Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 30th June 2013, 12:41 PM   #1
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default Ngombe execution knife

And here a Ngombe execution knife from the same auction, again for a small amount.

Comments?
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2013, 06:39 PM   #2
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

Again, I applaud you unbelievable luck with this great score. I hope that you have more of the same in store for you for years to come. I do not collect African weapons as you know, but non the less I am starting to get a bit jealous of your good fortune. Keep up the good work.

Best, Robert
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2013, 06:58 PM   #3
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
Again, I applaud you unbelievable luck with this great score. I hope that you have more of the same in store for you for years to come. I do not collect African weapons as you know, but non the less I am starting to get a bit jealous of your good fortune. Keep up the good work.

Best, Robert
Thank's again Robert! I have learned by the years of collecting and my low budget to look for the sleepers by ebay and elsewhere, sometimes I have good luck, sometimes not. I have start my collecting with keris and other weapons from Indonesia, later I get interest in Philippine weapons and now I see that the african, special from Central Africa, weapons have something fascinating also. But frankly said I would give away a Congo blade for something from Indonesia or the Philippines.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2013, 08:04 PM   #4
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,806
Default

With brass knobs on.
Attached Images
 
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2013, 08:52 PM   #5
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Beautiful example Tim! Thank you for sharing.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2013, 01:47 PM   #6
Pieje
Member
 
Pieje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 132
Default

Sajen, yours is older than Tim's example dating probably before 1920.
Tim's sword was probably made between the 2 world war's.
Pieje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2013, 06:40 PM   #7
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pieje
Sajen, yours is older than Tim's example dating probably before 1920.
Tim's sword was probably made between the 2 world war's.
Pieje, thank you again, by which features you date this? Just want to learn!

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2013, 07:34 PM   #8
Pieje
Member
 
Pieje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 132
Default

By the shape and strongness of the blade. Those with extensions are younger than those without (like yours). Your blade is wider/thus stronger compared to the more fragile blade of Tim's sword.
Pieje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2013, 07:41 PM   #9
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pieje
By the shape and strongness of the blade. Those with extensions are younger than those without (like yours). Your blade is wider/thus stronger compared to the more fragile blade of Tim's sword.
Thank you for the learning lesson!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2013, 09:31 PM   #10
Luc LEFEBVRE
Member
 
Luc LEFEBVRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: France
Posts: 472
Default

A double one.
Attached Images
 
Luc LEFEBVRE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2013, 09:50 PM   #11
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc LEFEBVRE
A double one.
Thank you for sharing Luc. Is the "ferrule" like by my one from copper sheet?

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2013, 05:32 AM   #12
DaveA
Member
 
DaveA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 413
Default For comparison: My three Ngombe swords

The first sword, painted, was originally obtained by a missionary in the Belgian Congo in the early part of the 20th C., probably around 1925 when the Belgian Trappists were recalled from the Congo. I bought it from the missionary's nephew in Belgium. It is 27 inches long.

The other two are more typical Ngombe execution swords. Each is 26 inches long.

The Ngombe tribe traded these swords widely. Sometimes you may see them called "Ngulu" or "Ngala", which is short for "Bangala", a station on the Congo River set up in the 19th C. The ethnic group in that area, the Mongo, traded for these swords with the Ngombe despite their history as sworn enemies. The swords were used primarily as ceremonial pieces in the execution of slaves, often to conclude a peace agreement between two warring tribes. Colonial Belgium forbid execution and cannibalism, previously widespread in that area of the Congo. Goats substituted for human slaves in the ritual. By the mid-20th C. these swords were used by the Ngombe in a dance called "Likbeti" which could last two days. It culminates in the sacrifice of a goat and its consumption by the revelers. (Reference: Nelson, Samuel H. Colonialism in the Congo Basin, 1880-1940. Athens, OH: Ohio University Center for International Studies, 1994. Print. Africa Ser., No. 64.)
Attached Images
     
DaveA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2013, 08:18 PM   #13
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Thank you Dave for sharing your examples and the interesting historical pictures as well the interesting background about this swords.

Here some more examples I have found in old threads, hopefully that the owners don't mind.
Attached Images
      
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2013, 11:38 AM   #14
Pieje
Member
 
Pieje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 132
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Thank you for the learning lesson!
No problem, I also learned it from people with much more knowledge and experience than me.
Pieje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2013, 05:17 PM   #15
Carlo
Member
 
Carlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 7
Default

Hello Detlef,

great knife !! Congratulations. Here's another exemple from a double one. The handle is wrapped in yellow copper.

Enjoy, Carlo
Attached Images
  
Carlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2013, 02:54 PM   #16
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

After some hours work and very dirty fingers I have cleaned one side of the Ngala, here some pictures.
Attached Images
         
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2013, 03:01 PM   #17
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

And here some pictures from the other, uncleaned side. I know that some members like a blade like this more but I prefer to look at a clean blade.
Attached Images
    
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2013, 03:20 PM   #18
Flavio
Member
 
Flavio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Italia
Posts: 1,243
Default

Very nice and a very good cleaning work! Congrats, Detlef!
Flavio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2013, 03:23 PM   #19
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlo
Hello Detlef,

great knife !! Congratulations. Here's another exemple from a double one. The handle is wrapped in yellow copper.

Enjoy, Carlo
Hello Carlo,

sorry, just before noticed your post! Thank you and your double one is just beautiful, thank you for sharing.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2013, 03:25 PM   #20
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavio
Very nice and a very good cleaning work! Congrats, Detlef!
Thank you Flavio!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2013, 11:24 PM   #21
DaveA
Member
 
DaveA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 413
Default Hmm… remove the patina or not?

I'm looking at these pictures of beautiful Ngombe swords, some cleaned down to the raw metal and appearing spanking new, and others showing the passage of time. I know feelings are mixed among among members of the forum on the various aspects and merits of preservation vs. restoration. For now, I'm thinking that the African weapons have a greater beauty when they show their age. Arrest the rust and preserve the rest!

Best,

Dave A.
DaveA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 12:46 PM   #22
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveA
I'm looking at these pictures of beautiful Ngombe swords, some cleaned down to the raw metal and appearing spanking new, and others showing the passage of time. I know feelings are mixed among among members of the forum on the various aspects and merits of preservation vs. restoration. For now, I'm thinking that the African weapons have a greater beauty when they show their age. Arrest the rust and preserve the rest!

Best,

Dave A.
Hello Dave,

I don't want to start a discussion what is a correct maintenance of ethnograhic weapons and I am aware like you that there are different perceptions special between european and american collectors. But I have several questions and notes.
First, I see only one ngala in up which seems to my eyes somewhat overcleaned, all other apparently cleaned blades still have the signs of wear and age IMHO.
Second, why you write this special about african weapons? Where you see the different between maybe philippine and african blades? I think that every tribal warrior have kept his respected and surely expensive weapons in a good and clean state. Furthermore is a rusted blade improper for fighting IMO.

Do you think that I have overcleaned my ngala and do you have let it in the state the backside still have? Please have a look to the detail pictures from the cleaned blade. And frankly said, the blade look on the pictures much cleaner as in real.

In my opinion I have only removed rust and no patina. BTW, I have some blades with a dark surface which I have let in this state, but this blades haven't had active rust. See attached image.

I hope that you don't feel attacked by my questions since this isn't my purpose.

Best regards,

Detlef
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Sajen; 5th August 2013 at 01:09 PM.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 03:22 PM   #23
Pieje
Member
 
Pieje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 132
Default

The Africans kept their weapons very clean, this can be seen on original pictures. Many have beautiful engraving. Why let these engraving covered by that black “patina” making them often hardly visible. (Not to confuse with the blackened part on the blade of some swords, Kuba etc) The many copper wire and nails used on the hilt would be useless if not kept clean.

I noticed that swords brought back from Belgian Congo in e.g. the first part of the 20th C. don’t have that black “patina”. The active usage of these weapons at that time probably made it impossible to acquire such patina. Apart of removing the active rust, those don’t need any further treatment. It is a real pleasure to clean these weapons.
However, those that stayed in Africa for dozens of years, unused, stored in that harsh climate, only those show such black blade. And cleaning could take some time as noted Sajen.
In my opinion, if you like to have your weapons as they were at the time they were used, you should clean the blade. “Showing their age” is just showing what they look like if being unused for many dozens of years. But that’s not the African way of preserving their weaponry. Only my opinion.
Pieje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 04:00 PM   #24
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Agree complete with you. There may be examples where it is difficult to find the correct way (for example the first one in post #13) but by my one I think it will be no other choice to spend some more hours for the back side!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th August 2013, 06:08 PM   #25
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Smile

I AM NOT SURE IF THESE ALL FIT INTO THIS CATEGORY OR TRIBE BUT ARE SIMULAR IN FORM. I HAVE ALWAYS LIKED THE DOUBLE BLADE TIP FORMS AND WILL ADD SOME PICTURES I HAVE ON HAND. PERHAPS SOMEONE WITH THE KNOWLEGE CAN CLASSIFY THEM AS TO TRIBE AND NAMES IF THEY WISH.
Attached Images
            

Last edited by VANDOO; 15th August 2013 at 06:41 PM.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2013, 04:16 AM   #26
eric45
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Default

very nice.
eric45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2013, 06:02 PM   #27
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Smile

THE LAST PICTURE ABOVE IS SAID TO BE JEMONGO, NGATA I AM NOT SURE IF THATS THE TRIBES OR WHAT. HERE ARE 2 MORE PICTURES OF IT ONE SHOWING THE UNUSUAL POMMEL GRIP. OLD OR MORE RECENT WORK I DON'T KNOW BUT I LIKED IT AND THOUGHT THE PRICE WAS RIGHT.
Attached Images
  
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.