from the beauty.

All the best chaps, feel free to continue with your thoughts and postings on this piece I am intrigued.

regards

Gav

David · 22nd May 2008, 03:52 PM

Congratuations Gav. I am glad that you finally got the "expert" assessment that you have been wanting on this piece. Funny thing about "experts"....if we look long enough we will always be able to find one that will tell us what we want to hear. I am not trying to say that you latest "expert" is not absolutely correct. He may well be. Personally i know nothing about these knives and to me it looks quite nice. But as someone who has spent a lot of time collecting and learning about keris i have discovered that things are not always what they appear to be and sometimes people deliberately create things to deceive. Not necessarily the case here, but always a possibility.
Many of the people on this forum who have taken the time to try to answer your questions about this piece have a great deal of combined knowledge about these knives. Some have made it their specialty. Doesn't mean they are right about your kindjal either, but they didn't have to respond to your post, they have done so with good will in the spirit of collecting and sharing knowledge. You might do youself well not to alienate an entire community of knowledgeable collectors just because you found an expert who told you what you wanted to hear.

fernando · 22nd May 2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

...if we look long enough we will always be able to find one that will tell us what we want to hear ...

So true, David

Lew · 22nd May 2008, 04:55 PM

"The well known antique jeweller and watch maker"

Tell me Gav did you ask this expert how many kindjal has he handled in his career? I have an old gentleman down the street from where I work who is also an expert jeweler and watch maker since 1940 but I don't think he knows much about kindjals? I would not ask a dentist to give me his opinion on my cardiogram I would seek out a cardiologist.

Lew

fernando · 22nd May 2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

"The well known antique jeweller and watch maker"

Tell me Gav did you ask this expert how many kindjal has he handled in his career? I have an old gentleman down the street from where I work who is also an expert jeweler and watch maker since 1940 but I don't think he knows much about kindjals? I would not ask a dentist to give me his opinion on my cardiogram I would seek out a cardiologist.

Lew

When you don't have a dog, you hunt with a cat

. On the other hand, a certain person may be able to grade a determined silver work, from simply stamped to thouroughly chased, whereas not necessarily knowing how to grade a kinzhal per se

.
... Just my humble opinnion, Lew.
Fernando

Lew · 22nd May 2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

When you don't have a dog, you hunt with a cat

. On the other hand, a certain person may be able to grade a determined silver work, from simply stamped to thouroughly chased, whereas not necessarily knowing how to grade a kinzhal per se

.
... Just my humble opinnion, Lew.
Fernando

Fernando

I am sure there are modern silversmiths who do masterful work but you need to look at the object as a whole and not through a jewelers lupe.

Lew

Norman McCormick · 22nd May 2008, 07:20 PM

Hello,
My initial reaction to the 'Kindjal' posts was not to get involved in something I was not familiar with nor to get involved in the subsequent "toing and froing". I do feel, although this may alienate me from some of the Forum, that the entire tone of this debate was set at the very beginning of the first post with a less than necessary remark with regard to the skill level of the Kindjal maker. It seems to me only polite and courteous to give your opinion in a gracious and friendly manner in the knowledge that the recipient has spent good money and may be in some occasions without the necessary knowledge to fully understand what they have purchased good or not so good, after all that is why they have posted in the first place, to accrue the knowledge to facilitate their collecting bug. I am always disappointed when short one sentence answers are given, usually negative, without the courtesy of a Dear so and so, Hi so and so etc., and are finished without a Regards so and so etc. Having said all this I am grateful for the knowledge base present in this Forum I just wish those with a greater degree of this knowledge would be a bit more tolerant of folks with more run of the mill aspirations with regard to their collections, after all most of us have fiscal constraints that preclude us from purchasing bits with the 'wow factor' although we may turn up with one occasionally with luck and a bit of that 'Knowledge'. This reply is aimed at no one in particular and everyone in general. Please remember most of us do this for pleasure and not for gain and our communication with each other should be pleasurable also, even if the opinion given is not what the recipient would prefer to hear but an honest answer given honestly but always with courtesy.
Regards,
Norman.

TVV · 22nd May 2008, 08:19 PM

For myself, I have always thought that every time I post an item for discussion in this forum and ask for opinion from the other members here, I have to be willing to accept or at least consider their comments, even if said comments may not be what I have hoped to read for the item in question. If I am unwilling to consider any opinion different from my own, why even bother posting here and asking, unless I am merely looking for a pat on the back?

Regards,
Teodor

ward · 22nd May 2008, 08:58 PM

I am sorry Norman that my messages seem kurt. I answer a lot of emails and questions a day. I am not trying to be impolite it is just my nature. I would rather see a collector buy simpler honest old pieces than fancy reproduction or tourist pieces. I see no reason to suger coat a response and give false hope to someone. The piece stands on its own or does not.

Lew · 22nd May 2008, 09:42 PM

Norman

Some of our fellow formites are advanced collectors in there respected areas such as in Eastern European,South East Asian,Indo Persian and African weapons so when I post something that I am not sure of I am looking for their honest unbiased opinion. So if I bought something that later turns out to be not what I originally hope for than I take it with a grain of salt and move on. I feel if several individuals with one hundred plus years of combined collecting expertise in a given area tell me something I should listen. Yes I agree sometimes they can be a bit blunt but there is a saying "If it looks like a duck walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck". I generally stay away from Chinese and Eastern European items due to the fact that they have become a cottage industry in some the mother countries and the replicas though traditionally made are becoming harder to differentiate from the old ones.

Regards,

Lew

Norman McCormick · 22nd May 2008, 10:20 PM

Hi Teodor,
I am in absolute agreement that the very act of posting an item is to invite constructive criticism and that if you do not want to hear or acknowledge that your item may or may not be what you had hoped then don't post. On the other hand comments and opinions can be proffered with tact and understanding and need not be in any way derisory or demeaning to get over a point.
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Ward,
Having mentioned no names you are obviously aware that your responses are short and to the point, I wouldn't say curt. First may I say that I am grateful that you have taken the time and effort to respond and give your opinion on some of my pieces, you are obviously knowledgeable and I do appreciate the imparting of said knowledge. I wouldn't expect you to give false hope and to be fair I never suggested anywhere that you or anyone else should tell anybody anything other than your honest opinion. I am probably behind the times with regard to the beginning and ending of replies, my daughter tells me I'm a dinosaur and that this is for letter writing and not the net, I am retired and have time for the niceties and so will stick with them. The most important thing is the common interest we all share the posters and repliers for without them there would be no Forum.
Regards,
Norman.

Tim Simmons · 22nd May 2008, 10:55 PM

To fight your corner here, you really have to be sure or know your interest, and do the research. The mysterious "rightness" in one item is completely different in another. All collectors have struggled with this sort of work at one time or another.
The items in question are indeed better than many "right" stuff I have seen that I am sure are not apprentice work due to location and time frame. All adding to the difficulties, just that these do not appear to be truly old.
Auction houses some better than others, are only expert in selling!!!!!!!!!

Most often thier knowledge is only based on the price an object made at the last same category of sales whether they knew anything about it or not. They are salespeople only, lets drink there mini bar

.

David · 22nd May 2008, 11:05 PM

Norman, i certainly agree that it is important that we all respond to one another in a civil and understanding manner. That said, having followed these 2 kindjal threads, i do not see anywhere that any member was uncivil with Gavin.
As for remarks made about the skill level of the creator of any piece, unless i made it myself, or my father, uncle or grandfather was the craftsman, i see no reason whatsoever to take offense. We should be able to separate ourselves from the things we collect and i should hope that criticism of my knife is not criticism of me.

Norman McCormick · 22nd May 2008, 11:14 PM

Hi Lew,
Agreed, there is a vast resource of knowledge here and it is a pleasure and a privilege to be able to tap that resource at will. As to experts, along with their expertise comes a certain blase approach to lesser specimens of the genre, weapons I mean not people, this is to be understood, I am an an expert of sorts, a professional photographer for forty years, anything less than 5x4 is a miniature format camera to me. Usually when someone finds out my ex profession out come the holiday photographs or the tired old S.L.R. from the cupboard but I have to say I have never been unnecessarily blunt or short but neither have I given them false hope that "Yes you could be the next, insert name of famous photographer of your choice, honest you really could!" Everyone of you are correct in that honesty and candour should never be sacrificed but neither should sensitivity and understanding.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. Yes, I think you have to be particularly sharp, pardon the pun, to enter the Chinese antique market.

David · 22nd May 2008, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

I am an an expert of sorts, a professional photographer for forty years, anything less than 5x4 is a miniature format camera to me.

That's funny Norm, i've been a pro shooter for more than 30 years now and have always considered anything larger than 2 1/4 as those unnecessarily large format cameras.

ward · 22nd May 2008, 11:42 PM

getting back to the original post. Either you see the differece between this piece in workmanship style and form and a 19th century piece or you do not. If you are happy with the piece fine otherwise move on. I personally feel the piece was made somewhere between 1950-1990.

Norman McCormick · 22nd May 2008, 11:44 PM

Hi Tim,
I have seen many things described incorrectly at auction houses and agreed just because they say it is so does not make it necessarily so, see the disclaimer. As to the "rightness" factor I believe this can only be determined absolutely, if there is any doubt, by handling the object in question indeed the only times I have bought a pup, several in fact, was over the net with only photographs to guide me. Kindjals are not my area of interest or knowledge, although I would not pass up the opportunity to acquire a nice one given the chance, therefore I am not defending Gav's notions of the "rightness" of his acquisitions I was only concerned that some responses were a bit insensitive.
We are all different and perhaps what one person finds insensitive others do not, each to their own I guess is the only answer.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 22nd May 2008, 11:48 PM

Hi David,
As I said in the previous post, each to their own. You'll be telling me next that glass plates are a thing of the past.
Regards,
Norman.

20th May 2008, 08:03 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	2nd Caucasian Kindjal for comment Found some time today to photograph the other Kindjal I have here. Ex Butterfield and Butterfield I welcome any comments including Jeff's if he is not gun shy now. There is a collectors sticker on the rear of the piece stating it to be from Tiflis or Erevan, with a silver hilt and scabbard with bold Niello decoration, reverse of hilt and scabbard with neillo florals and faint remains of a signature, circa 1860. I don't consider the craftsmanship...there's that word again..of the blade to be as good as the previous Kindjal but the rest of the piece does show superior craftsmanship. In a martial application though, this piece is not as quick from the scabbard or through the air or as comfortable in the hand? Is there a reason for this, is it purely a status/display piece? There is an issue I wish to fix too, there is a collectors sicker that is over 10 years old and is stuck pretty good on the reverse. If I remove it, it will come away in pieces and I will need to use chemicals to clean the remainder off, will this effect the Neillo application? regards Gav Attached Images

21st May 2008, 09:58 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Further photos Photos in natural light rather than having the piece backlit. Photo 1, Shows the real age to the neillo on the backside of the scabbard which in reality does wear more than the front of any scabbard. One can clearly see the losses of the neillo, these losses are the base of 8 borders that surround the floral neillo on the reverse, only 4 remain perfect as does the floral arrangements, but this is all bar a little bit that remains of the other 4 borders. Photo 2, One hundred times larger than it really is, one can plainly see that there are no sharp edges and that all the pattern has been chiseled. In photo 3, if you look close you can see at the tip there is a small amount of pitting and delamination, the rest of the blade shows to be rubbed over with what I could only think to be "sandpaper". Over all it shows a warmer older feel in natural light. Photo 4, Comparrison, do you really think they were made in the same place or time? If so, do tell more... Photo 5,6 & 7, Showthe wonderful chiseled and cut releif that is found in the silver scabbard and hilt. Attached Images

21st May 2008, 11:54 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting Idea Interesting Idea Alex, I know of a very good Hungarian jeweler who I will be travelling past tomorrow when I go to have a new tire put on the scooter, for now have a look at these 2 photos through a 10X jewelers loop I had handy. There have been a couple of links to Oriental-arms for comparrisons, blades aside, I welcome those who have these in their collections to offer a few up for comparrision to point out what they think the exact differences are that seperate this piece from theirs??? Attached Images

22nd May 2008, 09:39 AM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A genuine work of art. It has been confirmed as authentic late 19th century piece most definitely and most very possibly earlier, 1860/70s. The well known antique jeweller and watch maker was too amazed at the craftsmanship and precise handcut relief of this piece. He spent a good deal of time going over the entire piece and stated it to be of outstanding craftsmanship of the highest quality that would have taken a very very long time to complete. It was also confirmed by another elderly French gentleman whom he referred me and who owns a high end art gallery here in Brisbane. He has an amazing knowledge of antique arms and is also a collector of fine 14th century to very early 19th century European and Japanese arms of which he is giving me the privilege to view for a few hours next Tuesday before his gallery doors open. Quite a joy for me as I will be able to talk to him about other parts of my personal collection other than weaponry. His personal choice does not include weapons post 1820 as his view is that the era past this point was vastly machine made weapons with notable exceptions. It has been suggested too by this collector that I invest in a UV light. I have not heard of this ever mentioned in this forum anywhere but he seems to think with a good UV light and some time I should be able to see the rubbed script in the cartouche to the rear of the scabbard. It will reveal in more detail, the threads in the scabbard throat and in the hilt which was mistaken for wood too.... and I thought UV was reserved for stamp collectors. A rubbing too will be done of this to see what it reveals. I will also be returning to the Jeweller that afternoon to have the quality of silver tested for records sake, in the mean time I will soak the collectors sticker off the back as it does so detract further from the beauty. All the best chaps, feel free to continue with your thoughts and postings on this piece I am intrigued. regards Gav Last edited by freebooter; 22nd May 2008 at 12:13 PM.

20th May 2008, 07:27 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Gav, Did you try a hairdryer?Let the hot air blow on the sticker for a while and it will come off very easily. No damage and no chemicals.

20th May 2008, 10:13 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Butterfield or not, I have an uneasy feeling about it. The niello looks very fresh and remarkably intact: not a scratch, not a missing segment. Repousse has a feel of being stamped. The wooden inserts ( handle) are light in colour. The incised lines at the tip of the scabbard are shiny and the edges look sharp. The blade has strange proportions and is too clean. The "buttons" on the back of the hilt are poorly flattened, very crude. Are there any markings? I understand, of course, that photographs are not an ideal way to evaluate antique items, but..... It looks to me as if it hails from the same " workshop" as the first one. Sorry, I am not enjoying bringing bad news....

21st May 2008, 12:03 AM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	As always - very good observations Ariel. I completely agree. Gav, I have a comment about the term "craftsmanship". It'd be deceiving to think of it in isolated manner, i.e. without detailed comparison of quality, technique, design, etc. To produce anything requires work, skills and effort. But as Ward said - one has to be critical of any item. Just because it looks like someone "worked" on it, does not mean much. Even if it looks good and wonderful... unless you know exactly what to look for... is irrelevant in terms of collectors value!!! One will be able to see the difference only by studying, handling and comparing as many pieces as possible.

21st May 2008, 01:27 AM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I'm with Alex and Ariel on this one. Have bad feeling about it. The blade most especially looks to much like the new ones. The quality of the niello and silver work is suspect. Some more pics of the blade may answer the age question. Hope I am wrong for freebooter's sake.

21st May 2008, 05:30 AM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I'm with Ariel. Looks more recent to me and the incised lines are pretty sloppy not something you would see on an older piece. Everything looks too fresh and new to me. Artzi has a number of older examples in his sold section here is one for comparison. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2601 Lew

21st May 2008, 11:27 AM	#10
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Gav, to be critical of an item also means to be aware of methods and techniques used by "artists" to deliberately age their products, i.e. to make them look old. I observed scabbards being "worked" with metal chains and hammers to create an "old look". the acids and mechanical tears are very common to "age" the metal. Even stamps and punch marks can be "new". This is true not only for weapons, but for ANY antiquity!!! Also, it takes just weeks for patina to appear on silver, not even months:-) I have a solution which will "patina-age" the silver in 20 seconds!!! I am not just saying the kindjal is "brand new fake". It could be 5, 10, 20 years old. I am critical of it because I see some reasons to be. I'd also suggest taking it to the experienced antique jeweler/dealer, and asking to look at it via magnifying glass. They usually can tell the age.

22nd May 2008, 03:52 PM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Congratuations Gav. I am glad that you finally got the "expert" assessment that you have been wanting on this piece. Funny thing about "experts"....if we look long enough we will always be able to find one that will tell us what we want to hear. I am not trying to say that you latest "expert" is not absolutely correct. He may well be. Personally i know nothing about these knives and to me it looks quite nice. But as someone who has spent a lot of time collecting and learning about keris i have discovered that things are not always what they appear to be and sometimes people deliberately create things to deceive. Not necessarily the case here, but always a possibility. Many of the people on this forum who have taken the time to try to answer your questions about this piece have a great deal of combined knowledge about these knives. Some have made it their specialty. Doesn't mean they are right about your kindjal either, but they didn't have to respond to your post, they have done so with good will in the spirit of collecting and sharing knowledge. You might do youself well not to alienate an entire community of knowledgeable collectors just because you found an expert who told you what you wanted to hear.

22nd May 2008, 04:55 PM	#16
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	"The well known antique jeweller and watch maker" Tell me Gav did you ask this expert how many kindjal has he handled in his career? I have an old gentleman down the street from where I work who is also an expert jeweler and watch maker since 1940 but I don't think he knows much about kindjals? I would not ask a dentist to give me his opinion on my cardiogram I would seek out a cardiologist. Lew

22nd May 2008, 07:20 PM	#19
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hello, My initial reaction to the 'Kindjal' posts was not to get involved in something I was not familiar with nor to get involved in the subsequent "toing and froing". I do feel, although this may alienate me from some of the Forum, that the entire tone of this debate was set at the very beginning of the first post with a less than necessary remark with regard to the skill level of the Kindjal maker. It seems to me only polite and courteous to give your opinion in a gracious and friendly manner in the knowledge that the recipient has spent good money and may be in some occasions without the necessary knowledge to fully understand what they have purchased good or not so good, after all that is why they have posted in the first place, to accrue the knowledge to facilitate their collecting bug. I am always disappointed when short one sentence answers are given, usually negative, without the courtesy of a Dear so and so, Hi so and so etc., and are finished without a Regards so and so etc. Having said all this I am grateful for the knowledge base present in this Forum I just wish those with a greater degree of this knowledge would be a bit more tolerant of folks with more run of the mill aspirations with regard to their collections, after all most of us have fiscal constraints that preclude us from purchasing bits with the 'wow factor' although we may turn up with one occasionally with luck and a bit of that 'Knowledge'. This reply is aimed at no one in particular and everyone in general. Please remember most of us do this for pleasure and not for gain and our communication with each other should be pleasurable also, even if the opinion given is not what the recipient would prefer to hear but an honest answer given honestly but always with courtesy. Regards, Norman.

22nd May 2008, 08:19 PM	#20
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	For myself, I have always thought that every time I post an item for discussion in this forum and ask for opinion from the other members here, I have to be willing to accept or at least consider their comments, even if said comments may not be what I have hoped to read for the item in question. If I am unwilling to consider any opinion different from my own, why even bother posting here and asking, unless I am merely looking for a pat on the back? Regards, Teodor

22nd May 2008, 08:58 PM	#21
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I am sorry Norman that my messages seem kurt. I answer a lot of emails and questions a day. I am not trying to be impolite it is just my nature. I would rather see a collector buy simpler honest old pieces than fancy reproduction or tourist pieces. I see no reason to suger coat a response and give false hope to someone. The piece stands on its own or does not.

22nd May 2008, 09:42 PM	#22
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Norman Some of our fellow formites are advanced collectors in there respected areas such as in Eastern European,South East Asian,Indo Persian and African weapons so when I post something that I am not sure of I am looking for their honest unbiased opinion. So if I bought something that later turns out to be not what I originally hope for than I take it with a grain of salt and move on. I feel if several individuals with one hundred plus years of combined collecting expertise in a given area tell me something I should listen. Yes I agree sometimes they can be a bit blunt but there is a saying "If it looks like a duck walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a duck". I generally stay away from Chinese and Eastern European items due to the fact that they have become a cottage industry in some the mother countries and the replicas though traditionally made are becoming harder to differentiate from the old ones. Regards, Lew

22nd May 2008, 10:20 PM	#23
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Teodor, I am in absolute agreement that the very act of posting an item is to invite constructive criticism and that if you do not want to hear or acknowledge that your item may or may not be what you had hoped then don't post. On the other hand comments and opinions can be proffered with tact and understanding and need not be in any way derisory or demeaning to get over a point. Regards, Norman. Hi Ward, Having mentioned no names you are obviously aware that your responses are short and to the point, I wouldn't say curt. First may I say that I am grateful that you have taken the time and effort to respond and give your opinion on some of my pieces, you are obviously knowledgeable and I do appreciate the imparting of said knowledge. I wouldn't expect you to give false hope and to be fair I never suggested anywhere that you or anyone else should tell anybody anything other than your honest opinion. I am probably behind the times with regard to the beginning and ending of replies, my daughter tells me I'm a dinosaur and that this is for letter writing and not the net, I am retired and have time for the niceties and so will stick with them. The most important thing is the common interest we all share the posters and repliers for without them there would be no Forum. Regards, Norman.

22nd May 2008, 10:55 PM	#24
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	To fight your corner here, you really have to be sure or know your interest, and do the research. The mysterious "rightness" in one item is completely different in another. All collectors have struggled with this sort of work at one time or another. The items in question are indeed better than many "right" stuff I have seen that I am sure are not apprentice work due to location and time frame. All adding to the difficulties, just that these do not appear to be truly old. Auction houses some better than others, are only expert in selling!!!!!!!!! Most often thier knowledge is only based on the price an object made at the last same category of sales whether they knew anything about it or not. They are salespeople only, lets drink there mini bar .

22nd May 2008, 11:05 PM	#25
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Norman, i certainly agree that it is important that we all respond to one another in a civil and understanding manner. That said, having followed these 2 kindjal threads, i do not see anywhere that any member was uncivil with Gavin. As for remarks made about the skill level of the creator of any piece, unless i made it myself, or my father, uncle or grandfather was the craftsman, i see no reason whatsoever to take offense. We should be able to separate ourselves from the things we collect and i should hope that criticism of my knife is not criticism of me.

22nd May 2008, 11:14 PM	#26
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Lew, Agreed, there is a vast resource of knowledge here and it is a pleasure and a privilege to be able to tap that resource at will. As to experts, along with their expertise comes a certain blase approach to lesser specimens of the genre, weapons I mean not people, this is to be understood, I am an an expert of sorts, a professional photographer for forty years, anything less than 5x4 is a miniature format camera to me. Usually when someone finds out my ex profession out come the holiday photographs or the tired old S.L.R. from the cupboard but I have to say I have never been unnecessarily blunt or short but neither have I given them false hope that "Yes you could be the next, insert name of famous photographer of your choice, honest you really could!" Everyone of you are correct in that honesty and candour should never be sacrificed but neither should sensitivity and understanding. Regards, Norman. P.S. Yes, I think you have to be particularly sharp, pardon the pun, to enter the Chinese antique market.

22nd May 2008, 11:42 PM	#28
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	getting back to the original post. Either you see the differece between this piece in workmanship style and form and a 19th century piece or you do not. If you are happy with the piece fine otherwise move on. I personally feel the piece was made somewhere between 1950-1990.

22nd May 2008, 11:44 PM	#29
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Tim, I have seen many things described incorrectly at auction houses and agreed just because they say it is so does not make it necessarily so, see the disclaimer. As to the "rightness" factor I believe this can only be determined absolutely, if there is any doubt, by handling the object in question indeed the only times I have bought a pup, several in fact, was over the net with only photographs to guide me. Kindjals are not my area of interest or knowledge, although I would not pass up the opportunity to acquire a nice one given the chance, therefore I am not defending Gav's notions of the "rightness" of his acquisitions I was only concerned that some responses were a bit insensitive. We are all different and perhaps what one person finds insensitive others do not, each to their own I guess is the only answer. Regards, Norman.

22nd May 2008, 11:48 PM	#30
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi David, As I said in the previous post, each to their own. You'll be telling me next that glass plates are a thing of the past. Regards, Norman.