Miniature or Child Shibriya

ALEX · 4th June 2017, 05:53 PM

Here's a nice little Shibriya. It is quite small but properly made with quality blade, proper carrying loop, etc. It has genuine wear and shows some age. Could it be made for a child, or just a souvenir or miniature? I think these dagger were given to children when they reach adulthood and ready to handle them. This one is so small as for a baby?

I know miniature arms were produced just as real, but the blade and general wear on this one makes me think it was meant to be worn/used. Any other comments, suggestions?

Jens Nordlunde · 4th June 2017, 10:46 PM

I cant say that I know very much about these weapons - close to nothing, if I have to be correct.
You give no measure, but it seems to be very small - could it have been made for a woman, or maybe for a smal boy.
Besides for the women regiments, it is known that some women did carry daggers and katars.

motan · 5th June 2017, 01:25 PM

Hi Alex,
Anything I say is a speculation because I have not seen anything similar before. Still I think that it is a nice and genuine find. Some aspects, like the twisted and wrapped silver wire, the general shape of the scabbard, and the little knob in the middle of the hilt are typical of shibriyas of the best known Jordanian type. Others, like the dog-leg blade and especially the shape of the pommel do not belong to standard shibiya style. Some technical details, like using one metal sheet on both sides are also different from shibriyas (seperate sheet is usually used for the back). So where is it from? The shape of the blade points to an early date - before WWI, but I am not sure in this case (see discussion in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Motan; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=Mota). The shape of the hilt and especially the pommel are reminicent of Iraqi (Bagdad) daggers. Just by gut feeling, I would place this dagger somewhere in Northern Arabia, where daggers called shibriya are much more diverse and include many blade and pommel shapes similar to this one.
As for the miniature size, this is a mistery that was discussed before, among others in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=size+matter The funny thing is that miniatures appear in almost every style and age. I own a pre 1900 Georgian kindjal where the space for the palm is just under 4cm!! while the blade is sharp and 20cm long. Would like to hear others abouthis subject though.

ALEX · 6th June 2017, 11:08 AM

Thank you Jens and Motan for your thoughts
Very interesting observations. I also do not recall seeing similar Shibriya, and also agree with Motan that this one appears to be genuine and real one, just smaller than usual. Some miniature arms were done quite well, but for display or novelty purposes and not to be used, and this becomes quite apparent when one sees or handles them. Some can also be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=miniature
The subject Shibriya is not exactly in this category and somewhere toward a real weapon, small utility, child knife, etc. Hopefully others will have more info or references to this theory.

kronckew · 6th June 2017, 03:36 PM

sailors also carried smaller sharp knives, unlike children's knives which were usually unsharpened. easier to use/carry in the restricted spaces on board ship.

ALEX · 14th June 2017, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

sailors also carried smaller sharp knives, unlike children's knives which were usually unsharpened. easier to use/carry in the restricted spaces on board ship.

Good point. It is small(er) but functional. Here it is next to a regular size shibriya.

Kubur · 14th June 2017, 02:01 PM

Of course, it's an old story, even with European arms.
Each time that we have something short or small, people say it was done for a child or a woman.
This is nonsense!

But the miniature weapons are something else... like the miniature yatagan published few weeks ago... For decoration or simply letter openers...

motan · 15th June 2017, 12:54 AM

Women? Children? Saylors? While the above may explain some daggers, it can not explain this phenomenon as a whole.
In my view, it comes down to one thing: can the hilt fit well into the user's hand? If this is not the case, then the dagger is of little practical value! This topic is not new to this forum- see, among others http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=size+matter).
Most small daggers have a small hilt. Many are too small even for a child's hand. I chose an example that is not even very small as a whole, but the hilt is far too small for the hand, even of a small person. It a Tblisi dagger from around 1900 (kindly indentified by forum members). Instead of showing my hairy hands on the forum again, I show it next to a standard-size playing card. Also, I have not seen any evidence in writing or picture of women or children carrying a small dagger. In the few pictures of children with daggers I know, they carry a full dize version.
What were they made for? Probably for some ceremonial/decorative purpose. I don't know. However, I don't think that small daggers can be easily explained by seemingly reasonable, but unrealistic arguments.
So, how big is the hilt of your shibriya? Can it be easily held in the hand?

Kubur · 18th June 2017, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Women? Children? Saylors? While the above may explain some daggers, it can not explain this phenomenon as a whole.
In my view, it comes down to one thing: can the hilt fit well into the user's hand? If this is not the case, then the dagger is of little practical value! This topic is not new to this forum- see, among others http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=size+matter)

Hi,
Well this doesn't work either.
Look at the Tibetan daggers
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...utanese+Dossum
Some hilts are very small and unconfortable.

motan · 18th June 2017, 12:01 PM

Hi Kubur, I am merely stating the obvious facts. I do not mean to play down the value of these daggers - after all I own some of these too - I would only like to know why daggers like this were produced and I don't find any of the current suggestions convincing. Even when they WERE used, why make them uncomfortable? Some very small daggers were used as utility knifes, but as weapons? Not very likely. I would have said to the maker "could you make it a just a little bigger please?"

ariel · 18th June 2017, 12:28 PM

Russian Fora routinely discuss Caucasian kindjals of a decent size but with very small handles. Many participants bring forth evidences of the practice of gripping the handle with 3 fingers only. Indeed, many very utilitarian daggers have very small handles: Finnish Puukko killed quire a lot of people in the beloved pastime of old Finland, i.e. drunken brawls. Beyond that I have no explanation other than decorative purpose of such items.

motan · 18th June 2017, 01:02 PM

Yes Ariel, but Puukos and some others are more knife-like, do not have a wide pommel and are not wider near the blade. They are easier to hold even when small. I have a very small Creatian knife that has been re-sharpened many times, but I think it was used for peeling apples and such.

4th June 2017, 05:53 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Miniature or Child Shibriya Here's a nice little Shibriya. It is quite small but properly made with quality blade, proper carrying loop, etc. It has genuine wear and shows some age. Could it be made for a child, or just a souvenir or miniature? I think these dagger were given to children when they reach adulthood and ready to handle them. This one is so small as for a baby? I know miniature arms were produced just as real, but the blade and general wear on this one makes me think it was meant to be worn/used. Any other comments, suggestions? Attached Images

15th June 2017, 12:54 AM	#8
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Women? Children? Saylors? While the above may explain some daggers, it can not explain this phenomenon as a whole. In my view, it comes down to one thing: can the hilt fit well into the user's hand? If this is not the case, then the dagger is of little practical value! This topic is not new to this forum- see, among others http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=size+matter). Most small daggers have a small hilt. Many are too small even for a child's hand. I chose an example that is not even very small as a whole, but the hilt is far too small for the hand, even of a small person. It a Tblisi dagger from around 1900 (kindly indentified by forum members). Instead of showing my hairy hands on the forum again, I show it next to a standard-size playing card. Also, I have not seen any evidence in writing or picture of women or children carrying a small dagger. In the few pictures of children with daggers I know, they carry a full dize version. What were they made for? Probably for some ceremonial/decorative purpose. I don't know. However, I don't think that small daggers can be easily explained by seemingly reasonable, but unrealistic arguments. So, how big is the hilt of your shibriya? Can it be easily held in the hand? Attached Images

18th June 2017, 12:01 PM	#10
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	to Kubur Hi Kubur, I am merely stating the obvious facts. I do not mean to play down the value of these daggers - after all I own some of these too - I would only like to know why daggers like this were produced and I don't find any of the current suggestions convincing. Even when they WERE used, why make them uncomfortable? Some very small daggers were used as utility knifes, but as weapons? Not very likely. I would have said to the maker "could you make it a just a little bigger please?"

4th June 2017, 10:46 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I cant say that I know very much about these weapons - close to nothing, if I have to be correct. You give no measure, but it seems to be very small - could it have been made for a woman, or maybe for a smal boy. Besides for the women regiments, it is known that some women did carry daggers and katars.

5th June 2017, 01:25 PM	#3
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Alex, Anything I say is a speculation because I have not seen anything similar before. Still I think that it is a nice and genuine find. Some aspects, like the twisted and wrapped silver wire, the general shape of the scabbard, and the little knob in the middle of the hilt are typical of shibriyas of the best known Jordanian type. Others, like the dog-leg blade and especially the shape of the pommel do not belong to standard shibiya style. Some technical details, like using one metal sheet on both sides are also different from shibriyas (seperate sheet is usually used for the back). So where is it from? The shape of the blade points to an early date - before WWI, but I am not sure in this case (see discussion in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Motan; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=Mota). The shape of the hilt and especially the pommel are reminicent of Iraqi (Bagdad) daggers. Just by gut feeling, I would place this dagger somewhere in Northern Arabia, where daggers called shibriya are much more diverse and include many blade and pommel shapes similar to this one. As for the miniature size, this is a mistery that was discussed before, among others in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=size+matter The funny thing is that miniatures appear in almost every style and age. I own a pre 1900 Georgian kindjal where the space for the palm is just under 4cm!! while the blade is sharp and 20cm long. Would like to hear others abouthis subject though.

6th June 2017, 11:08 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thank you Jens and Motan for your thoughts Very interesting observations. I also do not recall seeing similar Shibriya, and also agree with Motan that this one appears to be genuine and real one, just smaller than usual. Some miniature arms were done quite well, but for display or novelty purposes and not to be used, and this becomes quite apparent when one sees or handles them. Some can also be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=miniature The subject Shibriya is not exactly in this category and somewhere toward a real weapon, small utility, child knife, etc. Hopefully others will have more info or references to this theory.

6th June 2017, 03:36 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	sailors also carried smaller sharp knives, unlike children's knives which were usually unsharpened. easier to use/carry in the restricted spaces on board ship.

14th June 2017, 02:01 PM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Of course, it's an old story, even with European arms. Each time that we have something short or small, people say it was done for a child or a woman. This is nonsense! But the miniature weapons are something else... like the miniature yatagan published few weeks ago... For decoration or simply letter openers...

18th June 2017, 12:28 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Russian Fora routinely discuss Caucasian kindjals of a decent size but with very small handles. Many participants bring forth evidences of the practice of gripping the handle with 3 fingers only. Indeed, many very utilitarian daggers have very small handles: Finnish Puukko killed quire a lot of people in the beloved pastime of old Finland, i.e. drunken brawls. Beyond that I have no explanation other than decorative purpose of such items.

18th June 2017, 01:02 PM	#12
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Yes Ariel, but Puukos and some others are more knife-like, do not have a wide pommel and are not wider near the blade. They are easier to hold even when small. I have a very small Creatian knife that has been re-sharpened many times, but I think it was used for peeling apples and such.