new from the philippines!

[themorningstar]

thought i would share a picture w/ everybody some brand new made swords from the p.i., any thoughts or opinions anyone?
-style

[LabanTayo]

nice swords.
sansibars, ginungtings, talibongs, pinutes, espadings. hell, you got everything.
nice work......

[ariel]

Well, well, well...
Once again we get this mumbo-jumbo from Kansas...(LOL)
When are we going to get a promised definition of these names ?

[themorningstar]

thanks labantayo, if possible, let zel know that a negros talibong like in the picture(a little shorter though) will be sent to him soon for evaluation

[LabanTayo]

ariel,
its a coming, just be patient.

morningstar,
cant wait to see it. when can we get ours for keeps?
i really like the cebuano (#4) ginungting and (#2) talibong.

[Ferguson]

Wow, I like those.

Steve

[themorningstar]

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

ariel,
its a coming, just be patient.

morningstar,
cant wait to see it. when can we get ours for keeps?
i really like the cebuano (#4) ginungting and (#2) talibong.

actually labantayo, number 2 and 4 are from negros and made in negros.

[LabanTayo]

that makes 'em even better.

[donutsrule]

I think the one at the bottom was made for the 6-fingered man from the movie "The Princess Bride!"

[zelbone]

Yo Style,
Can't wait to try the talibong !!! Shelley and I will definately put it to the test and let you know what we think! Thanks again, bro!


Ariel,
Don't feel to bad...no mumbo-jumbo here...even Shelley and I get confused with these names.


Zel

[themorningstar]

hey zel, no problem at all, matter of fact when all is done, you guys can keep it, only problem is-i'm only sending one, so you and labantayo are gonna have to fight over it, lolz.. enjoy! it'll be sent out this week hopefully

[nechesh]

OOOHHH!!! A sword fight! Can you guys post video of that?

[Federico]

Originally Posted by themorningstar

thought i would share a picture w/ everybody some brand new made swords from the p.i., any thoughts or opinions anyone?
-style

Now how can I send you proper thoughts and opinions if you dont send me the swords to play with first Awesome pick up, great to see some nice stuff still being made, any more info on where you picked these up, particularly for us drooling forumites

[MABAGANI]

#2 and 4 handled well in live blade practice yesterday, I'd tweak minor things out of personal preference, size and length. As is, definitely of nicer quality sword make coming out of the PI. Trainer versions would be good too, I hate getting cut by unskilled fighters who think they know how to play live. I got cut in a later session with sharp zanibars, my partner dragged the blade across my hand after he finished his move, a no no in live blade practice.

[zelbone]

LabanTayo and I have had the privledge to evaluate one these new swords from themorningstar. We've had it since January, but I've procrastinated writing this evaluation until now...just hours before I take off for the Philippines for a month !!!

Anyways, themorningstar sent me a new talibong from Negros knowing that LabanTayo and I both study a Visayan art from Negros and the talibong is one of the types of swords we use in our sword art. When the talibong (or you could call it a tenegre) arrived the first thing I noticed when I picked it up was that it was a serious sword and definately not tourist junk that you would expect from new swords coming from the Philippines. The sword measures 26.5 inches long overall with a blade of around 20 inches. It's about 1.25 inches at it's widest and about 0.25 inches thick at the ricasso with a nice distal taper. The blade follows the nice slender talibong form usually associated with Negros with a nice long 7.5 inch false edge. The wider "bilog" form is usually associated more with Panay and is exemplified in the "Sanduko" tenegre blades. One interesting note here is that the blade is double beveled instead of the traditional chisel-edge. I discussed this with themorningstar and he said that this configuration would appeal to more westerners and martial artist than the traditional left or right hand single bevel. It also allows the sword to be used by either right or left handed persons.

As requested by themorningstar, Shelley and I etched the blade to see if the blade had a hardened edge. We used FeCl and found that it indeed had been forged and had a hardened edge which was darker than the rest of the sword.

The handle is of the traditional horsehoof design that comes from Negros. The hilt is carved of carabao horn and is highly polished. The ferrule looks like its made of either brass or iron which has been chrome plated. The S-guard is also made of brass or iron and chrome plated as well. We really like the S-guard on this sword. The bottom bow covers the fingers well and leaves enough room for them to still move around. The top part of the guard is small enough to be unobtrusive, but effective enough to protect your hand and catch your opponents blade. All in all, a very effective hilt. One nice touch is that even though the hilt is your typical Visayan blind tang construction, a pin goes crosswise through the hilt and tang further securing the blade into the handle.

The scabbard that came with this sword is wood with leather covering both ends, with a little hanger block of wood near the throat. themorningstar appologized to me about the scabbard before hand saying this was just a prototype and the scabbard was just thrown together in the last minute. I actually didn't find anything wrong with the scabbard...it does what a scabbard is supposed to do and it doesn't look that bad.

So how well does this sword work? It works great and handles extremely well. The first thing I noticed is that it swings and twirls very well. It's a very fast blade that can change directions rather quickly. For me the blade was just the right length at 20 inches. LabanTayo said he'd prefer a blade just a little longer. Actually, the morningstar has another talibong with a longer blade which LabanTayo would probably prefer. We did notice one thing about the hilt. The hilt is bigger than most of the sword hilts we are use to, but then again LabanTayo and I are use to old antique Visayan swords with smaller proportioned hilts. The good news is that most westerners will have no problems with this hilt being too small like many of my vintage Visayan hilts. One of LabanTayos top students said there was nothing wrong with the sword and is perfect in size in all respects...of course he's over 6 feet tall and at least a good solid 225 lbs. I'm much small, but would prefer maybe a slightly smaller hilt. LabanTayo would prefer the same hilt, but with a longer blade. That's just being nitpicky. Overall, this is one great sword for any Filipino Martial Artist.

As for cutting, I don't have any pictures, but it cuts extremely well. This is one great sword for those not wanting to mess up or play with their antique Visayan swords. Enclosed are a few detailed pics with a couple of Visayan swords from Negros and Panay to compare with. Contact themorningstar if your interested in an authentic Visayan talibong or ginunting. Hopefully LabanTayo and themorningstar can add further comment. I'm off for the Philippines!

[Ian]

Very interesting!

Are the full tang examples from Luzon?

Ian.

[themorningstar]

Originally Posted by Ian

Very interesting!

Are the full tang examples from Luzon?

Ian.

full tang? i was unaware i had any made full tang... which ones in particular were you referring to? top to bottom is #'s 1-6, left is 7, right is 8

[tom hyle]

I can't speak for Ian, of course, but I believe he meant full length tangs, not full flat tangs; some of them seem to have full length tangs with brass pommel nuts?

[Ian]

Thanks Tom. Yes, full length tangs. Sometimes my thoughts get ahead of my fingers

morningstar -- Laban_Tayo makes mention above of "pinutes." Is the correct spelling pinute or pinuti, and how does the correct term translate into English?

Ian.

[LabanTayo]

sorry, mis-spelling on my part.
its pinuti.
means white metal, or shiny metal.
also can be a generic term for long thin blades.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

sorry, mis-spelling on my part.
its pinuti.
means white metal, or shiny metal.
also can be a generic term for long thin blades.

Thanks Shelley. That's three for three on "white" or shiny, which sort of made sense, but I like the alternative "long thin blade" as a descriptor for knives and swords.

[themorningstar]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I can't speak for Ian, of course, but I believe he meant full length tangs, not full flat tangs; some of them seem to have full length tangs with brass pommel nuts?

yes, four of the blades are from the luzon area, rat tail tang with brass end...

[ThePepperSkull]

I thought I would refesh this thread with some more Phillippine made modern blades.

yakan-made Pira, ca. 1992.

[ThePepperSkull]

^ forgot to mention the materials used: The handle is made of Langka wood, the sheath is some fort of Palm wood, and wrapped in Rattan.




Here's a cebuano Pinuti. This one is your more run of the mill utility bolo. Made by a Panday named Jun Silva.

[ThePepperSkull]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

I thought I would refesh this thread with some more Phillippine made modern blades.

yakan-made Pira, ca. 1992.
(snip)

Error on my part, this was made in 1995, not '92.

Here are pics of the same Pira, as taken by its previous owner, Cecil Quirino:






This is probably my favourite blade out of my collection. Very hard steel, the edge holds incredibly well, and it just feels like a workhorse.




Another modern made P.I. weapon. Here is a Kampilan made by a maguindanao smith who went by the name of "toks", made in 1992. Also procured from Cecil Quirino's collection:






Due to its tempering the blade vibrates quite a bit, and looking down the spire the blade curves. Despite this it holds its edge as well as any of the stiffer blades I own. Also, despite its relative shakiness in terms of vibrating when cutting with, feels very sturdy and does not feel to me like a tourist blade, which in contrast often feel brittle, wafer thin and unsafe. Of this I cannot be 100% sure and am just speculating, but Cecil is a man who does his research and does not procure touristy blades for his personal collection.

What do you all think of me getting this retempered and straightened? I found a local bladesmith (N. American) who would be willing to do this for me. the drawback is that the hilt will nee to be destroyed in order to do so.

Of course, the hilt is not as ornate as other older kampilan, nor is it as ornate as newer kampilan hilts coming from places like Tugaya... which I may consider ordering a hilt from to replace the old one if ever I decide to get the blade retempered and straightened.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Error on my part, this was made in 1995, not '92.

Here are pics of the same Pira, as taken by its previous owner, Cecil Quirino:






This is probably my favourite blade out of my collection. Very hard steel, the edge holds incredibly well, and it just feels like a workhorse.




Another modern made P.I. weapon. Here is a Kampilan made by a maguindanao smith who went by the name of "toks", made in 1992. Also procured from Cecil Quirino's collection:






Due to its tempering the blade vibrates quite a bit, and looking down the spire the blade curves. Despite this it holds its edge as well as any of the stiffer blades I own. Also, despite its relative shakiness in terms of vibrating when cutting with, feels very sturdy and does not feel to me like a tourist blade, which in contrast often feel brittle, wafer thin and unsafe. Of this I cannot be 100% sure and am just speculating, but Cecil is a man who does his research and does not procure touristy blades for his personal collection.

What do you all think of me getting this retempered and straightened? I found a local bladesmith (N. American) who would be willing to do this for me. the drawback is that the hilt will nee to be destroyed in order to do so.

Of course, the hilt is not as ornate as other older kampilan, nor is it as ornate as newer kampilan hilts coming from places like Tugaya... which I may consider ordering a hilt from to replace the old one if ever I decide to get the blade retempered and straightened.

Do you don't think that it is possible to bore out the rivet and take off the hilt?

Regards,

Detlef

[kai]

Do you don't think that it is possible to bore out the rivet and take off the hilt?

Sure, the hilt can be taken off! (I'd kinda question the expertise of a bladesmith who needs to destroy the hilt for working on a blade... )

Also, correcting an slightly bent blade (I reckon this is a somewhat even curve from your description?) should be possible to do without bringing the blade up to red heat and needing to harden/tempering it! Even kinks in a blade can usually corrected for without resorting to a forge. I think you need to talk to someone experienced with restoring antique swords (like Philip Tom) to get some pointers.

BTW, I'd like to see this kampilan blade etched - looks like pretty good work for a current era smith! (Neat reproduction - not suggesting this is an antique.) What is the maximum thickness?

If you really want to upgrade the hilt for a user blade, take care in selecting the new hilt - some of the Turgaya hilts look a bit cheesy IMHO.

Regards,
Kai

[ThePepperSkull]

cheese factor is what I was concerned about, as well haha.

Looking into it actually and did find another guy who said "Yeah, no problem" when discussing handle removal without damage,. It looks like the person may not even need the hilt removed to just reset the edge if that's all I decide to do, which is what I have been considering. There's no curve to it. more if a "twist" if it makes any sense. I've been toying with the prospect of etching it. I may do so, but am fairly certain it won't yield any interesting results... I could be wrong though.

Would this count as a reproduction? Maybe. Definitely does not feel like a tourist piece, and is made by a maranao smith. Then again, who would use this locally to warrant it as a genuine ethnographic piece? What use would a giant Kampilan be in the modern era versus a simple, smaller and more easily transportable kris? I don't know the answers but would love some input. Doesn't feel touristy to me though... but I have trouble arguing against the 'reproduction' label, despite the nature of it being of native manufacture, so you do have me there, kai

It is 5mm thick. A touch thinner when compared to the very old pieces, but is a common thickness among a lot post-WWII blades from the philippines and most modern made blades. (although in modern blades I do love the 1/4 inch/ 6.5mm thick ones the most, you still can't go wrong with a 5mm thick blade. they function just as well)

speaking of thickness, why did blades thin out as time progressed? Was it just that easier and easier access to monosteel made thinner blades as durable as the old thicker ones?