Reference: THE ARMS OF GREECE

mariusgmioc · 12th July 2016, 01:33 PM

... AND HER BALKAN NEIGHBOURS IN THE OTTOMAN PERIOD, by Robert Elgood

Just got it and it's brilliant!

A superb reference book on Ottoman weapons, lavishly illustrated, that should be part of every serious collector's library.

TVV · 12th July 2016, 04:40 PM

Agreed

ariel · 12th July 2016, 04:47 PM

No argument from me :-)))

kahnjar1 · 12th July 2016, 09:43 PM

I agree also....an absolute "must" for the library.
Stu

mariusgmioc · 12th July 2016, 10:25 PM

At least we all seem to agree on this one...

How boring...

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2016, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

At least we all seem to agree on this one...

How boring...

LOL!!!
Indeed

But here I gotta agree too. The works of Robert Elgood are an absolute must in any arms library. For me, his footnotes alone are a joy. These are 'browsing' books, beyond just being sound references.
The years of research he spent on this book are easily reflected in this volume, and if I recall, there was a big event in Athens as this was officially released.

ariel · 13th July 2016, 03:14 AM

I used to dream about a book of Persian arms and armor by Elgood.

But then I understood that it was a fruitless fantasy: Elgood is an ethnologist and an art historian deep in his heart. He thrives in multiethnic, multicultural, multireligious scenery with multiple variants of weapons, structural and artistic changes every 100 miles and every 50 years. Give him a pile of sabers with different handles, swords with blades of dazzling complexity, handles with convoluted religious motives and he will write a 500-page superb book that would read like old John Le Carre.

Persian weapons are beautiful, superbly crafted, but their patterns are terminally uniform and rigid: they achieved what they thought was "perfection" and stayed there. Compare an inexhaustible variety of Indian bladed weapons with the Persian panoply, consisting of shamshir, pesh kabz, khanjar and kard. That's it.

What could Elgood write about them? Twenty pages max.......

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2016, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I used to dream about a book of Persian arms and armor by Elgood.

But then I understood that it was a fruitless fantasy: Elgood is an ethnologist and an art historian deep in his heart. He thrives in multiethnic, multicultural, multireligious scenery with multiple variants of weapons, structural and artistic changes every 100 miles and every 50 years. Give him a pile of sabers with different handles, swords with blades of dazzling complexity, handles with convoluted religious motives and he will write a 500-page superb book that would read like old John Le Carre.

Persian weapons are beautiful, superbly crafted, but their patterns are terminally uniform and rigid: they achieved what they thought was "perfection" and stayed there. Compare an inexhaustible variety of Indian bladed weapons with the Persian panoply, consisting of shamshir, pesh kabz, khanjar and kard. That's it.

What could Elgood write about them? Twenty pages max.......

But what a twenty six pages it would be!!!!!!

kahnjar1 · 13th July 2016, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

LOL!!!
Indeed

But here I gotta agree too. The works of Robert Elgood are an absolute must in any arms library. For me, his footnotes alone are a joy. These are 'browsing' books, beyond just being sound references.
The years of research he spent on this book are easily reflected in this volume, and if I recall, there was a big event in Athens as this was officially released.

I agree with you Jim that Elgood's books are both browsing and reference books. I have a number of his works in my small library which from time to time are referred to, or just drooled over!....and of course, and maybe more importantly, the information contained therein is preserved for those who come after us when the present collectors are long passed.
Stu

mariusgmioc · 13th July 2016, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I used to dream about a book of Persian arms and armor by Elgood.

...

Maybe you'll better stop dreaming and get "Arms and Armor from Iran" by Manoucher Moshtagh Khorasani... if you don't have it already.

eftihis · 13th July 2016, 12:22 PM

Although i definitely agree that "the arms of Greece end..." it is a valuable book, i have to note that has a lot of mistakes, speaking for the subjects of the book that i have knowledge. For example the authour takes as granted information given by collectors, and especially from the collectors that financed the book. Themselves they got information from antique dealers, that have monetary interest in giving attribution and fake provenance to the pieces they sell...
He also presents fakes as originals, while i would expect from a writer like him to understand the forgeries. As a last weekness of the book ii would say that he gives no information at all for Cretan arms, having only photos of items desribed as cretan without any explanation of why this is so. (characteristics,typology etc)One pistol is labeled as cretan while is Algerian. If i find some time in the next days, i will show you some examples.

mariusgmioc · 13th July 2016, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Although i definitely agree that "the arms of Greece end..." it is a valuable book, i have to note that has a lot of mistakes, speaking for the subjects of the book that i have knowledge. For example the authour takes as granted information given by collectors, and especially from the collectors that financed the book. Themselves they got information from antique dealers, that have monetary interest in giving attribution and fake provenance to the pieces they sell...
He also presents fakes as originals, while i would expect from a writer like him to understand the forgeries. As a last weekness of the book ii would say that he gives no information at all for Cretan arms, having only photos of items desribed as cretan without any explanation of why this is so. (characteristics,typology etc)One pistol is labeled as cretan while is Algerian. If i find some time in the next days, i will show you some examples.

As I have no deeper knowledge pertaining this topic, I cannot agree or disagree with you, but I would certainly like very much to learn about what your arguments are, in order to educate myself on the subject.

Regards,

Marius

PS: I said earlier that nobody is perfect and we are all prone to making mistakes. (even myself...

)

ariel · 13th July 2016, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Maybe you'll better stop dreaming and get "Arms and Armor from Iran" by Manoucher Moshtagh Khorasani... if you don't have it already.

I have had it for years.

Exactly because of it, I have been dreaming about a book on Persian arms written by a professional:-)))

Roland_M · 13th July 2016, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Exactly because of it, I have been dreaming about a book on Persian arms written by a professional:-)))

The scientific investigation of and Persian arms and wootz begun in the very late 18th century (George Pearson, 1795) and some years later by Antonio Crivelli from Italy.
This means the scientific knowledge about wootz was gathered, shortly before the production of wootz ended.

All we know from the original wootzmakers are some names like Kirk Narduban, Chora Khorasan and so on but absolutely nothing scientific.

Except from tons of guesses, we know almost nothing for sure.

Try to find out the secret of the dramatic cutting power of a Kilij and Shamshir and you will understand what I mean. Tip: a good Japanese Katana Mei will know the answer, it's more than the deep curvature.

Roland

digenis · 13th July 2016, 03:16 PM

I enjoyed the book. However, I do think the author shortchanged actual Greek weapons manufacture, silver smith work from Jannina in Epirus and as previously mentioned Cretan and island work in general. In a way I think the book is "lazy" since in only discusses broadly known facts about Balkan weapons manufacturing centers. A good reference book but I think the author missed an opportunity to write the holy grail of Ottoman weapons cataloging national characteristics to the greatest degree possible. But then that would suck part of the air out of this forum...

ariel · 14th July 2016, 12:05 AM

Roland_M,

Can we concentrate on the book, please?

If you want to start a thread about practical advantages of wootz, shamshirs etc., I am sure you will find quite a lot of people to talk to.
We had these discussions ( often very heated ones) for years and they never failed to attract participants.

12th July 2016, 01:33 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Reference: THE ARMS OF GREECE ... AND HER BALKAN NEIGHBOURS IN THE OTTOMAN PERIOD, by Robert Elgood Just got it and it's brilliant! A superb reference book on Ottoman weapons, lavishly illustrated, that should be part of every serious collector's library. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 12th July 2016 at 04:05 PM.

12th July 2016, 04:40 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	Agreed

12th July 2016, 04:47 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No argument from me :-)))

12th July 2016, 09:43 PM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	I agree also....an absolute "must" for the library. Stu

12th July 2016, 10:25 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	At least we all seem to agree on this one... How boring...

13th July 2016, 03:14 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I used to dream about a book of Persian arms and armor by Elgood. But then I understood that it was a fruitless fantasy: Elgood is an ethnologist and an art historian deep in his heart. He thrives in multiethnic, multicultural, multireligious scenery with multiple variants of weapons, structural and artistic changes every 100 miles and every 50 years. Give him a pile of sabers with different handles, swords with blades of dazzling complexity, handles with convoluted religious motives and he will write a 500-page superb book that would read like old John Le Carre. Persian weapons are beautiful, superbly crafted, but their patterns are terminally uniform and rigid: they achieved what they thought was "perfection" and stayed there. Compare an inexhaustible variety of Indian bladed weapons with the Persian panoply, consisting of shamshir, pesh kabz, khanjar and kard. That's it. What could Elgood write about them? Twenty pages max.......

13th July 2016, 12:22 PM	#11
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Although i definitely agree that "the arms of Greece end..." it is a valuable book, i have to note that has a lot of mistakes, speaking for the subjects of the book that i have knowledge. For example the authour takes as granted information given by collectors, and especially from the collectors that financed the book. Themselves they got information from antique dealers, that have monetary interest in giving attribution and fake provenance to the pieces they sell... He also presents fakes as originals, while i would expect from a writer like him to understand the forgeries. As a last weekness of the book ii would say that he gives no information at all for Cretan arms, having only photos of items desribed as cretan without any explanation of why this is so. (characteristics,typology etc)One pistol is labeled as cretan while is Algerian. If i find some time in the next days, i will show you some examples.

13th July 2016, 03:16 PM	#15
digenis Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 48	I enjoyed the book. However, I do think the author shortchanged actual Greek weapons manufacture, silver smith work from Jannina in Epirus and as previously mentioned Cretan and island work in general. In a way I think the book is "lazy" since in only discusses broadly known facts about Balkan weapons manufacturing centers. A good reference book but I think the author missed an opportunity to write the holy grail of Ottoman weapons cataloging national characteristics to the greatest degree possible. But then that would suck part of the air out of this forum...

14th July 2016, 12:05 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Roland_M, Can we concentrate on the book, please? If you want to start a thread about practical advantages of wootz, shamshirs etc., I am sure you will find quite a lot of people to talk to. We had these discussions ( often very heated ones) for years and they never failed to attract participants.