EBay pick-up

David · 31st December 2012, 02:33 AM

I casually threw out a bid on this keris simply because i liked the hilt. Kind of a bet an forget thing. The blade is nothing exciting and the sheath needs a little re-furbishing. But it was this hilt that caught my attention. And the price was right. Any thoughts?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:L:OC:US:3160

Battara · 31st December 2012, 03:33 AM

Interesting hilt - not seen this type of carving on this kind of hilt before.

(Then again there are a lot of things I haven't seen before.....)

David · 31st December 2012, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Interesting hilt - not seen this type of carving on this kind of hilt before.

(Then again there are a lot of things I haven't seen before.....)

Well that's what i thought and the hilt does seem to have some genuine age to it.

Sajen · 31st December 2012, 11:18 AM

Very nice hilt with the kandit, I think this style is from the late 19th century. The price was indeed a very good one. I want to go for the other "keris" from the same seller, only for the hilt, but it went to much up. Please post pictures after your maintain.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 31st December 2012, 06:02 PM

So does anyone know the area this hilt comes from? East Jawa maybe?

Sajen · 31st December 2012, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

So does anyone know the area this hilt comes from? East Jawa maybe?

From Madura/East Java.

Sheath and blade as well.

Naga Sasra · 31st December 2012, 08:39 PM

David,

Good buy for a casual thought, the price was certainly right. It was a give away congratulations!

Since Battara and perhaps others are unfamiliar with this type carving I am attaching a similar type hilt (sorry about the photos, the piece is in the vault at the moment and I can't get to it easily for new photos)

Erik

David · 1st January 2013, 07:22 PM

Thanks Erik....would you concur with the East Jawa/Madura origin. I do see elements in the blade, such as the inward slant on the gandik, that might indicate Madura, but then, it can be seen that this blade was adapted to this sheath...

Naga Sasra · 2nd January 2013, 03:30 AM

You are very welcome David.
I do concur with the East Jawa/Madura origin at this time, this may however change once the blade is restored. As for the recycled wrangka I would not worry about that, I have several wrangka that has been fitted to a different blade over time, not a problem...

David · 2nd January 2013, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

As for the recycled wrangka I would not worry about that, I have several wrangka that has been fitted to a different blade over time, not a problem...

Oh, i wasn't worried about that at all. Only mentioned it to point out that there was always a chance that the blade and the dress could have different points of origin. Actually i am quite intrigued when i see old sheaths like this refitted in this manner. I presume it means that the owner either couldn't afford new dress and/or they saw value in the old dress they refitted due to either the craftsmanship or materials (in this case perhaps the wood) used.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2013, 05:45 AM

Very, very good David.

Very good indeed.

On the fill of the mouth in a wrongko.

There are a number of reasons for this:-

1) a wrongko can be original, but worn, and no longer provides a good fit or protection for the blade, so the over-size mouth is filled, usually by an inlay of wood, sometimes done in a contrasting colour.

2) a wrongko might be of particularly good wood, and is intentionally used instead of new wood; the thought behind this is a little bit like marrying a woman who is of exceptional quality, rather than a virgin:- a virgin has her own virtue, but a beautiful or intelligent woman with several previous husbands can more than compensate for the limited virtues of a virgin.

3) economy:- re-use of old can be a lot more economical than creation of new.

In view of the quality of the wood in this wrongko I'm inclined to think that reason #2 is the applicable one.

In accordance with what I believe to be true, this keris is East Jawa, meaning that it could be found in Madura, as Madura is a part of East Jawa, but it is not necessarily identifiable as of specifically Madura origin.

David · 3rd January 2013, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Very, very good David.

Very good indeed.

On the fill of the mouth in a wrongko.

There are a number of reasons for this:-

1) a wrongko can be original, but worn, and no longer provides a good fit or protection for the blade, so the over-size mouth is filled, usually by an inlay of wood, sometimes done in a contrasting colour.

2) a wrongko might be of particularly good wood, and is intentionally used instead of new wood; the thought behind this is a little bit like marrying a woman who is of exceptional quality, rather than a virgin:- a virgin has her own virtue, but a beautiful or intelligent woman with several previous husbands can more than compensate for the limited virtues of a virgin.

3) economy:- re-use of old can be a lot more economical than creation of new.

In view of the quality of the wood in this wrongko I'm inclined to think that reason #2 is the applicable one.

In accordance with what I believe to be true, this keris is East Jawa, meaning that it could be found in Madura, as Madura is a part of East Jawa, but it is not necessarily identifiable as of specifically Madura origin.

Thanks Alan. Yes, i am also inclined towards your 2nd explanation. It seems to me that the fitted piece of wood is a bit too large to account for adjustments for wear and tear on an original wrongko. And the wood is nice...

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2013, 07:33 PM

David, has the fill been done with wood or with shellac?

In the photo it looks like shellac.

David · 3rd January 2013, 11:10 PM

Actually not in my hands yet Alan. I will let you all know next week when i get back into town.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2013, 11:14 PM

OK David, thanks.

David · 12th January 2013, 10:38 PM

This keris arrived today and is proving quite interesting to me.

Alan, it looks to me that the wrongko refitting was done with wood. I think what looks like shellac to you is just the finish they put on the top part to help match it to the sheath. I will see if i can get some good shots of this tomorrow if the weather is good.
The hilt is really nicely carved and i'm fairly certain the kendit is true as well as the pelet wood of the sheath.
The interesting surprise i am having is that it would appear that the pesi might have been expertly replaced with an insert. It's a really nice, clean and tight job of i style i have seen done on Moro kris before, but not Indo. The blade is of better quality than the eBay photos show and it has some interesting pamor material. I will try to provide some close-ups of this when i get a moment and some good light.

A. G. Maisey · 13th January 2013, 07:49 AM

I would have very surprised if the kendit was other than natural and if the wrongko was not from naturally marked wood. This particular type of hilt is quite scarce, I cannot recall ever seeing a bad one. You really did well with this keris, David.

I know of several ways in which a pesi can be repaired, I'll be interested to see what has been done with this one.

David · 19th January 2013, 11:45 PM

Here are some shots of the pesi repair as well as the old re-fitting of the blade to the wrongko. Alan, it looks like a wooden piece to me that was then possibly received shellac on top to help match the wood.
I find the pesi repair very interesting.

The blade has obviously had a hard life, but it has some features i quite like. I have only given it a preliminary cleaning to remove the active rust. Some of the pamor material is very bright and silvery and has some interesting characteristics. I think i will have to wait for warmer weather to stain this blade, but i think this is worth working on further.

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2013, 04:17 AM

Yeah, the wrongko fill is self explanatory.

I've seen that pesi job a few times, and frankly, I cannot make up my mind if its a repair or an alternative original method. A couple I've had have been a perfect match for iron, which makes me feel its original. If a bakalan was undersize, fitting an add-on pesi like this would save a lot of material.

When you forge the pesi into a bakalan you either forge down , and then you lose a lot through flaking, or you cut the pesi out of a bakalan that has not been forged down, and again you lose material. A pesi needs a lot more material to start with than you'd think.

henri · 20th January 2013, 06:19 AM

Nice keris ... with a very similar hilt I have into my collection .

Rick · 20th January 2013, 03:47 PM

After seeing three of these hilts in this thread that have a kendit ring in almost exactly the same place I'm coming to the conclusion that it is a staining rather than natural .

Sajen · 20th January 2013, 04:12 PM

The possible pesi repair reminds me to a philippine kris in my possession.

BTW, you have done very well to buy this keris!

David · 20th January 2013, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

After seeing three of these hilts in this thread that have a kendit ring in almost exactly the same place I'm coming to the conclusion that it is a staining rather than natural .

Well, i'm pretty certain that mine is natural having it in hand and Erik's looks pretty good as well, though his photos aren't so detailed. Not sure about Henri's, but my filling is that this style of hilt seems to be just for kendit wood. Does anyone have an example without the belt?

David · 20th January 2013, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

The possible pesi repair reminds me to a philippine kris in my possession.
BTW, you have done very well to buy this keris!

Yes Detlef, i have seen this type of repair on Moro kris before. I am intrigued by Alan's suggestion that this might be an alternative original method. It does appear to be a pretty good match of metals for sure and it is done with such precision.

Sajen · 20th January 2013, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes Detlef, i have seen this type of repair on Moro kris before. I am intrigued by Alan's suggestion that this might be an alternative original method. It does appear to be a pretty good match of metals for sure and it is done with such precision.

Yes, I agree as well!

GIO · 20th January 2013, 05:32 PM

This one once was mine (stolen from my home).
This is only to complete the range of this kind of hilts.

GIO · 20th January 2013, 05:40 PM

Please apologize. I forgot the pic

David · 20th January 2013, 10:08 PM

Gio, I like your hilt, but i would say that while it is a relative it is not quite the same style.You have too much carved area in the middle of the hilt while this style leaves that section uncarved. And your photo may be deceptive, but your kendit looks to be an add-on to me...

GIO · 21st January 2013, 04:02 PM

Hi David,
my intention was only to show the natural black stripe of the wood. I believe the hilt is Madurese.

David · 21st January 2013, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Hi David,
my intention was only to show the natural black stripe of the wood. I believe the hilt is Madurese.

Okay....are you sure this stripe is natural. It looks inked or stained on in your photos, something that is rather commonly done to create this effect.

31st December 2012, 02:33 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	EBay pick-up I casually threw out a bid on this keris simply because i liked the hilt. Kind of a bet an forget thing. The blade is nothing exciting and the sheath needs a little re-furbishing. But it was this hilt that caught my attention. And the price was right. Any thoughts? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:L:OC:US:3160 Attached Images

31st December 2012, 11:18 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,797	Very nice hilt with the kandit, I think this style is from the late 19th century. The price was indeed a very good one. I want to go for the other "keris" from the same seller, only for the hilt, but it went to much up. Please post pictures after your maintain. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

31st December 2012, 08:39 PM	#7
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	David, Good buy for a casual thought, the price was certainly right. It was a give away congratulations! Since Battara and perhaps others are unfamiliar with this type carving I am attaching a similar type hilt (sorry about the photos, the piece is in the vault at the moment and I can't get to it easily for new photos) Erik Attached Images

19th January 2013, 11:45 PM	#18
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Here are some shots of the pesi repair as well as the old re-fitting of the blade to the wrongko. Alan, it looks like a wooden piece to me that was then possibly received shellac on top to help match the wood. I find the pesi repair very interesting. The blade has obviously had a hard life, but it has some features i quite like. I have only given it a preliminary cleaning to remove the active rust. Some of the pamor material is very bright and silvery and has some interesting characteristics. I think i will have to wait for warmer weather to stain this blade, but i think this is worth working on further. Attached Images

20th January 2013, 06:19 AM	#20
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Nice keris ... with a very similar hilt I have into my collection . Attached Images

31st December 2012, 03:33 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Interesting hilt - not seen this type of carving on this kind of hilt before. (Then again there are a lot of things I haven't seen before.....)

31st December 2012, 06:02 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	So does anyone know the area this hilt comes from? East Jawa maybe?

1st January 2013, 07:22 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Thanks Erik....would you concur with the East Jawa/Madura origin. I do see elements in the blade, such as the inward slant on the gandik, that might indicate Madura, but then, it can be seen that this blade was adapted to this sheath...

2nd January 2013, 03:30 AM	#9
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	You are very welcome David. I do concur with the East Jawa/Madura origin at this time, this may however change once the blade is restored. As for the recycled wrangka I would not worry about that, I have several wrangka that has been fitted to a different blade over time, not a problem...

3rd January 2013, 05:45 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Very, very good David. Very good indeed. On the fill of the mouth in a wrongko. There are a number of reasons for this:- 1) a wrongko can be original, but worn, and no longer provides a good fit or protection for the blade, so the over-size mouth is filled, usually by an inlay of wood, sometimes done in a contrasting colour. 2) a wrongko might be of particularly good wood, and is intentionally used instead of new wood; the thought behind this is a little bit like marrying a woman who is of exceptional quality, rather than a virgin:- a virgin has her own virtue, but a beautiful or intelligent woman with several previous husbands can more than compensate for the limited virtues of a virgin. 3) economy:- re-use of old can be a lot more economical than creation of new. In view of the quality of the wood in this wrongko I'm inclined to think that reason #2 is the applicable one. In accordance with what I believe to be true, this keris is East Jawa, meaning that it could be found in Madura, as Madura is a part of East Jawa, but it is not necessarily identifiable as of specifically Madura origin.

3rd January 2013, 07:33 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	David, has the fill been done with wood or with shellac? In the photo it looks like shellac.

3rd January 2013, 11:10 PM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Actually not in my hands yet Alan. I will let you all know next week when i get back into town.

3rd January 2013, 11:14 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	OK David, thanks.

12th January 2013, 10:38 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	This keris arrived today and is proving quite interesting to me. Alan, it looks to me that the wrongko refitting was done with wood. I think what looks like shellac to you is just the finish they put on the top part to help match it to the sheath. I will see if i can get some good shots of this tomorrow if the weather is good. The hilt is really nicely carved and i'm fairly certain the kendit is true as well as the pelet wood of the sheath. The interesting surprise i am having is that it would appear that the pesi might have been expertly replaced with an insert. It's a really nice, clean and tight job of i style i have seen done on Moro kris before, but not Indo. The blade is of better quality than the eBay photos show and it has some interesting pamor material. I will try to provide some close-ups of this when i get a moment and some good light.

13th January 2013, 07:49 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	I would have very surprised if the kendit was other than natural and if the wrongko was not from naturally marked wood. This particular type of hilt is quite scarce, I cannot recall ever seeing a bad one. You really did well with this keris, David. I know of several ways in which a pesi can be repaired, I'll be interested to see what has been done with this one.

20th January 2013, 04:17 AM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Yeah, the wrongko fill is self explanatory. I've seen that pesi job a few times, and frankly, I cannot make up my mind if its a repair or an alternative original method. A couple I've had have been a perfect match for iron, which makes me feel its original. If a bakalan was undersize, fitting an add-on pesi like this would save a lot of material. When you forge the pesi into a bakalan you either forge down , and then you lose a lot through flaking, or you cut the pesi out of a bakalan that has not been forged down, and again you lose material. A pesi needs a lot more material to start with than you'd think.

20th January 2013, 03:47 PM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	After seeing three of these hilts in this thread that have a kendit ring in almost exactly the same place I'm coming to the conclusion that it is a staining rather than natural .

20th January 2013, 04:12 PM	#22
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,797	The possible pesi repair reminds me to a philippine kris in my possession. BTW, you have done very well to buy this keris! Attached Images

20th January 2013, 05:32 PM	#26
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	This one once was mine (stolen from my home). This is only to complete the range of this kind of hilts.

20th January 2013, 05:40 PM	#27
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Please apologize. I forgot the pic Attached Images

20th January 2013, 10:08 PM	#28
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Gio, I like your hilt, but i would say that while it is a relative it is not quite the same style.You have too much carved area in the middle of the hilt while this style leaves that section uncarved. And your photo may be deceptive, but your kendit looks to be an add-on to me...

21st January 2013, 04:02 PM	#29
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Hi David, my intention was only to show the natural black stripe of the wood. I believe the hilt is Madurese.