New Keris Owner

[scatteredminds]

Hello everyone. I am a member of swordforum.com. I am new to sword ownership and someone at swordforum told me I needed to bring my problem here to be solved. My sister has lives in Jakarta, Indonesia for the past 10 years. On her most recent trip to canada she brought with her a sword she had purchased over there. Here is the brief but suspicious tale she told me. She was in a town called Yogajakarta, Indonesia. She had recently completed a tour of the palace and had seen several Keris'. When she asked the Palace security guard where she could purchase a keris for her brother in Canada the guard obliged her request by taking her and her translator back to his home in the village where she was shown some very nice blades. Upon choosing a keris to purchase, I am not certain as to the price she paid, the guard performed the following ceremony. He removed the keris from the sheath, put it onto it's tip, and proceeded to go into a "trance", while in this trance my sister said the keris stood upon ots tip without ais or support og anykind. The man blessing the sword did so for peace and harmony as my wife and I purchased a new home. The guard told my sister the blade was between 75-100 years old. Other people on the swordforum said the blade looks new. I would really appreciate any help you can give me regarding the quality of the keris, possible age verification, and spiritual qualities, i.e. good blade v.s. evil blade.

[Emanuel]

Haha! The Canadian Keris Club is growing!! Hello scatteredminds, welcome to this great forum. Nice keris, dapur brodjol I think and pamor kulit semangka? I have just barely started collecting, and my knowledge of keris is limited, so I can't tell how old this keris is. I'm sure the many seasoned collectors on this forum will provide plenty of info. I think they'll first ask for some more detailed pictures to ascertain the pamor on the blade. Could you also show the ukiran -handle?

Regards,
Emanuel

[Rick]

Hi Scattered ,
Welcome to the forum .
A couple of observations ; though the pictures you have submitted are kinda fuzzy and we would also love to see the ukiran (handle) .
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the pamor or pattern on the blade looks like wos wutah (scattered or strewn rice grains) which is a beneficial pamor pattern aka 'friendly' .
I'll go out on a limb and say that this is not an 'evil' keris .
The cross piece on the scabbard is of the gayaman form which is considered informal . Hard to tell about the pendok (metal sleeve on the scabbard) but I'm willing to guess that it is fairly new .
I think we'd all like to see some better pictures of the entire piece .

Now I'm thinking that if your Sis bought this from a palace guard it is most likely not the first one he has sold to visitors from other lands .

I think you'll find that there is always a story that accompanies every keris sold in Jawa . the idea is to purchase the keris rather than the story .

From what I can see (from the pictures) it looks like an average keris in quality ; age is hard to determine from photos .

Whatever it cost the money has been spent and at this point is of no account . The real question is whether you like it or not ; if you do then it was worth the price .

I hope you'll stick around and learn a little more about these fascinating cultural icons .

Best

Rick

[doecon]

Hi scattered

Welcome back again, I thought the "problem" was already solved on the swordforum In case you want serious opinions from people here, I recommend you take some better pictures first.

I agree with Rick, from a blurry distance it looks like scattered rice grains.
I sincerely hope its not a evil keris, but you never know Did you hear it rattle in the scabbard already? Some keris are said having those special powers.

In case you're looking for a value indication just check the closed items on eBay, you find plenty similar keris.

[scatteredminds]

Wow...thanks for all the encouraging help. And I really appreciate the [point about the money...it's spent and I love the keris. I am very excited to be part of this forum and I will stick around to sit at the feet of experts and learn a lot. My goal is to send you very detailed and clear pictures of the whole keris. As for my sister. She is a very savvy person who lived in the area for 10 years. She would have had her driver with her who would not have sent her to a tourist trap. She would have made sure the guard and the piece were true. And she absolutely saw the keris stand on it's tip without support. I love this place ! talk to you soon.

[nechesh]

I have a feeling that when we see a better picture of this keris the pamor might turn out to be "golden rain" or some variation there of.
I also doubt you've got an "evil" keris there.
If the keris pleases you very little else matters.

[Henk]

Welcome to the forum Scatteredminds.

I join the question for more and better pictures. First impression is a lovely keris and certainly not a tourist toy.
Aging a keris blade is very difficult, but 75 to 100 years is a very good possibility.

Pamor beras or wos wutah is at he moment the best guess but like Nechesh said who knows what we see on a sharp picture. The scabbard has wrangka gayaman, Yogjakarta style, the dress for daily use. If correct the ukiran is Yogjakarta style too.

Wished I had a sister coming up with such a keris.

[kai]

And she absolutely saw the keris stand on it's tip without support.

That's a very common stunt which can be reproduced with a little practise - more physics than magic involved here...

It seems like you're already hooked to the keris world - welcome! You'll find loads of info in the archives (don't overlook the old forum even though some pics are now missing).

Regards,
Kai

[scatteredminds]

I talked with my sister tonight. She told me the price she paid for the Keris. Either I have an unbelievable sword that is 100 years old and was worth the price or she got ripped off big time. I am in the process of getting some very clear pictures of all sections of the keris and will post them tomorrow. I have also emailed someone at a major university in my city to get some more help on this blade. I love the keris but $500.00u.s. is a lot to pay for a blade.

[Rick]

Here's my take on this .

The money has been spent ; you like the keris . Whether she was had or not is a moot point at this stage in the game .

Move past the money thing and concentrate on becoming an astute keris collector .

Also realise that she must love you a lot to drop five C's on a gift to make you happy.

[scatteredminds]

Your right Rick. Let the learning begin!

[Alam Shah]

Welcome scatteredminds, Like the rest of the gang, awaiting for clearer pictures.

Kai,
Afaik, blade standing on it's tip have 2 methods. The physics method, like you mentioned, balancing on its tip with no magic required and the esoteric method supposedly from horizontal position rising up to a vertical position.

Btw, congrats Kai on your new bahari... a lovely blade.

scatteredminds,
If your sister witnessed the esoteric method, then esoterically speaking, the blade might have been 'imbued' to enable it to stand. This is normally done to demonstrate that the blade had been given supernatural capabilities. Referenced from Bambang Hasrinuksmo's book, it is said that the so-called 'imbued power' might be for a specific purpose.

Now, for an example of the balancing act method, follow the link.
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Hope it helps. Btw, the keris looks like a good keris to me.

[kai]

Hello Alam Shah,

Afaik, blade standing on it's tip have 2 methods. The physics method, like you mentioned, balancing on its tip with no magic required and the esoteric method supposedly from horizontal position rising up to a vertical position.

So, has anyone of the esteemed forumites witnessed that esoteric method in action?

Btw, congrats Kai on your new bahari... a lovely blade.

Thanks! I'm kinda sorry that Adni and I were so close. (OTOH, I've been overbid by a few cents once...)

BTW, you also got a great deal on that MK patrem, I think... Please post pics once it arrives!

Regards,
Kai

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Alam Shah,
So, has anyone of the esteemed forumites witnessed that esoteric method in action?

Kai, even if i were to see the "esoteric" method performed i would remain highly skeptical. I have the pleasure of knowing a few good stage magicians. Any of them could easily accomplish this as an illustion with very little preparation.
Understand that i am a great believer in the esoteric and magick. But i have also seen an extraordinary amount of charlatans in this field. I am automatically wary of anyone who feels the need to do tricks with a keris to "prove" it's esoteric powers.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by kai

So, has anyone of the esteemed forumites witnessed that esoteric method in action?

Well, I haven't seen any. But then as Nechesh said, even if you have, it's still "remain highly skeptical". I will not ponder on the esoteric part...it's quite subjective. Let's ponder into the balancing aspect, it's quite interesting and fun.

BTW, you also got a great deal on that MK patrem, I think... Please post pics once it arrives!

Just collected it today. I guess it's a good deal. Will post it in a new thread. Something to ask.

Alam Shah

[sabertasche]

Ok guys, why would I want to balance my keris? This is the first time I've heard of this. What is the cutural/religious.mystical significance of this? I only have 1 keris in my collection. Although to my eyes it is a thing of beauty, I had not considered any mystical attributes. Should I??

Greg

[Rick]

Greg , I think that is a matter for each collector to decide on his own .

Either you believe or you don't .

Scattered ; waiting on those pics ....

[scatteredminds]

Here are some more pictures.

[scatteredminds]

Does anyone know I can/should clean the blade. I am such a newb that I am afraid I will damage the blade. Does anyone know someone in Winnipeg or Canada for that matter that does cleaning professionally. Sorry about the picture quality. My sons digital is not great. When I can find a better camera I will take more pictures.

[Rick]

The blade is fine .
The pictures ......... well
We really need to see the entire pattern on each side of the blade in focus .

For care of the blade ...
A little keris oil maybe ; no more than that for now .

BTW , if you're going to pursue your interest in keris please buy from reputable dealers rather than electronic auctions .

[doecon]

It doesnt really look as a 500USD, keris. I'm sorry. Its rather a common type, might be a bit older, but that doesnt make it special. As mentioned before, you can find some prices of similar pieces in the closed items section of eBay.

Just accept the fact that you have helped the "guard" to support his family and you did a good thing by stimulating local economy.

I agree with Rick, dont buy from just anyone offering you a keris. Especially not in a tourist area (of course).

Disagree about the online auctions, I think you have some very good offers on eBay from respectable sellers. But be carefull who you buy from.

[Alam Shah]

The fittings, hilt (or ukiran) and sheath (or warangka) is in Yogyakarta Gayaman form. As said before, for everyday use.

About the blade, the ganja area (the other piece, lower part of the blade), seems to have some age to it with some worn-down area. The ganja has Pamor Mas Kemambang, i think. I'm no expert.

Overall, a slightly above average piece in good condition.
A little oil to prevent rust would be sufficient for now.

doecon said...

It doesnt really look as a 500USD, keris. I'm sorry. Its rather a common type, might be a bit older, but that doesnt make it special. As mentioned before, you can find some prices of similar pieces in the closed items section of eBay.

No need to rub it in doecon... Why bother, checking the price for something that had been already paid for? Unless, as a reference for future purchases. Whether it is special or not is up to the owner. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Who are we to say. Keris collection is a matter of personal preference. If it is a gift from my sister, it is special to me all right. Or for that matter any gifts.

[A. G. Maisey]

Any keris that is a gift has a value beyond that of rubies.

It may never be sold.

Regretably the photos are little less than adequate to allow any appraisal, so at this time I wish to reserve comment, however, detailed inspection of the presentation of the pamor seems to indicate faint angular lines running across the pamor. It could well be that this blade carries pamor nginden, which would make it a scarce and desireable keris.

May I suggest that you try looking along the length of the blade from the handle end, and see if something like a pattern of shadows appearing as lines across the blade, or possibly "X"'s, can be seen.

[Alam Shah]

Greetings Mr Alan Maisey and a late welcome to the forum...
May we be enlightened by your knowledge in this field.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by doecon

It doesnt really look as a 500USD, keris. I'm sorry. Its rather a common type, might be a bit older, but that doesnt make it special. As mentioned before, you can find some prices of similar pieces in the closed items section of eBay.

The value/beauty of a keris/kris, be it intrinsic.... esoteric.... or exoteric. is in the eyes of the beholder.

A gift should be given special value. I have a keris that was sent/given to me by a total stranger whom I have never even met. While it may not have much value to others. it takes pride of place in my collection.

.... It may be of value to remember what gave rise to the term: 'White Elephant'....

[doecon]

Alan, Alam, of course one should appreciate gifts as they are. But IP himself seems to be rather eager to get estimated value (also on the swordforum), it wouldn’t be my first reaction as well, but then again my sister only brought me a t-shirt from her latest trip: )

I do however find it a bit odd that one (or ones sister) expects to find “treasures” in typical tourist areas. Yogjakarta “guards” do give regular keris-standing-performances and make additional income by selling keris to tourists (or to people that live in Jakarta for 10 years but travel with a translator (see IPs first post)). “Mister wanna buy keris?” is not an uncommon question for visitors in this area, some of the guards can even count perfectly in more then 10 languages, so go figure.

Maybe more experienced travelers are aware that you can’t easily find Faraotreasures in front of an Egyptian tourist station, or Incagold in your Yucatan resort, priceless ruby at the entrance of Thai temples. But for those that seriously think you can still find a priceless keris offered by a Jogya keraton guard, please think again.

I don’t want to rub anything in, but think its good to have some reality check.

Alan mentioned that it might be a keris of the Nginden class. I guess it’s not recommended to fuel any speculation in this direction. First it obviously isn’t anywhere near a Nginden keris and second, the guard, for sure, would have sold it for real prices if it was (they are being traded for al least 2500). I sympathize with IP (or his sister) having had one illusion already, so no need to create another one.

[Rick]

doecon , let's just drop the subject of whether the poster's Sister got 'taken' or not .
Further discussion of this aspect will no doubt annoy the hell out of me .

[Jeff D]

Hi scattered,

Here is my first "ethnographic" weapon. I paid a similar amount as your sister did. The good news is it led me here and opened a whole new world for me. You never know.

All the Best
Jeff

[scatteredminds]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi scattered,

Here is my first "ethnographic" weapon. I paid a similar amount as your sister did. The good news is it led me here and opened a whole new world for me. You never know.

All the Best
Jeff

Jeff on this point I agree. I have searched the Internet for a knowkedgable forum and I feel I have hit the motherload here. I, once again, agree with Rick. Price is now a moot point. I have begun a new journey of knowledge into a world I find addicting with a group of people I hope to consider friends.
I am new but am now thirst for knowledge not appraisals.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by scatteredminds

I have begun a new journey of knowledge into a world I find addicting with a group of people I hope to consider friends. I am new but am now thirst for knowledge not appraisals.

May I suggest reading this thread, on keris books.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=keris+books