Serbian Kraishnik or Beduin Shashka?

ariel · 7th July 2007, 10:38 PM

Some time ago, Miyamoto taught me ( and all of us) that a sword I, in my ignorance, thought was Beduin, was in fact from the Balkans.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=beduin+sword
Here is my new arrival, and I hope that is exactly what he had in mind.
There are 2 swords on the first 2 pics: a typical Beduin from Negev/Sinai on top, and the newbie on the bottom. Superficially, they look quite similar, especially the handles.
But there are major differences: the newbie has much more carefully defined handle, better decoration, straight ed single-edged blade with multiple " caucasian-type" incised motives, the blade is unsharpened for the first 2/3 of its length, the fittings are very much European, and each is hallmarked "P.V."
This in NOT a primitive Beduin work!
I think this is exactly the sword described by Miyamoto, from Voina Kraina!!!
Questions:
- is my attribution reasonable?
- what is the age of the sword?
- what is its true origin? (purely local? influenced by the Caucasus?)
- have you ever seen a sword with such a "hyper-Indian" ricasso?
- is the blade local or imported?/
- any info on who or what might be P.V.?

Joe · 8th July 2007, 04:52 AM

Does your new sword have a square tip?

Also, what are its dimensions?

ariel · 8th July 2007, 05:27 AM

This is embarrassing: I do need new glasses...
No, it is not a Burmese Dha: look at the new pic.
The sword is 34 " total: 29" blade and 5" handle. the blade is 1" wide and 3/16" thck

Joe · 8th July 2007, 07:13 AM

Ah, I see. It was the shape of the chape that made me suspicious.

Anyway, very nice sword. That handle looks quite peculiar, but I like it. How does it feel in the hand?

RSWORD · 8th July 2007, 01:33 PM

In looking at the markings on the blade with the intermittent S curve and other marking, the other marking looks familiar to me. Have I not seen this marking on some Bosnian dagger blades?

Marc · 8th July 2007, 05:57 PM

Well, Rick, maybe you have seen them in a recent thread that dealt with a totally different subject... but that ended up showing some blades that might now look familiar, HERE, please scroll down to the last couple of posts.

The hilt of the so-called "filipino military machetes" is quite characteristic, and different than the case that ariel is showing, but over the years I've seen enough variations on those to not to take anything for granted. The blade was also the subject of some variation, specially regarding the point, but this decoration was something quite characteristic. The flat-ended scabbards are somewhat characteristic, as well. These were non-regular military swords, privately purchased and consequently featuring a wide range of variation, but the drag at the end of the scabbard’s chape should in this case be something to consider as well.

I’m afraid I don’t have enough graphic documentation to support this case as strongly as I would like, but at least I’ll try to I’ll leave you some examples for your consideration.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2007, 07:13 PM

Brilliantly done Marc!!!!

As I first looked at these two swords, I could see the similarity described in some degree in the assymetrical projection of the pommel, with the Bedouin form carved and the lower section of grip paralleling it. The same general feel for the second sword comes from that projecting pommel.

It is amazing that you were able to recognize that motif from such a completely different cultural sphere than those being discussed! When Rick noted he had seen the motif, I had been thinking much the same, but could not place it. When I saw your photos of the 'Filipino' sword I instantly recalled a sword I have seen of that same type with the characteristic exaggerated finger stalls in the grip, and the curious notched shape of the pommel. The one I had seen carried the same linear application of motif on the blade, deeply incised, but with only the 'lazy S' character, it was not alternately marked with the other geometric combination.

The example I am describing was considered Spanish colonial and as having been found in Monterrey, Mexico, however subsequent research revealed that these had been in noticeable quantity as 'bring backs' from Cuba during the Spanish American War. I have also seen them described remarkably, though questionably, as Algerian.
It would seem that these deeply fingerstalled grip, guardless swords are indeed ersatz civilian weapons that derive from the Spanish Colonial sphere, which included vast ports of call from the Maghreb, through Cuba, Mexico and the Philippines.

Ruturning to Ariels sword, the question of course becomes, what could be the explanation for such motif seemingly well known on Spanish colonial weapons appearing on a weapon presumed from Balkan regions. The association between Arab weapons and Spanish weapons has of course been historically constant, and it would seem that a motif that occurs on Spanish weapons may well appear on an Arab weapon such as those used by the Bedouin. However, it is of course important to consider which tribes and geographic regions would be applicable.

While Ariels new addition is clearly much more refined than the Bedouin example with the standard trade blade, it is still a quite workmanlike weapon, even with the steel pommel collar and the bolster at the end of the grip.
With the key association to the motif on the blade, it would seem that the Spanish assessment may well apply, but it does not seem these blades were lent to trade, so direct connection to the Bedouin, especially as far east as the Sinai may be unlikely. The Balkan connection may be even more difficult to establish, but with the typical diffusion of trade and geopolitical diaspora, who knows!!!

All points to consider, but as always.....more research to be done!

Thank you again for the importantly placed illustrations establishing that motif!!

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 8th July 2007, 07:24 PM

Marc,
You seem to have killed the Balkan hypothesis. Kraishnik, R.I.P.

Do you think it still can be attributed to the early-mid 19th century? Do the swords you saw also have a non-sharpened edge for ~ 1/2 to 2/3 of their length?
What or who is P.V.?

ariel · 8th July 2007, 07:52 PM

I am throwing a curveball re. connections between Spanish-American and North African weapons.
Here is a typical North African Nimcha with the blade marked "Nueva Granada 1846"
Nueva Granada was a name for a Spanish colony in what is now Venezuela/Colombia. Seems the blade traveled quite a lot to end in Spanish Sahara or nearby.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2007, 08:01 PM

Latter 19th century most likely, since the markings discussed appear on Spanish colonial associated weapons of that period, do you agree Marc?

While close examination would most probably not support the idea, looking at these markings and the linear motif style remind me in some degree of the cuneiform type characters seen in Burton's references to the Assyrian sappara ("Book of the Sword" , 1884, p.207). It is interesting to note that the ancient Assyrian bronze sword Burton is referring to was purchased from a Bedouin at Nardin by a British officer. Though the actual motif on the line drawing of the sword is dissimilar to that on the swords we are discussing, the shapes seen in many cuneiform inscriptions are worth noting. Perhaps atavistic symbolism might have some consideration despite lack of geographic parity? Another curious note is that the inscibed characters on the bronze sword are also in motif on the back of the blade.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2007, 08:22 PM

Nicely placed curveball Ariel!!!

which illustrates well what I was saying about the Spanish-Arab connection. It is very interesting to see a South American marked blade on a nimcha though. The blade appears to be one of the German trade blades of heavy cutlass type shipped from Solingen in quantity during the 19th century. While the intended destination seems to have been to South America, perhaps it was detoured and never reached it. It is of course possible that the blade was mounted at one time and via the trade ships returned to the Maghreb and was remounted locally.

Marc · 9th July 2007, 10:05 AM

glad to have been of any help.

If you ask me, one of the most valuable resources of these fora is the fact of having so many people "in the field", with their own pool of "local" knowledge, so frequently unavailable to the international community just because no-one ever bothered to put it in a format accessible to us all.

Now, the questions...
Yes, 19th c, definitely, starting at some point in the first third and spanning to its end, when the colones were lost (1898). And, although I said these are normally attributed to the Philippines, truth is that I feel more comfortable with the label of just "colonial". I haven't seen any proof these were exclusively form the Philippines, this and the fact that there are some typologies of regulation machetes that are traditionally attributed to the Caribbean colonies, make me think that the exclusive attribution for these pieces could have been more a "consensual" thing (like a "these are colonial, the Caribbean ones are different, so these have to be for the Philippines" thing. Such is the way many typologies are born in the collectors world, I'm afraid...) than something really sustantiated. I have to check this more deeply, I know where to look at...

On the other hand, I would say that the "arab" influence in Spanish weaponry ended up much earlier than the time that we're dealing with here. I don't think we can look for such parallelism in this particular case... but the curveball can in fact be more curved than one might think. The Toledo Factory and the Spanish blade industry in general provided a lot of edged materila to the North-, Center- and South- American countries. Surplus and retired material, from Spain itself and from these countries ended up as trade goods about everywhere, with Africa being a specially good market, with Spanish presence in the actual Morocco being quite strong until mid-late 20th c.

ariel · 9th July 2007, 02:33 PM

So, you think that the Nimcha blade was actually made in Spain for Nueva Granada and not in Nueva Granada?

Marc · 11th July 2007, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

So, you think that the Nimcha blade was actually made in Spain for Nueva Granada and not in Nueva Granada?

In fact no, not really (I'm sorry, I had to post the last message in a hurry, and wasn't able to refine it as much as I would have liked). It would have surely been the case if an additional Spanish mark (normally one from the Toledo Factory) was to be found somewhere in the blade. Such mark could have been removed when adapting the blade to a new hilt... or not have been there at all, so we don't really know. Given the actual data, the more realistic thing would be to consider the blade FROM New Granada, and ending up, at the end, as an export item or a military surplus, in the African market for a new "life"...

7th July 2007, 10:38 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Serbian Kraishnik or Beduin Shashka? Some time ago, Miyamoto taught me ( and all of us) that a sword I, in my ignorance, thought was Beduin, was in fact from the Balkans. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=beduin+sword Here is my new arrival, and I hope that is exactly what he had in mind. There are 2 swords on the first 2 pics: a typical Beduin from Negev/Sinai on top, and the newbie on the bottom. Superficially, they look quite similar, especially the handles. But there are major differences: the newbie has much more carefully defined handle, better decoration, straight ed single-edged blade with multiple " caucasian-type" incised motives, the blade is unsharpened for the first 2/3 of its length, the fittings are very much European, and each is hallmarked "P.V." This in NOT a primitive Beduin work! I think this is exactly the sword described by Miyamoto, from Voina Kraina!!! Questions: - is my attribution reasonable? - what is the age of the sword? - what is its true origin? (purely local? influenced by the Caucasus?) - have you ever seen a sword with such a "hyper-Indian" ricasso? - is the blade local or imported?/ - any info on who or what might be P.V.? Attached Images

8th July 2007, 05:27 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This is embarrassing: I do need new glasses... No, it is not a Burmese Dha: look at the new pic. The sword is 34 " total: 29" blade and 5" handle. the blade is 1" wide and 3/16" thck Attached Images

8th July 2007, 05:57 PM	#6
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Well, Rick, maybe you have seen them in a recent thread that dealt with a totally different subject... but that ended up showing some blades that might now look familiar, HERE, please scroll down to the last couple of posts. The hilt of the so-called "filipino military machetes" is quite characteristic, and different than the case that ariel is showing, but over the years I've seen enough variations on those to not to take anything for granted. The blade was also the subject of some variation, specially regarding the point, but this decoration was something quite characteristic. The flat-ended scabbards are somewhat characteristic, as well. These were non-regular military swords, privately purchased and consequently featuring a wide range of variation, but the drag at the end of the scabbard’s chape should in this case be something to consider as well. I’m afraid I don’t have enough graphic documentation to support this case as strongly as I would like, but at least I’ll try to I’ll leave you some examples for your consideration. Attached Images

8th July 2007, 07:52 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am throwing a curveball re. connections between Spanish-American and North African weapons. Here is a typical North African Nimcha with the blade marked "Nueva Granada 1846" Nueva Granada was a name for a Spanish colony in what is now Venezuela/Colombia. Seems the blade traveled quite a lot to end in Spanish Sahara or nearby. Attached Images

8th July 2007, 04:52 AM	#2
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Does your new sword have a square tip? Also, what are its dimensions?

8th July 2007, 07:13 AM	#4
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Ah, I see. It was the shape of the chape that made me suspicious. Anyway, very nice sword. That handle looks quite peculiar, but I like it. How does it feel in the hand?

8th July 2007, 01:33 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	In looking at the markings on the blade with the intermittent S curve and other marking, the other marking looks familiar to me. Have I not seen this marking on some Bosnian dagger blades?

8th July 2007, 07:13 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Brilliantly done Marc!!!! As I first looked at these two swords, I could see the similarity described in some degree in the assymetrical projection of the pommel, with the Bedouin form carved and the lower section of grip paralleling it. The same general feel for the second sword comes from that projecting pommel. It is amazing that you were able to recognize that motif from such a completely different cultural sphere than those being discussed! When Rick noted he had seen the motif, I had been thinking much the same, but could not place it. When I saw your photos of the 'Filipino' sword I instantly recalled a sword I have seen of that same type with the characteristic exaggerated finger stalls in the grip, and the curious notched shape of the pommel. The one I had seen carried the same linear application of motif on the blade, deeply incised, but with only the 'lazy S' character, it was not alternately marked with the other geometric combination. The example I am describing was considered Spanish colonial and as having been found in Monterrey, Mexico, however subsequent research revealed that these had been in noticeable quantity as 'bring backs' from Cuba during the Spanish American War. I have also seen them described remarkably, though questionably, as Algerian. It would seem that these deeply fingerstalled grip, guardless swords are indeed ersatz civilian weapons that derive from the Spanish Colonial sphere, which included vast ports of call from the Maghreb, through Cuba, Mexico and the Philippines. Ruturning to Ariels sword, the question of course becomes, what could be the explanation for such motif seemingly well known on Spanish colonial weapons appearing on a weapon presumed from Balkan regions. The association between Arab weapons and Spanish weapons has of course been historically constant, and it would seem that a motif that occurs on Spanish weapons may well appear on an Arab weapon such as those used by the Bedouin. However, it is of course important to consider which tribes and geographic regions would be applicable. While Ariels new addition is clearly much more refined than the Bedouin example with the standard trade blade, it is still a quite workmanlike weapon, even with the steel pommel collar and the bolster at the end of the grip. With the key association to the motif on the blade, it would seem that the Spanish assessment may well apply, but it does not seem these blades were lent to trade, so direct connection to the Bedouin, especially as far east as the Sinai may be unlikely. The Balkan connection may be even more difficult to establish, but with the typical diffusion of trade and geopolitical diaspora, who knows!!! All points to consider, but as always.....more research to be done! Thank you again for the importantly placed illustrations establishing that motif!! All the best, Jim

8th July 2007, 07:24 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marc, You seem to have killed the Balkan hypothesis. Kraishnik, R.I.P. Do you think it still can be attributed to the early-mid 19th century? Do the swords you saw also have a non-sharpened edge for ~ 1/2 to 2/3 of their length? What or who is P.V.?

8th July 2007, 08:01 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Latter 19th century most likely, since the markings discussed appear on Spanish colonial associated weapons of that period, do you agree Marc? While close examination would most probably not support the idea, looking at these markings and the linear motif style remind me in some degree of the cuneiform type characters seen in Burton's references to the Assyrian sappara ("Book of the Sword" , 1884, p.207). It is interesting to note that the ancient Assyrian bronze sword Burton is referring to was purchased from a Bedouin at Nardin by a British officer. Though the actual motif on the line drawing of the sword is dissimilar to that on the swords we are discussing, the shapes seen in many cuneiform inscriptions are worth noting. Perhaps atavistic symbolism might have some consideration despite lack of geographic parity? Another curious note is that the inscibed characters on the bronze sword are also in motif on the back of the blade.

8th July 2007, 08:22 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Nicely placed curveball Ariel!!! which illustrates well what I was saying about the Spanish-Arab connection. It is very interesting to see a South American marked blade on a nimcha though. The blade appears to be one of the German trade blades of heavy cutlass type shipped from Solingen in quantity during the 19th century. While the intended destination seems to have been to South America, perhaps it was detoured and never reached it. It is of course possible that the blade was mounted at one time and via the trade ships returned to the Maghreb and was remounted locally.

9th July 2007, 10:05 AM	#12
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	glad to have been of any help. If you ask me, one of the most valuable resources of these fora is the fact of having so many people "in the field", with their own pool of "local" knowledge, so frequently unavailable to the international community just because no-one ever bothered to put it in a format accessible to us all. Now, the questions... Yes, 19th c, definitely, starting at some point in the first third and spanning to its end, when the colones were lost (1898). And, although I said these are normally attributed to the Philippines, truth is that I feel more comfortable with the label of just "colonial". I haven't seen any proof these were exclusively form the Philippines, this and the fact that there are some typologies of regulation machetes that are traditionally attributed to the Caribbean colonies, make me think that the exclusive attribution for these pieces could have been more a "consensual" thing (like a "these are colonial, the Caribbean ones are different, so these have to be for the Philippines" thing. Such is the way many typologies are born in the collectors world, I'm afraid...) than something really sustantiated. I have to check this more deeply, I know where to look at... On the other hand, I would say that the "arab" influence in Spanish weaponry ended up much earlier than the time that we're dealing with here. I don't think we can look for such parallelism in this particular case... but the curveball can in fact be more curved than one might think. The Toledo Factory and the Spanish blade industry in general provided a lot of edged materila to the North-, Center- and South- American countries. Surplus and retired material, from Spain itself and from these countries ended up as trade goods about everywhere, with Africa being a specially good market, with Spanish presence in the actual Morocco being quite strong until mid-late 20th c.

9th July 2007, 02:33 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	So, you think that the Nimcha blade was actually made in Spain for Nueva Granada and not in Nueva Granada?