Comments/Opinions on keris singa barong

BluErf · 9th July 2006, 02:57 AM

Anyone care to share comments/opinions on this singa barong please? Thanks!

Ok, the ukiran is not the original one, but I couldn't find a proper East Javanese ukiran that can fit the very long peksi (which is the longest in proportion to the blade amongst the kerises in my collection).

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

VANDOO · 9th July 2006, 06:11 AM

ESPECIALLY NICE WORK ON THE MALE TIGER THE BLADES WORKMANSHIP LOOKS TO BE VERY GOOD QUALITY. IS THE AREA BEHIND THE TIGERS BACK ONE OF THOSE FINGER PRINT HOLES OR JUST A AREA THAT IS CUT OUT? IS IT A RECENT OR A OLD BLADE AND FROM JAVA OR MADURA IN YOUR OPINION?
IS THERE A GOLD BALL IN THE TIGERS MOUTH, IF SO IS THAT CHINESE INFLUENCE?

CONGRADULATIONS I LIKE IT.

BluErf · 9th July 2006, 07:21 AM

Hi Vandoo,

The area behind the singa, I presume you are referring to the picetan, is carved out as part of the perabots of the keris. It's not a thumb depression akin to those on keris picit.

There is a metal ball in the mouth, and it looks like it was painted in gold colour. Brass/copper paint probably; don't think there's any actual gold in the paint.

I think it is an old blade (>100yrs old, late 19th century) from E. Java, but I'm not sure. That's why I'm putting it up for discussion.

There are signs of pitting on the sor-soran area, especially at the outer edge of the 1st luk. There are some very tiny perforations on the sraweyan area that allows light to pass through, probably due to acid cleaning over the years. The rest of the blade has better surface condition, with some nicks here and there, and a few pits.

The blade is not too heavy, which tilts the opinion towards an old blade (the result of more thorough forging). Madura muda blades, I noticed, tend to be quite heavy. However, if you notice, the singa itself has a rather smooth surface. The eyes and other features of the singa looks a bit worn smooth, so I don't know if the singa was polished recently.

Old? New? Modifed? I seek fellow forumnite's opinions please?

Thanks.

But regardless, I like the piece a fair bit (not to mention the pelet wood). Just want to find out more about the piece.

BluErf · 9th July 2006, 07:31 AM

As to whether the golden ball in the mouth is due to Chinese influence, I wouldn't rule that out, but a significant difference would be that the statues in China have manes, so are overtly lions, while in this keris' case, the creature has no mane.

The guardian lion statues in front of Chinese palaces and mansions often have a ball under their paw. Sometimes, they have a ball in their mouth, but this is more uncommon. I don't know the significance of the ball under the paw or the mouth.

Lei Shen Dao · 10th July 2006, 01:23 AM

Hi guys

I have been told that if this kind of keris is powerful (from the esoteric point of view

) you should put a little ball of gold in the mouth in order to keep the keris happy and quiet and ready to serve you better.

Just what I've heard.

Mudi · 10th July 2006, 03:24 PM

Maybe this keris is Bali? Ukiran is not right for Bali, but all else looks Bali to me, and 13 luk too! Barong singa is lion, not tiger. Chinese influence on keris Malay or keris di Majapahit has never been proven, but why not could it be? Chinese merchants were here by 800 AD, maybe earlier, and all over Malaysia, and Indonesia, it is clear their influence.

Yes, a 13 luk keris barong singa is a powerful keris, so be careful. Give it lots of oil and always keep the point up, when out of its gandar, never down, and don?t sniff it. If you can smell its oil, OK, but never hold a keris like this to your nose to enjoy its smell. I think too if you change the ukiran to ukiran di Bali, it will be a happier keris!

BluErf · 10th July 2006, 04:16 PM

Hi Mudi,

Greetings and welcome!

The ukiran is not original. The ukiran that came with the keris was East Javanese, but one with a dark band burnt round it with a hot solder.

The patra on that ukiran was not very nice, so I replaced it with this spare Solo ukiran I have (temporarily only). I'm just waiting for the right East Javanese ukiran to come along, but it would probably be a long wait because the peksi on this keris is very very long; all my other E. Javanese ukiran could not sit properly on the keris.

This keris is most probably not from Bali, because it is too small.

May I ask as to why we should refrain from sniffing at a keris Singa Barong? Or is that for kerises in general?

Mudi · 11th July 2006, 01:30 AM

Good morning

About smelling the keris, that is custom in Indonesia not to do this. It is considered not polite to the keris. But, I guess it only matters if you believe keris can get angry.

If the peksi is long, that sounds more like Bali. Ukiran in Bali are usually bigger than in Java. In Bali keris can be small. There are keris there made for women or younger man.

kai · 11th July 2006, 10:46 AM

Hello Kai Wee,

I think we should be seriously considering the possibility of a Balinese origin for this nice piece. Could you post a pic of the peksi, please?

BTW, what's the blade/peksi length? (KampungNet is slow again...)

Regards,
Kai

Bill M · 11th July 2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The guardian lion statues in front of Chinese palaces and mansions often have a ball under their paw. Sometimes, they have a ball in their mouth, but this is more uncommon. I don't know the significance of the ball under the paw or the mouth.

The ball under the paw signifies that the guardian is male.

You will note that the other guardian has a baby under her paw and is female.

Lei Shen Dao · 11th July 2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudi

Good morning

About smelling the keris, that is custom in Indonesia not to do this. It is considered not polite to the keris. But, I guess it only matters if you believe keris can get angry.

Mudi hi

Nice to hear it from another person too.
Some Javanese people say that it is bad to smell it (his oil and incence) because it is considered like stealling the "food" from it.

BluErf · 11th July 2006, 05:36 PM

The blade length is 13.85 inches (35cm)
The peksi length is 3 inches (7.6cm)

Dimensionally, I've not seen any old Balinese keris that is this small. Most Balinese kerises are around 16 - 18 inches long. The sheath is East Javanese and not Balinese. The original hilt (not shown) was also East Javanese. Even the mendak (though a cheap one with glass beads) is not the typical Balinese or Central Javanese type.

Compare the sheath to the other Balinese kerises that have been posted in the forum, or in Kampungnet (for those with decent access speed.

). You can see that they are related, but very different.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

And then, compare the greneng style on this singa barong to a Balinese/Lombok keris. Again, there is significant stylistic differences.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

I am confident that this keris is not Balinese. My doubt lies only in the age of the piece, and whether it may have been modified.

BluErf · 11th July 2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

The ball under the paw signifies that the guardian is male.

You will note that the other guardian has a baby under her paw and is female.

Thanks Bill, but is there significance as to why the male lion is holding on to the ball? Does the ball itself represent some object or idea?

Rick · 11th July 2006, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Thanks Bill, but is there significance as to why the male lion is holding on to the ball? Does the ball itself represent some object or idea?

My 2 cents ; the Singa is a guardian figure ; the ball under his paw (or in his mouth) may represent the Chinese mythological Dragon Pearl .

Your mileage may vary .

A. G. Maisey · 12th July 2006, 12:19 AM

It is not possible for me to say if this keris blade is old, or recent, only by looking at a photo.

However, I would comment that the rondha, and the fine detail of the kikik are remarkably perfect for a keris that displays considerable erosion to areas of the rest of the blade.The sides of the gonjo show erosion of the weld layers, but the form of the rondha is completely uneroded.

In this world, we mostly get what we pay for.

I would suggest that you consider the source and the cost of this keris and weigh that information against what you have in your hand.

Mudi · 12th July 2006, 04:40 AM

Keris Bali written by Ida Bagus Dibia shows many keris with blade shorter than 40 to 48 cm. A peksi of 7.6 cm for this keris would be normal.

nechesh · 12th July 2006, 05:08 AM

Mudi, what other reasons do you have for believing this to be a Balinese keris other that the size of the pesi. I have certainly seen a 3" pesi on Javanese blades of this size.

Mudi · 12th July 2006, 05:29 AM

My father is Bugis but my mother is from Denpasar Bali. So I grow up with both culture. Each very different. The photo is not real sharp on my computer. I am not certain this is keris di Bali. I just offered suggestion that it could be from Bali. If I can find time, I will show some like this from Pak Dibia?s book or maybe from some keris Bali in our collection. Pak Dibia?s book shows many sarong just like this one. Also, many Balinese or Hindu Javanese are still in east Java. Same is with Lombok were keris made there cannot be certain if keris Lombok or keris Bali. In Indonesia all keris are brothers or family, so cannot always tell exactly where or what Empu made the keris.

VANDOO · 12th July 2006, 05:54 AM

THE PEARL WAS SAID TO BE THE TEARS OF THE MOON AND SOME WERE SWALLOWED BY OYSTERS ,SOME WERE TAKEN UP BY DRAGONS AS THEIR MOST PRECIOUS POSSESION AND WERE CALLED PEARLS OF WISDOM WHEN IN THE DRAGONS POSSESION. THEY FIGURE IN A LOT OF OLD CHINESE LEGENDS THERE IS EVEN ONE ABOUT A FAMOUS DRAGON AND ITS PEARL THAT LIVED ON TOP OF MOUNT. KINABALU IN BORNEO. DRAGONS ARE OFTEN SEEN PURSUING THE FIRE PEARL IN CHINESE ART AND THE LION IN THE LION DANCE IS OFTEN TEASED BY A MAN WITH ONE DURING THE DANCE.
OFTEN IN CHINA THERE IS A STONE BALL IN THE MOUTHS OF THE GAURDIAN LIONS BY GATES AND DOORS IT IS GOOD LUCK TO SPIN IT 3 TIMES(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) BEFORE ENTERING AND IT IS SAID IF YOU CAN REMOVE IT IT WILL TURN TO GOLD. SO I WOULD SAY THE LION OR TIGER (IT DOES HAVE STRIPES

) STANDS FOR POWER ,THE GOLD BALL FOR LUCK, WHISDOM AND PROSPERITY AND THE TYPE OF PARMOR ,BLADE SHAPE AND NUMBER OF LUKS WILL ALSO ADD TO ITS POWERS. UNFORTUNATELY I AM NOT A SCHOLAR OF THE KERIS BUT THIS WILL GIVE THE LAYMAN SOME IDEA OF THE SYMBOLISM AND POWERS THEY ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE AND WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERED SO VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT.

nechesh · 12th July 2006, 05:55 AM

Well, the sarong looks East Javanese to me. Of course that is no assurance of the origins of the blade itself. No doubt you will still find communities of Balinese in East Jawa, but i would not compare this situation with Bali and Lombak. If i am not mistaken, the Balinese court actually once ruled over Lombak. This would not be the case in Jawa. That would have a very strong influence of the type of keris made in Lombok. That same Bali court influence did not exist in Jawa. Keris throughout Indonesia certainly are related and you are right to point out that at times it can be difficult to determine origin. I will take your statement one step further and suggest that unless one has strong provenence for a keris (which is rare) one can never know for sure what mpu made it. It is generally much easier to tell what area a keris is from. Still.....sometimes not.

I asked you the question because to me this appears to be a keris form well known to Jawa that was presented in East Jawa dress. The surface of this keris appears to be rough from etching, not polished as i understand is the tradition for Bali keris. I suppose it could be a Bali keris that has been kept in a Javanese manner, but i would just be guessing there. So i asked the question why you thought it might be Balinese because i thought you might have some substantial reasoning.

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is not possible for me to say if this keris blade is old, or recent, only by looking at a photo.

However, I would comment that the rondha, and the fine detail of the kikik are remarkably perfect for a keris that displays considerable erosion to areas of the rest of the blade.The sides of the gonjo show erosion of the weld layers, but the form of the rondha is completely uneroded.

In this world, we mostly get what we pay for.

I would suggest that you consider the source and the cost of this keris and weigh that information against what you have in your hand.

Yes, the good condition of the rondha and the kikik (I suppose he does look more kikik than singa barong) compared to the corrosion of the sor-soran struck me immediately when I first saw the keris. The ganja could be a replacement, and I also thought the kikik could have been new parmor material welded onto an old blade. However, when I look at the pamor lines between the kikik and the rest of the blade, I do not see broken lines that would have suggested the welding of a separate piece to the blade. The maker could have made the keris and artificially corroded the sor-soran area, except for the kikik. Either way, it is a very interesting thing to ponder over.

This keris is not too expensive, and I don't have any information on it apart from what I have observed.

However, I wouldn't completely agree with the bit about "mostly get what we pay for". There are many examples of people paying too much for a keris, and people selling some of their great pieces too cheaply.

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

My 2 cents ; the Singa is a guardian figure ; the ball under his paw (or in his mouth) may represent the Chinese mythological Dragon Pearl .

Your mileage may vary .

Hmmm... does that mean the lion stole the pearl from a dragon?

BluErf · 12th July 2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

OFTEN IN CHINA THERE IS A STONE BALL IN THE MOUTHS OF THE GAURDIAN LIONS BY GATES AND DOORS IT IS GOOD LUCK TO SPIN IT 3 TIMES(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) BEFORE ENTERING AND IT IS SAID IF YOU CAN REMOVE IT IT WILL TURN TO GOLD. SO I WOULD SAY THE LION OR TIGER (IT DOES HAVE STRIPES

) STANDS FOR POWER ,THE GOLD BALL FOR LUCK, WHISDOM AND PROSPERITY AND THE TYPE OF PARMOR ,BLADE SHAPE AND NUMBER OF LUKS WILL ALSO ADD TO ITS POWERS.

Thanks Vandoo. You know more about these things than I did, and I'm Chinese.

Next time I see a stone lion with a ball in it's mouth, I'll go spin it!

BluErf · 10th December 2006, 04:29 AM

He's back with a more appropriate ukiran.

And I noticed that Rick has a similar ukiran on his ladrangan Yogya.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Rick · 10th December 2006, 04:02 PM

Hi Kai Wee,
The work on the cecekans is extremely well done on this handle.
Semar is one of my favorite handle forms as possibly you can tell by my avatar.

The wood is just lovely.

Have you come to any conclusions about the age of this blade since you first posted?

Rick

David · 10th December 2006, 04:44 PM

Agreed, that is a lovely ukiran...and i also prefer your new choice of mendak.

Age is always a difficult thing to judge and they have gotten really good at different techniques of artifical aging. Regardless, i find this to be a very attractive keris, but i also understand the desire to KNOW one way or the other. I believe Kai Wee is correct that you can, from time to time, still find that excellent deal on a great old keris, and perhaps this is one of those times. As Alan suggested though, if one considers the price AND the source the answer might be implied. Either way i like it.

A. G. Maisey · 10th December 2006, 11:51 PM

Pretty nice keris, however, one thing troubles me with that singo barong:- I cannot see the lines of pamor continuing from the singo barong into the blade.
I have a couple of blades where the singo barong has been welded separately to the blade. When I bought them I did not see this, and only discovered it later. These blades have been inspected by some knowledgeable people, and they didn't see it either, until it was pointed out.

Kai Wee, I suggest that you inspect very carefully the entire area around the point where the singo barong joins the body of the blade, and a little further perhaps, and see if can find definite evidence of the grain of the metal continuing unbroken from the singo barong into the body of the blade.

The second handle you have fitted is a very nice handle, but it is not appropriate for this keris.

David · 11th December 2006, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The second handle you have fitted is a very nice handle, but it is not appropriate for this keris.

Alan, given your experience with keris from this area i have no doubt you are correct about this, but would you mind explaining why for our edification?

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2006, 12:44 AM

David, in this case a pic or two would be worth a thousand words, but right now I do not have time to do pics.

This handle style that Kai Wee has fitted is not an East Jawa style.Yes, it looks better than the Solo one did, but its still not right. Its just occurred to me I might have a pic on file . If I have I'll post it.

OK, here it is. Best I can do at short notice.

The handle that Kai Wee needs is one like either #2 or #4 from the left. Some others would also be suitable, but not the one on it at the moment.

David · 11th December 2006, 01:50 AM

Thanks Alan. I can't see the profile of #4 that well, but is it looks like it might be the same hilt form as that timoho sheathed keris i got from you from catalog #50. Not sure if you would remember.
Can you say what keris type Kai Wee's hilt would be appropriate for?

9th July 2006, 02:57 AM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Comments/Opinions on keris singa barong Anyone care to share comments/opinions on this singa barong please? Thanks! Ok, the ukiran is not the original one, but I couldn't find a proper East Javanese ukiran that can fit the very long peksi (which is the longest in proportion to the blade amongst the kerises in my collection). http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Attached Images

10th December 2006, 04:29 AM	#24
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	He's back with a more appropriate ukiran. And I noticed that Rick has a similar ukiran on his ladrangan Yogya. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Attached Images

11th December 2006, 12:44 AM	#29
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	David, in this case a pic or two would be worth a thousand words, but right now I do not have time to do pics. This handle style that Kai Wee has fitted is not an East Jawa style.Yes, it looks better than the Solo one did, but its still not right. Its just occurred to me I might have a pic on file . If I have I'll post it. OK, here it is. Best I can do at short notice. The handle that Kai Wee needs is one like either #2 or #4 from the left. Some others would also be suitable, but not the one on it at the moment. Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 11th December 2006 at 01:02 AM.

9th July 2006, 06:11 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ESPECIALLY NICE WORK ON THE MALE TIGER THE BLADES WORKMANSHIP LOOKS TO BE VERY GOOD QUALITY. IS THE AREA BEHIND THE TIGERS BACK ONE OF THOSE FINGER PRINT HOLES OR JUST A AREA THAT IS CUT OUT? IS IT A RECENT OR A OLD BLADE AND FROM JAVA OR MADURA IN YOUR OPINION? IS THERE A GOLD BALL IN THE TIGERS MOUTH, IF SO IS THAT CHINESE INFLUENCE? CONGRADULATIONS I LIKE IT.

9th July 2006, 07:21 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Vandoo, The area behind the singa, I presume you are referring to the picetan, is carved out as part of the perabots of the keris. It's not a thumb depression akin to those on keris picit. There is a metal ball in the mouth, and it looks like it was painted in gold colour. Brass/copper paint probably; don't think there's any actual gold in the paint. I think it is an old blade (>100yrs old, late 19th century) from E. Java, but I'm not sure. That's why I'm putting it up for discussion. There are signs of pitting on the sor-soran area, especially at the outer edge of the 1st luk. There are some very tiny perforations on the sraweyan area that allows light to pass through, probably due to acid cleaning over the years. The rest of the blade has better surface condition, with some nicks here and there, and a few pits. The blade is not too heavy, which tilts the opinion towards an old blade (the result of more thorough forging). Madura muda blades, I noticed, tend to be quite heavy. However, if you notice, the singa itself has a rather smooth surface. The eyes and other features of the singa looks a bit worn smooth, so I don't know if the singa was polished recently. Old? New? Modifed? I seek fellow forumnite's opinions please? Thanks. But regardless, I like the piece a fair bit (not to mention the pelet wood). Just want to find out more about the piece.

9th July 2006, 07:31 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	As to whether the golden ball in the mouth is due to Chinese influence, I wouldn't rule that out, but a significant difference would be that the statues in China have manes, so are overtly lions, while in this keris' case, the creature has no mane. The guardian lion statues in front of Chinese palaces and mansions often have a ball under their paw. Sometimes, they have a ball in their mouth, but this is more uncommon. I don't know the significance of the ball under the paw or the mouth.

10th July 2006, 01:23 AM	#5
Lei Shen Dao Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	Hi guys I have been told that if this kind of keris is powerful (from the esoteric point of view ) you should put a little ball of gold in the mouth in order to keep the keris happy and quiet and ready to serve you better. Just what I've heard.

10th July 2006, 03:24 PM	#6
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Maybe this keris is Bali? Ukiran is not right for Bali, but all else looks Bali to me, and 13 luk too! Barong singa is lion, not tiger. Chinese influence on keris Malay or keris di Majapahit has never been proven, but why not could it be? Chinese merchants were here by 800 AD, maybe earlier, and all over Malaysia, and Indonesia, it is clear their influence. Yes, a 13 luk keris barong singa is a powerful keris, so be careful. Give it lots of oil and always keep the point up, when out of its gandar, never down, and don?t sniff it. If you can smell its oil, OK, but never hold a keris like this to your nose to enjoy its smell. I think too if you change the ukiran to ukiran di Bali, it will be a happier keris!

10th July 2006, 04:16 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Mudi, Greetings and welcome! The ukiran is not original. The ukiran that came with the keris was East Javanese, but one with a dark band burnt round it with a hot solder. The patra on that ukiran was not very nice, so I replaced it with this spare Solo ukiran I have (temporarily only). I'm just waiting for the right East Javanese ukiran to come along, but it would probably be a long wait because the peksi on this keris is very very long; all my other E. Javanese ukiran could not sit properly on the keris. This keris is most probably not from Bali, because it is too small. May I ask as to why we should refrain from sniffing at a keris Singa Barong? Or is that for kerises in general?

11th July 2006, 01:30 AM	#8
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Good morning About smelling the keris, that is custom in Indonesia not to do this. It is considered not polite to the keris. But, I guess it only matters if you believe keris can get angry. If the peksi is long, that sounds more like Bali. Ukiran in Bali are usually bigger than in Java. In Bali keris can be small. There are keris there made for women or younger man.

11th July 2006, 10:46 AM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Kai Wee, I think we should be seriously considering the possibility of a Balinese origin for this nice piece. Could you post a pic of the peksi, please? BTW, what's the blade/peksi length? (KampungNet is slow again...) Regards, Kai

11th July 2006, 05:36 PM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The blade length is 13.85 inches (35cm) The peksi length is 3 inches (7.6cm) Dimensionally, I've not seen any old Balinese keris that is this small. Most Balinese kerises are around 16 - 18 inches long. The sheath is East Javanese and not Balinese. The original hilt (not shown) was also East Javanese. Even the mendak (though a cheap one with glass beads) is not the typical Balinese or Central Javanese type. Compare the sheath to the other Balinese kerises that have been posted in the forum, or in Kampungnet (for those with decent access speed. ). You can see that they are related, but very different. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php And then, compare the greneng style on this singa barong to a Balinese/Lombok keris. Again, there is significant stylistic differences. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php I am confident that this keris is not Balinese. My doubt lies only in the age of the piece, and whether it may have been modified.

12th July 2006, 12:19 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	It is not possible for me to say if this keris blade is old, or recent, only by looking at a photo. However, I would comment that the rondha, and the fine detail of the kikik are remarkably perfect for a keris that displays considerable erosion to areas of the rest of the blade.The sides of the gonjo show erosion of the weld layers, but the form of the rondha is completely uneroded. In this world, we mostly get what we pay for. I would suggest that you consider the source and the cost of this keris and weigh that information against what you have in your hand.

12th July 2006, 04:40 AM	#16
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Keris Bali written by Ida Bagus Dibia shows many keris with blade shorter than 40 to 48 cm. A peksi of 7.6 cm for this keris would be normal.

12th July 2006, 05:08 AM	#17
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Mudi, what other reasons do you have for believing this to be a Balinese keris other that the size of the pesi. I have certainly seen a 3" pesi on Javanese blades of this size.

12th July 2006, 05:29 AM	#18
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	My father is Bugis but my mother is from Denpasar Bali. So I grow up with both culture. Each very different. The photo is not real sharp on my computer. I am not certain this is keris di Bali. I just offered suggestion that it could be from Bali. If I can find time, I will show some like this from Pak Dibia?s book or maybe from some keris Bali in our collection. Pak Dibia?s book shows many sarong just like this one. Also, many Balinese or Hindu Javanese are still in east Java. Same is with Lombok were keris made there cannot be certain if keris Lombok or keris Bali. In Indonesia all keris are brothers or family, so cannot always tell exactly where or what Empu made the keris.

12th July 2006, 05:54 AM	#19
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE PEARL WAS SAID TO BE THE TEARS OF THE MOON AND SOME WERE SWALLOWED BY OYSTERS ,SOME WERE TAKEN UP BY DRAGONS AS THEIR MOST PRECIOUS POSSESION AND WERE CALLED PEARLS OF WISDOM WHEN IN THE DRAGONS POSSESION. THEY FIGURE IN A LOT OF OLD CHINESE LEGENDS THERE IS EVEN ONE ABOUT A FAMOUS DRAGON AND ITS PEARL THAT LIVED ON TOP OF MOUNT. KINABALU IN BORNEO. DRAGONS ARE OFTEN SEEN PURSUING THE FIRE PEARL IN CHINESE ART AND THE LION IN THE LION DANCE IS OFTEN TEASED BY A MAN WITH ONE DURING THE DANCE. OFTEN IN CHINA THERE IS A STONE BALL IN THE MOUTHS OF THE GAURDIAN LIONS BY GATES AND DOORS IT IS GOOD LUCK TO SPIN IT 3 TIMES(IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) BEFORE ENTERING AND IT IS SAID IF YOU CAN REMOVE IT IT WILL TURN TO GOLD. SO I WOULD SAY THE LION OR TIGER (IT DOES HAVE STRIPES ) STANDS FOR POWER ,THE GOLD BALL FOR LUCK, WHISDOM AND PROSPERITY AND THE TYPE OF PARMOR ,BLADE SHAPE AND NUMBER OF LUKS WILL ALSO ADD TO ITS POWERS. UNFORTUNATELY I AM NOT A SCHOLAR OF THE KERIS BUT THIS WILL GIVE THE LAYMAN SOME IDEA OF THE SYMBOLISM AND POWERS THEY ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE AND WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERED SO VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT.

12th July 2006, 05:55 AM	#20
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, the sarong looks East Javanese to me. Of course that is no assurance of the origins of the blade itself. No doubt you will still find communities of Balinese in East Jawa, but i would not compare this situation with Bali and Lombak. If i am not mistaken, the Balinese court actually once ruled over Lombak. This would not be the case in Jawa. That would have a very strong influence of the type of keris made in Lombok. That same Bali court influence did not exist in Jawa. Keris throughout Indonesia certainly are related and you are right to point out that at times it can be difficult to determine origin. I will take your statement one step further and suggest that unless one has strong provenence for a keris (which is rare) one can never know for sure what mpu made it. It is generally much easier to tell what area a keris is from. Still.....sometimes not. I asked you the question because to me this appears to be a keris form well known to Jawa that was presented in East Jawa dress. The surface of this keris appears to be rough from etching, not polished as i understand is the tradition for Bali keris. I suppose it could be a Bali keris that has been kept in a Javanese manner, but i would just be guessing there. So i asked the question why you thought it might be Balinese because i thought you might have some substantial reasoning.

10th December 2006, 04:02 PM	#25
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Kai Wee, The work on the cecekans is extremely well done on this handle. Semar is one of my favorite handle forms as possibly you can tell by my avatar. The wood is just lovely. Have you come to any conclusions about the age of this blade since you first posted? Rick

10th December 2006, 04:44 PM	#26
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Agreed, that is a lovely ukiran...and i also prefer your new choice of mendak. Age is always a difficult thing to judge and they have gotten really good at different techniques of artifical aging. Regardless, i find this to be a very attractive keris, but i also understand the desire to KNOW one way or the other. I believe Kai Wee is correct that you can, from time to time, still find that excellent deal on a great old keris, and perhaps this is one of those times. As Alan suggested though, if one considers the price AND the source the answer might be implied. Either way i like it.

10th December 2006, 11:51 PM	#27
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Pretty nice keris, however, one thing troubles me with that singo barong:- I cannot see the lines of pamor continuing from the singo barong into the blade. I have a couple of blades where the singo barong has been welded separately to the blade. When I bought them I did not see this, and only discovered it later. These blades have been inspected by some knowledgeable people, and they didn't see it either, until it was pointed out. Kai Wee, I suggest that you inspect very carefully the entire area around the point where the singo barong joins the body of the blade, and a little further perhaps, and see if can find definite evidence of the grain of the metal continuing unbroken from the singo barong into the body of the blade. The second handle you have fitted is a very nice handle, but it is not appropriate for this keris.

11th December 2006, 01:50 AM	#30
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Thanks Alan. I can't see the profile of #4 that well, but is it looks like it might be the same hilt form as that timoho sheathed keris i got from you from catalog #50. Not sure if you would remember. Can you say what keris type Kai Wee's hilt would be appropriate for?