Interesting belt

[RSWORD]

Looking for some thoughts as to origins of this interesting belt. Will provide some additional background after some discussion.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Rick,
A really interesting belt if I may say so. Just a guess, but maybe Japanese due to the many Lotus shaped bits and emblems.............
Possibly the slots on the two outer "joiners" could be used for hanging something?
Stu

[David R]

I would suggest North India heading towards Afghanistan Tibet and Central Asia. I am going by the hanger slots which are very Central Asian and the armoured-belt theme which you also see in Tibet and Bhutan. The studs remind me of some on an Afghan game pouch I once had. Buckles are not really common in the traditional Japanese repertoire and lotus is a decorative element used all through the east.
Overall my money would be on Tibet or Bhutan for the origin of this piece.
This is a very nice piece, thank you for sharing.

Dave

[RSWORD]

Thanks guys for the responses so far. The background I was holding a bit pending some discussion was the oral provenance of this item. The person I picked this up from stated he purchased this belt, along with a few other items I ended up with, from a Tibetan monestary. It does not follow any known example of Tibetan belt work and I tend to agree with the suggestion it could be from surrounding regions. I think India is a real possibility. In the book Tibetan arms and armour you see Tibetan monestaries with many tulwars mounted on the walls. Certainly they have picked up over the centuries many arms from neighboring countries. The fact it was found in Tibet in the 1970's adds to the story a bit but one can certainly understand how it ended up there.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Thanks guys for the responses so far. The background I was holding a bit pending some discussion was the oral provenance of this item. The person I picked this up from stated he purchased this belt, along with a few other items I ended up with, from a Tibetan monestary. It does not follow any known example of Tibetan belt work and I tend to agree with the suggestion it could be from surrounding regions. I think India is a real possibility. In the book Tibetan arms and armour you see Tibetan monestaries with many tulwars mounted on the walls. Certainly they have picked up over the centuries many arms from neighboring countries. The fact it was found in Tibet in the 1970's adds to the story a bit but one can certainly understand how it ended up there.

Salaams RSWORD ...I was following up a lead on Tibet....and I see you are also looking in that direction...It is interesting as I have seen the small floral shaped designs before on Portuguese Chests non of which I have left so no one would believe me...ha!

I present this single bit of evidence I stumbled upon today...of a Tibetan box.
A close resemblance to the main clasp style. see https://www.etsy.com/market/buddhist_hindu where it is advertised as a good fortune box ~ Chinese Buddhist Hindu ...which you could ascribe to Tibet.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Bob A]

I'm vaguely reminded of cloud collar designs, which seem to have spread eastward from China, if I recall correctly. Tashkent designs, and some from Samarkand, carried this sort of motif. Of course, they're only a bit north of Tibet.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams RSWORD ...I was following up a lead on Tibet....and I see you are also looking in that direction...It is interesting as I have seen the small floral shaped designs before on Portuguese Chests non of which I have left so no one would believe me...ha!

I present this single bit of evidence I stumbled upon today...of a Tibetan box.
A close resemblance to the main clasp style. see https://www.etsy.com/market/buddhist_hindu where it is advertised as a good fortune box ~ Chinese Buddhist Hindu ...which you could ascribe to Tibet.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Excellent supporting reference Ibrahiim. It is interesting to see how these often key decorative themes and motif are transferred and diffused widely in material culture of many diverse cultures and regions.
You say this design was on Portuguese chests, were these of Chinese or Oriental make for trade? or would they have been of Portuguese make using foreign designs?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent supporting reference Ibrahiim. It is interesting to see how these often key decorative themes and motif are transferred and diffused widely in material culture of many diverse cultures and regions.
You say this design was on Portuguese chests, were these of Chinese or Oriental make for trade? or would they have been of Portuguese make using foreign designs?

Salaams Jim, This is an interesting question ... Portuguese ... or sometimes called Omani-Portuguese chests were used as transport and ships storage boxes for trade items spices etc...and called sugar boxes ...which roughly I can spell in Portuguese "caixas a sugar..." When the Portuguese left Muscat in 1650 it was at something of a rush and many of these huge heavy boxes were left behind and over the centuries diffused into the surrounding areas..They are magnificent chests and decorated very simply except in the case of the chests on chests..or chest of drawers. I will show both as they all sport the lovely little floral shaped metal shapes in question....and on top of the storage boxes another shape much bigger about 2 inches across...iron and often tinned...(which has all but worn off)...One small chest is Portuguese Goan and either a scribes box or Bible Box. I found a couple of old pictures of some of mine from 10/20 years ago...oddly enough the nearest miniature floral metalwork are in brass on a big 9 drawer chest.. and the other similar but slightly different ironwork shows on the fronts of the storage chests chest/storage chest combinations...I show an old Indian door with bigger stud work...and I think the full range of miniature and larger metal stud work was relatively available across the entire subcontinent...though the project belt does seem to be Tibetan.
To answer your question on the Oriental point... These chests were distinctly Portuguese or Portuguese\ Goan...and can be traced via the Portuguese museums and various documentary sources...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, thank you for the fascinating and detailed response!!! These are truly interesting chests and would really make for some great context items in display groupings!
I think this forum is a great accent to our others as the kinds of items discussed here reflect material culture contemporary and in the style of many items which were indeed in context of the weapons we study.

Rick, this is really a nice example, and it would seem to be Tibetan as pretty much the consensus here. I wonder if it would have been to hold some of the ceremonial items often worn as accoutrements by monks in the temples?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

...and called sugar boxes ...which roughly I can spell in Portuguese "caixas a sugar..."

'Caixas de açucar', is the term. When speaking of furniture of the "caixa de açucar" style, we are referring to examples made with boards saved from the boxes used to transport sugar from Madeira Islands and Brasil, their great sugar competitor. Various kinds of exotic wood were used, but what counted was the box format. Although of variable capacity during periods and origin, they were 'standardized' containers for the transport of a determined quantity of 'pães de açucar' (sugar breads), so called due to the typical clay cones in which the sugar was 'packed'.
This type of furniture started by being of the utility type and later of style, namely pieces of one and two bodies, like the cup cabinets of the Dutch style, a fashion divulged in Portugal in the end of the 1600's, as well as chests.


.

[RSWORD]

Thanks everyone for your contributions.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

'Caixas de açucar', is the term. When speaking of furniture of the "caixa de açucar" style, we are referring to examples made with boards saved from the boxes used to transport sugar from Madeira Islands and Brasil, their great sugar competitor. Various kinds of exotic wood were used, but what counted was the box format. Although of variable capacity during periods and origin, they were 'standardized' containers for the transport of a determined quantity of 'pães de açucar' (sugar breads), so called due to the typical clay cones in which the sugar was 'packed'.
This type of furniture started by being of the utility type and later of style, namely pieces of one and two bodies, like the cup cabinets of the Dutch style, a fashion divulged in Portugal in the end of the 1600's, as well as chests.


.

Whilst that may in fact be the case on wooden cases from the Atlantic side it was not the case from this end. The big storage chests are as the item at my post #8 second last picture and would have been in place in the Factories ...coastal installations...Forts... built by the Portuguese at the time from about 1490 to 1650. Of the planked style I have seen no evidence here.. What is apparent is the type of clasp and escutcheon on these great chests...In Iron and invariably of the type illustrated.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Whilst that may in fact be the case on wooden cases from the Atlantic side it was not the case from this end. The big storage chests are as the item at my post #8 second last picture and would have been in place in the Factories ...coastal installations...Forts... built by the Portuguese at the time from about 1490 to 1650. Of the planked style I have seen no evidence here.. What is apparent is the type of clasp and escutcheon on these great chests...In Iron and invariably of the type illustrated.

One thing ought to be relative to the other; if furniture was in reality transformed from sugar boxes, then its origin was the planks ... whether carpenters and joiners worked them up to whatever patterns they wanted. If not, then the name is wrongly attributed.
I guess the idea was to use such exotic woods acquired for low prices.


http://mqc.gov-madeira.pt/pt-PT/Cole...il.aspx?id=155

http://www.madeira-edu.pt/portals/31...ugar-caixa.pdf

Quoting a part of the links above:

Encontram-se igualmente referências ao Mobiliário «caixa-de-açúcar», nos Açores que, de acordo com Francisco Ernesto de Oliveira Martins, se situa no período entre 1642-1700, e também em Lisboa onde em 1686, os marceneiros da Rua das Arcas solicitam autorização para construírem em madeiras de fora, nomeadamente as das caixas em que vem os assucares do Brasil.

Meaning: References to "caixa-de-açucar" furniture are found in the Azores ... 1642-1700 ... and also in Lisbon, where in 1686 local joiners required permission to build with woods from the outside, namely those of the boxes that come with the sugars from Brazil.

Perhaps the sketch of box uploaded in post #10 could be illusory. Some of these boards would have considerable dimensions, specially those of the boxes exported by Brazil, which could carry up to 1000 Kgs. of sugar.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

One thing ought to be relative to the other; if furniture was in reality transformed from sugar boxes, then its origin was the planks ... whether carpenters and joiners worked them up to whatever patterns they wanted. If not, then the name is wrongly attributed.
I guess the idea was to use such exotic woods acquired for low prices.


http://mqc.gov-madeira.pt/pt-PT/Cole...il.aspx?id=155

http://www.madeira-edu.pt/portals/31...ugar-caixa.pdf

Quoting a part of the links above:

Encontram-se igualmente referências ao Mobiliário «caixa-de-açúcar», nos Açores que, de acordo com Francisco Ernesto de Oliveira Martins, se situa no período entre 1642-1700, e também em Lisboa onde em 1686, os marceneiros da Rua das Arcas solicitam autorização para construírem em madeiras de fora, nomeadamente as das caixas em que vem os assucares do Brasil.

Meaning: References to "caixa-de-açucar" furniture are found in the Azores ... 1642-1700 ... and also in Lisbon, where in 1686 local joiners required permission to build with woods from the outside, namely those of the boxes that come with the sugars from Brazil.

Perhaps the sketch of box uploaded in post #10 could be illusory. Some of these boards would have considerable dimensions, specially those of the boxes exported by Brazil, which could carry up to 1000 Kgs. of sugar.

Thank you very much for the excellent references... I have obtained the full reference book on the style of Portuguese furniture from my side which should be here in a few weeks... I will publish the details from that. Meanwhile I will add whatever pictures are available to me here..From Oman and other regions around the Indian Ocean basin the products contained would have been spices, cloth and silver etc. Interesting notes on chests appear at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...Chests&f=false

[fernando]

Ah, the "caixas de liberdade"; a rather distinct typicality in its own right ... and in the due context. Those were acquired for the carrying of goods that crewmen of the India career were allowed to bring back, for their own trade. With its origin in India, where good wood was no problem, of a pattern directed to their accomodation aboard ship, namely within the "agasalhados", a space either allowed or paid, depending on passenger quality or crew rank. I wouldn't know what end these "arcas" had after being cleared in Lisbon, but i would venture they remained with their use as chests, as per their convenient dimensions.
Mind you, a darker angle is connected with chests not only being made of wood as, there are narrations that, when ships reached extreme negative conditions and starvation was at its peak, men would eat the leather of chests, among other diet varieties.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It was rumoured ..that the wood was some sort of Mahogany from Brasil, however, I believe it is actually Jackaranda from India and in the case of trimmings on some chests, rosewood also from India..The Iron work is interesting not least in that it is a European device; From the Islamic viewpoint they would never have a chest clad in iron since it is seen traditionally as a magnet for evil.
Refocusing upon the project belt it can be seen how similar the iron floral pins are on the belt and chests..and I would say the Indian decorative pin makers would have been making these items more or less in all the metalworking centres in India and of course Tibet.