Bringing Keris with you to Indonesia and back

[shadejoy]

I think about visiting Indonesia now that they have reopened their borders for full vaccinated travelers with no quarantine. Whether it be for jamasan, fitted for a new warangka, etc. I would love to solicit your opinions and experiences bringing your Keris with you to Indonesia and flying back.

I'm particularly interested in learning what to expect from both US and Indonesian custom. What documents I should bring if any or necessary. I also wonder if there's any difference in process between coming to and going out of Indonesia, in terms of having Keris in checked baggage.

Experiences from fellow European, Australian or Canadian mates are also welcomed if you have any and don't mind sharing.

[Anthony G.]

Apparently we are not allow to bring keris out of Indonesia unless there is a form of certification as what I was told by local native in the past. Keris is still consider a weapon and for sure do not hand carry but check in with baggage.

[A. G. Maisey]

I always go in and depart through Bali.

Going into Indonesia you must be aware that Indonesian Customs regards keris as weapons, you must declare that you have weapons when entering Indonesia.

Between 2015 and 2019 the Customs officers at Ngurah Rai (ie, Bali) have invariably had me jumping through hoops, when entering Indonesia with keris in my possession. This seems to be utterly ridiculous, but that has been my experience.

That said, although these very efficient and diligent Customs officers have been a pain in the butt and have inconvenienced me and cost me time, everything has always worked out OK in the end. However, I am fluent in Bahasa Indonesia, I have been to Indonesia well over 100 times, during the course of 50 or so years, and I do understand local customs and ways of handling problems.

In 2018 a relative who is Indonesian and who lives part of the time in Sydney tried to take three keris into Indonesia through Bali and he failed to declare them, considering that they were not weapons. Customs seized these keris and he only got them back because he is well connected to some very powerful people.

Declare. Be patient. Be unfailingly polite. Do not on any account lose either your cool or or your temper. You'll probably be OK.

Upset Customs or security and you can very easily generate the type of problems that they make movies about.

Trust me:- you do not want to get famous that way.

An easier way to get scabbards made is to take an accurate template made out of flat iron --- just light galvanised stuff --- instruct the tukang wrongko to make the gandar as big as he can, then you fit the blade yourself when you get home.

With warangan, learn to do it yourself. It is not near as difficult as a lot of the myth would like to make it seem.

Coming out of Indonesia through Bali.

Your suitcases will go through security screening before you enter the check-in counters. The security officers looking at the x-ray screen will see everything you have in your case. Sometimes they query it, sometimes they accept your explanation, sometimes they ask you to open your case to check the contents, sometimes they take you into an office to put you through the third degree by a senior officer, or sometimes by an official from the Dept of Trade who will tell you that you must go to Jakarta and get an export permit.

Things vary all the time, but I have never personally had a situation where I lost anything.

In 2017 & 2018 the officers at Ngurah Rai were very easy going.

I rather suspect that since Bali & Indonesia are both desperate to get the tourists back all procedures might be a bit more relaxed now than I have sometimes experienced in the past.

I live about 6 hours from Bali. At times in the past I have had breakfast at home and dinner in Solo, Jawa Tengah, and I have gone to Bali for long weekends.

However, although Bali is now open to tourists again I have decided that my next visit will only be after things there are have normalised again, currently I'm planning for March 2023. The accounts I have heard of the present situation there are from my own perspective, not very enticing. I have friends who own property in Bali going over on 1 July, these people are Aussies, not Indonesians, I'll be interested to hear what tell me when they get back.

I cannot advise on USA Customs, but over a plus 40 year period no keris that I have ever sent to the USA has caused even the slightest degree of difficulty or concern.

EDIT
These days Bali is not really "keris city", you are a Bule, ie, a "White", and as such it goes without saying that you are incredibly wealthy.

You're an outsider no matter how many smiles and compliments you get, and you are still only a milk cow.

I suggest that you don't get too hopeful about what you might achieve in the way of keris. Go to Bali for a holiday that can be something really pretty good, its another world, even now and if you can escape from the tourist scene for a bit you might get some nice surprises --- but probably not keris related.

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/bali-now-p-1

EDIT #2

If you do finish up going, do not for one insane moment consider renting a vehicle and driving yourself.

Imagine this:- you're in a crush of traffic driving down one side of a six lane motorway, the other three lanes are pretty empty, just a few scattered vehicles. It is not unusual to see vehicles on the crowded side of the road drive across the median strip and use the relatively empty lanes on the other side.

You want private transport --- I always do --- rent a driver along with the vehicle.

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Apparently we are not allow to bring keris out of Indonesia unless there is a form of certification as what I was told by local native in the past. Keris is still consider a weapon and for sure do not hand carry but check in with baggage.

I've not encountered this before Anthony. I've brought back an old badik from Jakarta Soekarno-Hatta airport in 2018 and a new keris from Denpasar Ngurah Rai in 2019.
I wasn't quizzed at all about either of them by the customs guy at either Indo airport.

I'm an Aus citizen, but I probably had a much easier time seeing as I'm of full Indonesian heritage and I speak Bahasa Indonesia well enough. ​

The guy at Jakarta did ask me about the badik but I told him it was a "warisan", an inheritance. We chitchatted warmly and off I went.

I don't recall having my check-in luggage opened and checked at all at Denpasar.

I was WAY more worried about what they'd do with my stuff upon arrival at Sydney airport. I declared both items as "wooden articles" , but not as weapons. I was worried about the badik because its old and I didn't want them to think the timber dress was a biosecurity risk. They took a look at both. No issues.

If I were to do it again I'd declare wooden articles and weapon just to be safe.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Declare. Be patient. Be unfailingly polite. Do not on any account lose either your cool or or your temper. You'll probably be OK.

This is very much worth emphasising. Be polite bordering deferent. Takes you a long way in Indonesian cultures, as a foreigner.

Showing frustration, impatience or exasperation will result in a bad time for you.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jaga Old Mate, you got a rails run, the ethnic heritage is like a Gold Card maybe.

What I wrote is absolutely true and accurate with no embroidery.

I've got a whole basketful of spine tingling stories about Indonesian Customs, yeah, it does vary, no doubt about that but +100 visits to Indonesia, means I've been through Indonesian Customs, in & out, +200 times.

Get a nice relaxed sort of officer you've got no problems, get somebody else you can have a nightmare on your hands.

I've got a few about Australian Customs officers too, but into Australia depends upon port of entry, because edged weapon laws vary state by state, and it is state law on possession that is dominant. For NSW you just get a B709B certificate from the police before you go. Strangely enough, this police form can smooth the way through Bali Customs too.

Jaga, what Anthony has said is the strict letter of the law, it has been run past me a few times during those private office sessions I mentioned, but the people on the ground are more realistic and I have never been forced to comply. I believe that if all you have are a handful of dubious items they'll just wave you through. When you get the private office routine the major objective is not law enforcement --- if you get my drift.

[Anthony G.]

Money makes the world go merry go round..............

[milandro]

would it not be advisable to send via a courier ahead of time and them collect over there and then send back the same way? I have bought from there and sending was not difficult (for the person who knows how to do these things).

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by milandro

would it not be advisable to send via a courier ahead of time and them collect over there and then send back the same way? I have bought from there and sending was not difficult (for the person who knows how to do these things).

Tricky, and indeed time has changed. Recently I have a Balinese forged a keris and when preparing to send to Singapore, no couriers in Bali wants to ship it. Reason: sharp weapon.

[milandro]

my source tells me that UPS does that while DHL doesn’t

[Marcokeris]

In my case, when i returned to Italy from Indonesia i always brought with me, in the big suitcase, at least 2 kris and i never had any problem both on boarding (Bali, Medan, Yogya or Jakarta) and on arrival in Milan. When I boarded, I told the baggage control officer that there were kris, bought as souvenirs, in the big suitcase. I have done this at least 30 times with no problems.... In Milan, unlike in Rome, baggage control is practically non-existent

[milandro]

Generally speaking, I think, customs officers everywhere in the world are aware that people buy many weapon shaped objects (because once they are in the suitcases not taken in the cabin they can only see them quickly going through the scanners and a tourist kris would look like an antique and vice-versa) and take them back, in the past many took spears ( extra long now and probably you can only take them as special luggage if not dismounted) from Kenya for example (I used to have several).

They would be generally tolerant. It is an industry after all and if they would make this impossible nobody would buy the tons of stuff they sell there.

BUT

the rules specifically state that you must declare entering of exiting Indonesia that you are carrying a “ sharp weapon”.

I think, provided you do this, nothing really happens, it is not “ forbidden” , you just have to comply (if you don’t you may get in trouble but most probably you won’t if you are traveling on a plane full of holiday makers)

Garuda goes as far as to specifically mention the kris among all the specially restricted articles

“....These following items may be carried by passenger only in their checked baggage:

Pointed/edged weapons and sharp object: Axes; hatches; arrows and darts; crampons; Ice axes and ice picks; any kind of knives (lockable or flick knives, pocket knives and scalpels); meat cleavers; machetes; swords; kris; open razor; scissors; throwing stars; trademan’s tool (drills, box cutter, all saws, hammer, screwdriver) and any other items which has pointed/edged shape.
NOTE:

If you bring any of the above mentioned objects, please report to our staff at the airport Check-in Counter.
Any sharp objects in checked baggage should be sheathed or securely wrapped to prevent injury to our baggage handlers...”


this is the real purpose of this, I think, the protection of people at the airports

Upon arrival anywhere you may be asked to open you luggage but the only real concern is that you are bringing in taxable items. In fact most probably you won’t have to pay anything for a kris which you are going to describe as a souvenir.

Sending anything though will be taxed at least the VAT (in Europe) , they are all very strict on this, now, ( since last June).

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Tricky, and indeed time has changed. Recently I have a Balinese forged a keris and when preparing to send to Singapore, no couriers in Bali wants to ship it. Reason: sharp weapon.

Singapore may have their own “ problems” about this and the problem is there and not in Indonesia.

The Keris collector ( youtube channel) says that Singapore has special rules about this. Krises are classed as weapons there. You need to apply for a license to import weapons.

Please watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYEAG-s5xok


as for legislation in other countries this may or may be not always treating the kris as a weapon.

In the NL for example they are classed as “ forbidden” because they are double edged and longer than what the law allows for , however since they are also “ antiques” and a ritual object their possession is allowed albeit not clearly defined in the law. I can also transport a kris in the car provided it is sheathed and best kept in a closed bag.

In Italy , of course Marco would know this, official rules should also allow to have a maximum of 8 such “ weapons”, unless you have a special collector license, if you have less than 8 you are supposed to declare this to the police... I am not sure many people do this but that is what one should be doing.

In the last few years the OFFICIAL rules have changed a lot, that doesn’t mean that everyone complies

https://www.perizieantiquariato.it/l...da-collezione/

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by milandro

Singapore may have their own “ problems” about this and the problem is there and not in Indonesia.

The Keris collector ( youtube channel) says that Singapore has special rules about this. Krises are classed as weapons there. You need to apply for a license to import weapons.

Please watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYEAG-s5xok


as for legislation in other countries this may or may be not always treating the kris as a weapon.

In the NL for example they are classed as “ forbidden” because they are double edged and longer than what the law allows for , however since they are also “ antiques” and a ritual object their possession is allowed albeit not clearly defined in the law. I can also transport a kris in the car provided it is sheathed and best kept in a closed bag.

In Italy , of course Marco would know this, official rules should also allow to have a maximum of 8 such “ weapons”, unless you have a special collector license, if you have less than 8 you are supposed to declare this to the police... I am not sure many people do this but that is what one should be doing.

In the last few years the OFFICIAL rules have changed a lot, that doesn’t mean that everyone complies

https://www.perizieantiquariato.it/l...da-collezione/

I knew this person personally but I do not wish to comment anything about him or the video.

As long a person follows protocol, declare correctly, honestly and also without a criminal records; it is not an issue to import keris thou export is challenging.

The issue is regardless of export and or import purpose, the carriers do not wish to deliver it due to classification of weapons. But some carriers do so.......

[A. G. Maisey]

The law in respect of removal of cultural property from Indonesia is pretty clear.

In very simple terms it is not a legal act to remove cultural property from Indonesia if the law states that you may not.

Two pieces of relatively recent law are worth noting:-

Law No. 11/2010
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appli...0%5BEng%5D.pdf

and

Law No. 5/2017

this law deals with the advancement of culture and as far as I know it is presently bogged down in bureaucratic inactivity.

Other laws that prohibit removal of cultural property from Indonesia go back to before WWII, and my understanding is that they are still enforceable.


Anybody who has the old "Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional" can turn to the end of the book and find several pages that will make the legal position quite clear in respect of exporting keris & other cultural property from Indonesia.

This text is all in Bahasa Indonesia, but it is very clear that the author of Ensiklopedi wanted everybody to understand that it is not a real good idea to remove keris & and other cultural property from Indonesia.


Every time you exit Indonesia with keris, or anything else in your suitcases that could be deemed to be culturally important, you do run a risk. However, like all risk this risk of taking keris out of Indonesia is able to be analysed, evaluated, ranked & managed.

But we cannot carry out any risk analysis unless we know exactly what the risk entails. Until we thoroughly understand any risk, we cannot manage that risk.

Its all very well for us to recount our individual experiences and come to the conclusion that overall, taking keris & other property out of Indonesian has a very low level of risk. But that level of risk will vary for somebody who is experienced and somebody who has no experience at all.

The risk will also vary according to the nature of the individual people one needs to deal with, and the overall situation as it applies at any particular time. This element of risk is one that we really cannot protect with any control. It is unknown until such time as the event occurs.

Nobody should walk into this situation of committing an act that has the possibility of landing them in a difficult position without having an understanding of the law and its implications.

My own opinion is that it is far better to solve a problem before it arises than to try to fix things when you're in the middle of a disaster.

At least get an understanding of all the elements involved before you do anything that could result in an undesirable outcome. Try to move around problems rather than meet them head on.

[shadejoy]

Shipping the Keris is definitely an option. In fact, all of my Kerises were sent through FedEx from Indonesia. I encountered no issue receiving via shipping mail. FedEx took care and sent me billing of custom fee a few days after receiving the package.

But through this thread, I am weighing the pros and cons of bringing the Keris with me instead. Trying to do my homework and not leaving anything up to chance. I will only bring two pieces of Keris with me.

Take away I can see here is DECLARE, DECLARE, DECLARE. I will have them sheathed and securely wrapped in checked baggage. Getting an invoice indicating the pieces are souvenirs is a good idea as well on my way back to US ..thank you for the hint.
Given the fact that we don't break any rules I think Indonesia airport authority have come along way since the days of 'salam tempel'. But ultimately, I should 'prepare' myself for any scenario that might play out since experiences with Indonesian custom seem to be varied. Being forthright. And Polite too, of course ..which is a default mode for any settings.

Thank you all for your input, much appreciated!

[ariel]

In any authoritarian society the severity of laws is mitigated by their selective obedience.
In Russia, for example, this rule is formulated as:” The law is like a telegraph pole: you cannot jump over it, but you can just go around “.

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

In any authoritarian society the severity of laws is mitigated by their selective obedience.
In Russia, for example, this rule is formulated as:” The law is like a telegraph pole: you cannot jump over it, but you can just go around “.

I am not sure that i would equate a nation's attempt to keep its cultural history from being sold out from under them to by banning export of one of their most important cultural artifacts a form of "authoritarianism". I think it is more a matter of cultural preservation.

[milandro]

I am not even sure that there is necessarily a ban to export krises from Indonesia per se in fact, I don’t think so, both new and old are routinely exported.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

I am not even sure that there is necessarily a ban to export krises from Indonesia per se in fact, I don’t think so, both new and old are routinely exported.

I believe Alan posted links to the actual laws that apply to this in post #14.

[milandro]

As I understand, these laws apply in general to anything that may be of historical national museum interest, like in most countries, but that is not necessarily applying to the krises (per se) or they would completely freeze the trade of krises both old and new is an industry in Indonesia. I see lots of legal businesses legally and openly trading in krises.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

As I understand, these laws apply in general to anything that may be of historical national museum interest, like in most countries, but that is not necessarily applying to the krises (per se) or they would completely freeze the trade of krises both old and new is an industry in Indonesia. I see lots of legal businesses legally and openly trading in krises.

I think that these laws undoubtedly apply to keris. The fact that antique keris are still sold and removed from the country is not surprising, but that doesn't mean it is being done legally or without some kind of government regulation.

[A. G. Maisey]

There is most definitely an enforceable legal procedure that should be employed in every case where cultural property is to be removed from Indonesia.

Keris & other items of tosan aji are cultural property.

Whether the requirements under the law are enforced or not is a separate matter.

The circumstances that surround each individual case of attempted removal of cultural objects from Indonesia are the elements that determine whether removal can occur without difficulty, or whether attempted removal will result in more difficulty than any reasonable person could desire.

It might help to think of the matter in the same way that we can think of exceeding the speed limit when we are driving a vehicle. Most of the time we can probably get away with it, but sometimes we get caught, after we get caught, sometimes we get fined, sometimes we might not get fined. The determining factors are the circumstances that apply at the time we were breaking the law, the personalities involved, and our own attitude.