Was Egerton ever in India?

[ariel]

I had to consult Egerton’s book about something and an old question just popped up in my mind: where did he get his collection from?a

I went to his Wiki bio and there was nothing. But I distinctly remember that years ago I have read that he had to cut his sojourn in India short to stand for election in England. Can’t find the reference, though and ... start suspecting incipient Alzheimer’s.

Does anybody here have firm answer: yes or no? ( not about my Alzheimer’s, but about Egerton and India)?

[Jim McDougall]

Trying to wade through English peerage is DEEP!
In "Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour" (from the original "Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms" 1880) the author is shown as Lord Egerton of Tatton.
This would be Wilbraham Egerton, 1st Earl Egerton who was eldest son of William Tatton Egerton, 1st Baron Egerton.

Tatton was the historic estate in Tatton Park, Chesire, where they resided.

Apparently our Egerton, the author, was in India at some point, and became intrigued by the fascinating weaponry and seriously studied and collected them. As he was born in 1832, and by 1858 sat in the House of Commons until 1883, we may presume he had either spent time there prior to 1858, or perhaps in some period while he sat at the House of Commons (long vacation?).

Whatever the case, he was considered enough of an authority to catalog the collections of the India Museum at South Kensington, which became his handbook of 1880. Some of these arms became part of those catalogued by Philip Rawson in a 1952 work and published in 1967 in "The Indian Sword".

As with any reference work on arms, study is dynamic and new evidence and discovery will bring revision and correction, so as with all our venerable resources, these authors are respected for their work overall. They are the benchmark for the study we pursue here, and our corrections are just what they would have expected.

[Ian]

In the first sentence of his Introduction to the 1880 book, Egerton says that he started his collection in India in 1855. This suggests that he assembled his collection over a short period of 2-3 years before returning to England to pursue a political career.


Ian

[ariel]

Thanks Ian.

I know that, but I might have formulated my question badly. I was looking for some part of his official biography with more details .
Sorry for being imprecise.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I dont have any proof Ariel, and I dont know in which book I read it, but recently I read the following.
Egerton, when he bought a weapon (in India), he wrote that this or that weapon was from the place where he bought it, and that was what he wrote in his book. Obviously the weapon could have come from there, or from somewhere else.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Trying to wade through English peerage is DEEP!
In "Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour" (from the original "Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms" 1880) the author is shown as Lord Egerton of Tatton.
This would be Wilbraham Egerton, 1st Earl Egerton who was eldest son of William Tatton Egerton, 1st Baron Egerton.

Tatton was the historic estate in Tatton Park, Chesire, where they resided.

Apparently our Egerton, the author, was in India at some point, and became intrigued by the fascinating weaponry and seriously studied and collected them. As he was born in 1832, and by 1858 sat in the House of Commons until 1883, we may presume he had either spent time there prior to 1858, or perhaps in some period while he sat at the House of Commons (long vacation?).

Whatever the case, he was considered enough of an authority to catalog the collections of the India Museum at South Kensington, which became his handbook of 1880. Some of these arms became part of those catalogued by Philip Rawson in a 1952 work and published in 1967 in "The Indian Sword".

As with any reference work on arms, study is dynamic and new evidence and discovery will bring revision and correction, so as with all our venerable resources, these authors are respected for their work overall. They are the benchmark for the study we pursue here, and our corrections are just what they would have expected.

Hello Jim, as you expertly point out in your closing paragraph how honoured these authors would have been with our corrections...This work was carried out without the technology we have today in the clunky old 19th Century when pen and ink meant exactly that! These writers were indeed a benchmark to which all of us aspire...I look forward to the day when at forum we can have the selected works lined up with Biographies and works of these great authors so we can chose which ones to collect...and hopefully one day they will all be free downloadable from web! Heres what the notes say and a picture of his work.

Quote''Originally created in the late 19th century to catalog Indian and Oriental arms and armor for a British museum, this volume has long since become a sourcebook of vital information on the military history of India. Enhanced with excellent illustrations, it remains one of the few books available on the subject, providing factual accounts of events ranging from the earliest invasions of the subcontinent in 200 B.C. to the decline of the Mogul Empire (early 18th century) and the First Burmese War in 1824. In addition to information on military history, succeeding chapters describe Indian swords, helmets, knives, shields, daggers, spears, javelins, blowpipes, sabers, and a host of other weapons, including arms used for athletic and sacrificial purposes. Descriptive notes, grouped according to geographical areas, comment on styles of decoration, manufacturing processes, and ethnological characteristics. A shorter section of the book includes detailed information on Arab and Persian arms (maces, battle axes, matchlock guns, bows and arrows, etc.) and Japanese armor. Students of Far Eastern arms and armor as well as enthusiasts of military history will welcome this comprehensive reference. 350 halftones and line illustrations. 350 halftones and line illustrations." Unquote.

Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Mel H]

I've collected for a long time and spent my youth looking for books on the subject, most of which I still have, including an original edition of Egerton, the colours of the illustrations are stunning

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mel H

I've collected for a long time and spent my youth looking for books on the subject, most of which I still have, including an original edition of Egerton, the colours of the illustrations are stunning

Mel, thank you so much for your thoughtful entry here, and it is good to hear from another similarly afflicted person as myself and many others on this subject. When my 'affliction' manifested over 50 years ago, I had already been intrigued by arms for many years. I began collecting as I could, but as there were few resources from which to learn, my attention went to finding books on these subjects.
That quest became my primary objective, and quite honestly most of the many valuable references we have today were not yet written.

However, one of my greatest conquests was obtaining " An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms" by the Right Hon. Wilbraham Egerton of Tatton (1880). In this were as you note, breathtaking artwork featuring swords in foldouts and two color plates, which were (in my knowledge) some of the earliest artworks of this kind on arms (in color).

The 1880 book was revised in 1896 as "Description of Indian and Oriental Arms", which was then reprinted in facsimile in 1968 by Stackpole books. This in turn was reprinted by Dover books in 2002 (the issue I presently have with me). My original copy is kept safely stored as I am 'on the road'

[Mel H]

Hello Jim, the copy that I have is indeed the revised edition of 1896 with red covers. Like yourself I also have the recent 'Dover' edition for everyday use.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mel H

Hello Jim, the copy that I have is indeed the revised edition of 1896 with red covers. Like yourself I also have the recent 'Dover' edition for everyday use.

Thanks Mel, good to know 1896 was in red. This is the 1880 (blue) and while in good condition I dread using it for daily reference and 1896 revised has the section including Sudanese etc.
I often use 'reading' editions which I often have notes and highlights in, but these originals are sacred

[ariel]

Thanks to all!

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Mel, good to know 1896 was in red. This is the 1880 (blue) and while in good condition I dread using it for daily reference and 1896 revised has the section including Sudanese etc.
I often use 'reading' editions which I often have notes and highlights in, but these originals are sacred

Very nice edition Jim . On abe at the moment there is an 1880s signed copy in a contemporary Indian binding for sale at nearly £8,000 if you fancy treating yourself !

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by thinreadline

Very nice edition Jim . On abe at the moment there is an 1880s signed copy in a contemporary Indian binding for sale at nearly £8,000 if you fancy treating yourself !

Thanks TRL! Wow, that's pretty amazing. Its funny though, I've never been able to put monetary value on these things. I got this copy many years ago, B.C. (=before computers) when finding books was through book stores and search services, and regular mail took forever.

I learned very young that to be a collector of antique arms, the most important thing was books. One of my favorite early references was Burton's "Book of the Sword" (1884), but I never got an original. Still as a young collector, he was a kind of hero to me, and I wanted to follow in his footsteps.
Many years later, incredibly I found the location of his manuscript for the Chatto & Windus (London publishers) with whom he arranged to write a book, not on fencing, but on the history of the sword.

It was in California at the Huntington museum, and somehow I was able to gain an invitation of the curator to visit and see the manuscript. I will never forget going through the guards, and being ushered to a private room, where with white gloves, they brought in several boxes.
Here were the yellowed page of pencil written (in the tiniest printing ever) notes with line drawings pinned (no staples in those days) to the pages.
I was actually trembling as I held and read these very notes by the man I had so much admired, just as they were when he wrote them well over a century before.

It was early when I realized I was far more a historian than a collector, and instead of focusing on buying swords (though I occasionally did) for me it was finding books. The same quest for the true history of these weapons held by Egerton, Burton, Castle, Stone and others became mine as well.....and gave me a life of adventure in the study of history, with the weapons themselves being my guides.

I have always felt pretty lucky in that, and especially to have had you and so many others here who share in that quest over these years.
Just some grateful nostalgia