I'd like to see cross cultural sundang melayu kerises

[milandro]

I own a few krises and they are: Javanese , Balinese and Bugis.

I also own one Moro Kris with a very large 13Luk blade.

I'm curious about those Melayu Sundang that are not from the Philippines and which actually represent a cross cultural meeting of culture between the Indonesian kris and the Philippino Kris.


I understand they are shorter, generally show pamor and may feature or not Baca Baca. I think I gather that the hilt is friction mount (as opposed to be set in place) and there is , albeit not always, a mendak or selut of some sort?

I have had some contacts with a Balinese dealer whom suggested a couple but I am not so sure that they are what I may be interested in.


I would like to know more about these specific krises. I am not even sure that this tradition is very old. I have seen some examples clearly new but also saw others that appeared older but were certainly not older than 100 years if at all that!

thanks!


Just to show one example, this was sold a few years ago on Catawiki , it certainly was a new example but I think it fairly depicts the kind of thing which I do mean

[Sajen]

Hello Milandro,

Here is the wrong place! You have to look in the other Ethno forum, just search for Malay sundang or kris and you will find plenty of threads with examples, most of them are antique!

A few threads:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=malay+sundang
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=malay+sundang
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=malay+sundang
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=malay+sundang
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=malay+sundang

[milandro]

thank you , I was really looking more at crossover krises with pamor on the blade and a clearer mix of the two different traditions.

The ones you suggest are certainly fine specimens

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by milandro

thank you , I was really looking more at crossover krises with pamor on the blade and a clearer mix of the two different traditions.

The ones you suggest are certainly fine specimens

Malay sundangs normally don't show pamor!

[A. G. Maisey]

Pasar Turi, Surabaya.

[Gustav]

Well, Malay Sundang can have Pamor exactly like their Moro counterparts, but in diference of them also can have Gonjo with Pamor.

There are Malay Sundang which are parts of Perak and Terengganu regalia at least from second half of 19th cent.

[Rick]

There is also the detail of the blade's tang; many of the alleged Malay examples have a round tang; most Moro krises have a flat tang.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Well, Malay Sundang can have Pamor exactly like their Moro counterparts, but in diference of them also can have Gonjo with Pamor.

There are Malay Sundang which are parts of Perak and Terengganu regalia at least from second half of 19th cent.

Perfectly noted Gustav. I've one such piece here with twistcore blade and gongo, also a suasa strap and grip... speaking with another learned collector here, he has suggested late 18th century for its age.

Gavin

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Well, Malay Sundang can have Pamor exactly like their Moro counterparts, but in diference of them also can have Gonjo with Pamor.

Yes, they can be laminated for sure but don't get etched with warangan like the recent example Milandro has shown. I think that he means this.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Perfectly noted Gustav. I've one such piece here with twistcore blade and gongo, also a suasa strap and grip... speaking with another learned collector here, he has suggested late 18th century for its age.

Gavin

would like to see this example, please

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, they can be laminated for sure but don't get etched with warangan like the recent example Milandro has shown. I think that he means this.

yes, this is what I mean.

I have seen a number of modernly made Melayu Sundang kerises with pamor made visible and evident by washing with Warangan on internet .

If you look for the term " Sundang Melayu" Keris" you will come across several and also on Youtube there are a number of videos by Malay makers and collectors.

Undoubtedly the vaste majority are modern made krises (much frowned upon here I gather) . I would still like to see examples. I am not at liberty to publish what I can see because they are all items for sale (with the exception of the one shown above which was auctioned a long time ago and beloved at that time to a Dutch dealer ).


In the past there have been posts showing such krises

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=98814


there are also other one on the other forum like this sulu sundang twist core which may qualify

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=17344&page=1

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Rick

There is also the detail of the blade's tang; many of the alleged Malay examples have a round tang; most Moro krises have a flat tang.

thank you, I would certainly like to see some examples of your choice

[A. G. Maisey]

Post #1 shows a keris & dress that was most probably released to the world through Pasar Turi in Surabaya. The keris itself, ie, blade has been made by Madurese craftsmen in either Sumenep area of Madura or in Surabaya & hinterland. Time frame is post 1980. This is not a guess.

In Post 11 the keris on the reddish backcloth has the same or similar parentage. Again, not a guess.

The keris with 7 luk & twist core presents every indication that it is 19th century Brunei. My opinion in this case is based on a similar keris that I have in my care & that was the state execution keris of Brunei, dating from 1842, and the fact that the only other keris of this type that I have handled also came from Brunei.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, they can be laminated for sure but don't get etched with warangan like the recent example Milandro has shown. I think that he means this.

I am not so sure about that, having seen at least one Malay Sundang WITHOUT Pamor stained pitch black, and the stain wasn't new. In this case I think it was stained with realgar indeed.

Of course there are also other staining methods used on Malay Peninsula, with contrast being not so bold. I suppose the Sundang in the picture from 1907 has a lighter stain, and Albert's Sundang here has traces of what seems to be an older stain:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Malay+sundang

[A. G. Maisey]

Re my post #13

"The keris with 7 luk & twist core presents every indication that it is 19th century Brunei. My opinion in this case is based on a similar keris that I have in my care & that was the state execution keris of Brunei, dating from 1842, and the fact that the only other keris of this type that I have handled also came from Brunei."

I have had a chance to get back to my notes, I have in fact seen several of this type of keris, but have only handled two, mine & one other.

[Gustav]

Alan,

I guess, this Sundang could be quite similar to your specimen from Brunei.
I understand why certain people would attribute it to a Madura smith. I am quite sure, there were Madura smiths working on Peninsula too. On the other hand, wasn't Jasper&Pirngadie writing about smiths from Terengganu working in malay parts of Borneo? Some kind of geographical loop, which is very acceptable.

Sundang from #11 has a quite distinct Luk shape, and this Luk shape points to Terengganu. Kembang Kacang is different from the example I posted here below. Its sheath is (or better say, was, for antique examples) specifically Kelantan, which borders to Terengganu.

By the way, that Sundang from #11 is Luk 5, not 7.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

Undoubtedly the vaste majority are modern made krises (much frowned upon here I gather) .

I see no reason to frown upon modern made keris per se. The keris is a living art form and there are many modern keris being made which are quite good. What i might have less regard for, however, is a modern blade made by Madurese smiths presenting itself as a Moro kris, or something like that.
I don't think the archaic kris with the twist core you show in post #11 qualifies as as the type of Sundang Melayu you are seeking answers about. Nice kris though.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, in respect of geographic location of origin of the keris in post 11.

When relative certainty is lacking, we can hypothesise with relative freedom. I can only be relatively certain about a very limited number of things, & I try not to hypothesise about things where I lack sufficient data.

My opinion of place of origin of the post #11 keris is based on very limited certainty: the presence of a limited number of indicators that match with a limited number of keris from a known location.

However, what I do know with absolute certainty from Jawa is that the overall form of keris and the characteristics of keris detail do change from period to period, geographic location to geographic location, and maker to maker, but these changes occur within defined parameters. I believe it is reasonable to assume that a similar pattern of change can occur in other types of keris.

In respect of the number of luk in post #11. My initial professional training was in accountancy, one of the skills I learnt quite early in life was to add 2 + 2 and make 5 --- or 3 --- or in fact any number that might fill the need.

It is not such a big jump to turn a 5 into 7.

[Gavin Nugent]

It is interesting Gustav, the reference you note about Jasper & Pirngadie and their studies. Has the work been published?

I was sharing similar imagery to an author about the subtleties of Malay state influenced Sundang in the Borneo and Sulu regions recently, although that seems to have died a natural death...

The Malay states of Northern Borneo is a fascinating region and it is quite easy to see influence from Terengganu for me, not so much Kelantan, my eye is not yet trained to pinpoint these aspects.

I still struggle with modern keris, only in so far as misinformation and those mimicking other cultural materials.
There are thousands of "Malay" types that are modern Java made keris, made in the name of commerce.
They are bought in to Malaysia and sold on. The issue I am seeing more and more is many of these are being bought at the point of sale in Malaysia and then aged, mixed a little with other components, sometimes non regionally correct dress and sold to new collectors as old pieces over and over and over again...

Attached are a couple other other images.
A 3 luk kris that retains a stain in the parts not over polished.
The other the sundang I referenced with the twist core gonjo.

Gavin

[Gustav]

Alan,

information, even empirically gathered, can save lifes.

You see a certain type Keris, and you know exactly what it is, because you have seen exactly this type of Keris in Pasar or even being worked on in Madura.

I see a Pedongkok on a Buginese Keris, and I can say with the same certainty, this Pedongkok is new, even if it tries to echo an older form.

The things I see in the Sundang from #11 may differ a little bit from things you see in it; the difference is information.

About Luk counting, I understand, that what a person says can differ with the people he is communicating with, the level of communication and so on, but the best perhaps would be to keep a certain amount of respect, the fraction of respect you demand for yourself in situations you repeat saying you are a pupil of an Empu.

There surely are situations were 2+2 must be 3 or 5, but in some other situations such procedure can result in a time in prison.



Gavin,

two publications about Keris, which always will stay actual and indispensable, are the book of Jasper&Mas Pirngadie and the series of articles by Huyser. Both were published in Dutch, and there is no oficial English translation of them I am aware of.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

...
I still struggle with modern keris, only in so far as misinformation and those mimicking other cultural materials.

There are thousands of "Malay" types that are modern Java made keris, made in the name of commerce.

They are bought in to Malaysia and sold on. The issue I am seeing more and more is many of these are being bought at the point of sale in Malaysia and then aged, mixed a little with other components, sometimes non regionally correct dress and sold to new collectors as old pieces over and over and over again...
....

While I was researching the internet , I found , on YouTube, several videos, apparently all from Malaysia, made by makers (sometimes showing the forging process) of Melayu Sundang.

These are obviously newly made and seemingly made in Malaysia of course there may be others making them in Indonesia too, wherever there is money to be made people will try to make money.

I don't understand the language and so I can't tell what the people or voiceovers say about the krises and not even if they are attempting a sale or just describing some item. I won't therefore give any links. But anyone can look things up on Youtube by searching Melayu Sundang Keris.

There is a duo , for example, whom publishes videos under the channel Tenku Nara Paduka name, showing several blades, all obviously new and possibly for sale?

As far as I can tell from these videos the industry of keris making ( certainly of keris selling) is very alive there!

I don't see anything wrong there as long as they don't try to pass newly made kisses for old ones (which unfortunately also western dealers sometimes do)

I was interested in seeing examples and I tried to ask precisely for this with the title of this thread.


Again, my interest lies specifically with those krises that are not of the Moro type, but those which express a cross-over form between the pamor rich (and visible) Indonesian made kris and the moro kris.

[Sajen]

Sorry Alan,

I also count only 5 luk!

[A. G. Maisey]

I can understand that Detlef, one needs a background in creative accounting to find dollars where there are none, and the same seems to apply to the waves in a keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

I was interested in seeing examples and I tried to ask precisely for this with the title of this thread.
Again, my interest lies specifically with those krises that are not of the Moro type, but those which express a cross-over form between the pamor rich (and visible) Indonesian made kris and the moro kris.

Thank you Milandro, and that is exactly what i would ask this group stick to in this particular forum. Moro kris are meant to be discussed in the Ethno Forum.