help with identity & origin

mavi1970 · 19th February 2006, 02:26 PM

just wondering if anyone has any idea about this yataghan and its origin, intricate brass chased handle, and brass covered wood scabbard. designs on blade might signify caucusus, or eastern territory but handle looks more greek. thanks ahead of time

Dom · 19th February 2006, 06:18 PM

Hi
it's seem that there are 2 crosses on the blade, so, could come Christian area, never a Muslim could accepted such decor like that.
should be an indication

à +

Dom

mavi1970 · 19th February 2006, 07:02 PM

thanks for your information, but i dont know if those would be classified as crosses, i wonder if something else?? I really dont think it would be a christian yataghan, i never heard of those.

ariel · 19th February 2006, 08:05 PM

As a matter of fact, I wanted to bid on it but, in the Olympic spirit " May the strongest one win".

It is an interesting one. Artzi had a similar one and thought it had some Eastern European roots because of the motives on the blade. Serbian? Bulgarian? I agree that the "crosses" have no religious significance: just artistic decoration. The handle is especially interesting: is it lost wax?

TVV · 19th February 2006, 09:32 PM

Nice and interesting yataghan, I was watching this one on eBay too. I do not think it is from Bulgaria, as the yatagans usually found in Bulgaria have curved blades. I thought straight blades are characteristic of Greek yataghans, aren't they?
Now how about the eyelashes marks? Where would they point to? To me it appears that this piece exhibits a mixture of styles from Greece and the Caucasus, which is not so surprising considering the chaos and movement of peoples within the Ottoman empire. Many Circassians were given lands in the Balkans by the Sultan in an attempt to provide a counterbalance to the Christians in an era, when nationalism and independence movements were on a rise.
Whatever it turns out to be, it is deffinitely a great and intriguing piece, congratulations.

erlikhan · 20th February 2006, 09:05 PM

My opinion will be quiet different. I have been seeing straight or curved yataghans having the same characteristics of hilt,scabbard and even the blade in the last few weeks(all on ebay), many more than all I saw in last years. The cast brass or copper? hilt and scabbard works look not beautiful but easy to make,cheap and crude to me, and I think it should have looked even more crude to wealthy people of the period,who used to order these swords for themselves. Much better samples of such brass or copper work can be and are done for not much money in all middle east, or Gaziantep town in Turkey. Much easier and cheaper than walrus,silver, or even horn ones. Plus the etching style on the blade is poor and unesthetical, and the saw stamps look unrelated and artifical. Such blades,even better ones are still produced not only in some centers in middle east ,but perhaps somewhere else too. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, these are just my own opinions and what I feel and they can be totally wrong.

regards

not2sharp · 20th February 2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

I have been seeing straight or curved yataghans having the same characteristics of hilt,scabbard and even the blade in the last few weeks, many more than all I saw in last years.

How can we even begin to gage the age of this example?

n2s

erlikhan · 20th February 2006, 09:56 PM

It must be quiet new. Every single part of it,and its decorations can be made with better quality,more logical by historical culture facts and for cheap prices today.So can it be antique?

mavi1970 · 21st February 2006, 04:39 AM

me again... nobody's feelings have been hurt, especially not mine, but in this case i think you might be incorrect. the age of this example is not a cheap reproduction, i have seen new copies, which i also have come across, and those are quite crude in manufacture. but this sword with its detail, does not exude any newness to it, even the brass work does not have the marks of electric devices. even the scabbard with amount of mold and decay on the wood inside can not be something copied recently. its not a matter of being new, just how old I guess which is my question. Or could it be an old sword where the horn was replaced to make the sword look more exotic in years past, I dont know. I guess thats something that can never be known.

not2sharp · 21st February 2006, 05:30 AM

Quote:

I guess thats something that can never be known.

Can you post a more detailed set of photos? Including some closeup photos/scans of the metalwork on the blade, hilt, and mounts.

n2s

ham · 21st February 2006, 05:42 AM

Gentlemen,

As noted by various members above, yatagans were indigenous to a number of areas in the Ottoman Empire, and were still carried in isolated ones until as late as WWII; it has been observed by some ethnographers even later, in fact.
A straight or curved blade seems a matter of personal taste, one finds them in greater or lesser numbers throughout the Empire; it is not the best indicator of origin. The "jaw" marks struck in pairs on the blade at least suggest E. Europe. The large,stepped ears however, point to the Balkans. The wheel motifs chiselled on the blade are found from Hungary down through European Turkey. The embossed and engraved brasswork on hilt and scabbard are typical of Albanian, or Arnavut, work-- it is comparable with that found on the so-called rattail pistols of that region.
For these reasons, it probably is Albanian or from closeby. And an excellent example of the type incidentally, probably made between 1850-1890.

Sincerely,

Ham

Valjhun · 21st February 2006, 08:54 AM

My personal opinion is, that it is a modern copy. Why? Just like Erlikhan said + I can add:
- Defintely not Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro. Far too poor quality and totally different manufacture
- Verry poor looking
- Really too much of them on ebay recently

In case it is original, wich again I sincerely doubt it is, like ham said, an albanian piece.

erlikhan · 21st February 2006, 09:25 AM

The blade itself can be old too,no problem with that.There can be a simple, undecorated old yatagan blade,even with a damaged hilt. That old blade can have its original scabbard wreck with old wood too. We see hundreds of them. They can be upgraded chiselling the blade, making a new hilt, covering the scabbard with new leather, silver or brass etc. A skillful metal artist doesnt have to use modern production methods to make such upgrades, and he must not use them. Look at the chiselling on the blade. it is too shallowly chiselled into the steel and drawn with no or very little attention.If an artist of Ottoman time did that work, he would have to look for a new job in a short time. There are many masters who would do much better even in today's souvenir focused traditional arts production centers like Syria,Iran or Gaziantep in Turkey and would not cost much.The easiest way possible to restore an old blade in a rich looking illusion. The scabbard's brass or copper work is like that too. Doesn't reflect the quality and nobility of past's skills at all. It tries to give a rich impression as if too much effort and care was spent to produce it,but in fact the reverse.

TVV · 21st February 2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

How can we even begin to gage the age of this example?

n2s

Good point. I find it hard to judge the quality of the workmanship from the pictures posted: they are a bit too dark to allow details to be seen. Yataghans that I have handled always exhibit a 5 mm hardened edge? Does this one have it?

Flavio · 21st February 2006, 05:07 PM

Hello, this is ended. What do you think about this?

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

TVV · 21st February 2006, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hello, this is ended. What do you think about this?

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

Considering the patina on the brass band on the hilt, the scabbard appears to be a recent replacement. Another suspect thing is the six pointed star. I think there was a discussion on this symbol:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=star+david

I am sure the rest will add more comments, but to me this appears as an old yataghan with a recently (and poorly) embellished blade and a new scabbard, or maybe even only the hilt was genuinely old.

Valjhun · 21st February 2006, 09:14 PM

I have exactly the same opinion as thatone ( btw almost the same), or a lot of other similar pieces: Bosnia-Montenegro 19th century piece. I do not like the scabbard too, thou. That star maybe indicates that the owner was a jew, if that's the case it is more Bosnia than Montenegro.

erlikhan · 21st February 2006, 10:46 PM

The koftgari on the blade is original. David's star is original too and was always used by Ottomans and perhaps other Muslims of the period as a talisman.Was prefered by pirates and any kind of warriors for good fortune and wealth. The hilt is original with copper bands/corals (or coral imitating red glass beads??). The white metal scabbard is later but hard to decide if a simple period restoration or a modern one. The chiselling with the tulip drawing is pure Turkish according to me . Such simple decoration is often seen on not expensive antique samples as well. Nice. I wish the seller knew English or tried to market it internationally

mavi1970 · 22nd February 2006, 03:44 AM

i took a few more pictures of this sword, but again with my digital camera, its the best i can do. and the indentations of the "eye lashes" as they are called are deep 1 - 2.5 mm, including the 6 dots , 3 per side of the lashes.

eftihis · 22nd February 2006, 03:04 PM

Hallo friends,
I am posting photos of a Greek knife i have, which has etched the exact same symbols on blade. It is dated 1906, and have the name in Greek of the owner or manufacturer (Papadimitriou) Maybe this design is not exclusively Greek, but can be an indication that the blade is from Greece. Regarding the brass work i do not think is cast, it looks more than embossed to me, and also there is damage in the mouth of the scabbard, i do n ot think that somebody would damage a reproduction to be more persuasive.
The brass work reminds me Albanian Rat tail pistols as Ham says, but again we speak about an era and place that people, traders and craftsmen mooved arround, and also borders of ethnicities were not so much defined.

Regarding the Solomon star on the other yataghan, it is purely talismanic, for good luck, and this belief is not among muslims only. In an unpublishe book of Pavlos Vlastos, (a great Cretan folklorist -laograph we say), i read in the chapter about "spells and protective magic talisman of Crete" that this symbol is for "good luck" and another variation for "protect you against weapons"!!! Then it is obvious why it exists in so many yataghans, it is to protect you from the weapon of the oponent, and if you notice you will see that most times is in the external side of the blade, the one tat the opponent would face if you have the swordon your right hand.
Regards to all!

Dom · 25th February 2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

I am posting photos of a Greek knife i have, which has etched the exact same symbols on blade. It is dated 1906, and have the name in Greek of the owner or manufacturer (Papadimitriou) ..snip..

step by step here we are

as I suggest it, the decor is not in accordance with origine; Muslim countries
I extract the 2 principal part of decor
- 1 style flower with 6 petals
- 1 webbed or Byzantine cross
it last decoration, I repeat myself

is not easy for a good Moslem to associate a croos decor on a blade carried by him, but by a Greek no problem

the Greek Moslems are rarer than one Turkish Christian

in Sofia mosque (St Sophia) in the marble was engraved exactly the same type of crosses,
all must of them have been erased when the church became a mosque

à +

Dom

Tim Simmons · 25th February 2006, 10:38 AM

I do not know anything about this except the eared handle grips have been cast and although the picture is not that clear, most probably from wax originals. Tim

ariel · 25th February 2006, 03:49 PM

Going back to the origial Yataghan in this discussion thread: here is another one just like that.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Straight-Bl...QQcmdZViewItem

Any food for thought? Personally, I do not believe it is a modern replacement just something we do not know much about.....

Dom · 25th February 2006, 04:47 PM

you are right Ariel, old weapon, but that no embellishment may be posterior comes to disturb the identification

the stamping of the other blade is certainly recent, without relationship to its origin, and is creating us a trouble

à +

Dom

mavi1970 · 25th February 2006, 05:30 PM

I jsut looked at the sword that ended and that was noticed as being similair, the ears of that yataghan have the brass work covering probably either metal or something else (plated brass), it is evident with the center rib where the brass plating has cracked and the thickness is seen. Whereas the one I have the ears are actually cast brass, and two full peices one for either ear, then the center has a black spacer of either bone or wood, then the actual blade extension. So its quite different manufactures. It is very confusing now to actually place an origin, but i think as discussed it might be christian, maybe greek-ottoman, so a very rare peice indeed. thanks for your help. this is such a nice site to discuss items people own and collect. keep up the good work.

eftihis · 27th February 2006, 10:17 PM

Hi,
I am posting photos of a long straight yataghan dagger, which has a brass scabbard. But the decoration here is engraved. I believe that it is from North Greece or at least Balkan area. All these examples we saw are connected ithink.

mavi1970 · 28th February 2006, 01:10 AM

similair in materials used, but still the one I have is greatly different in style, and I haven't seen anything close to it anywhere.

19th February 2006, 02:26 PM	#1
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	help with identity & origin just wondering if anyone has any idea about this yataghan and its origin, intricate brass chased handle, and brass covered wood scabbard. designs on blade might signify caucusus, or eastern territory but handle looks more greek. thanks ahead of time Attached Images

20th February 2006, 09:05 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	My opinion will be quiet different. I have been seeing straight or curved yataghans having the same characteristics of hilt,scabbard and even the blade in the last few weeks(all on ebay), many more than all I saw in last years. The cast brass or copper? hilt and scabbard works look not beautiful but easy to make,cheap and crude to me, and I think it should have looked even more crude to wealthy people of the period,who used to order these swords for themselves. Much better samples of such brass or copper work can be and are done for not much money in all middle east, or Gaziantep town in Turkey. Much easier and cheaper than walrus,silver, or even horn ones. Plus the etching style on the blade is poor and unesthetical, and the saw stamps look unrelated and artifical. Such blades,even better ones are still produced not only in some centers in middle east ,but perhaps somewhere else too. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, these are just my own opinions and what I feel and they can be totally wrong. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 20th February 2006 at 09:48 PM.

21st February 2006, 05:42 AM	#11
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, As noted by various members above, yatagans were indigenous to a number of areas in the Ottoman Empire, and were still carried in isolated ones until as late as WWII; it has been observed by some ethnographers even later, in fact. A straight or curved blade seems a matter of personal taste, one finds them in greater or lesser numbers throughout the Empire; it is not the best indicator of origin. The "jaw" marks struck in pairs on the blade at least suggest E. Europe. The large,stepped ears however, point to the Balkans. The wheel motifs chiselled on the blade are found from Hungary down through European Turkey. The embossed and engraved brasswork on hilt and scabbard are typical of Albanian, or Arnavut, work-- it is comparable with that found on the so-called rattail pistols of that region. For these reasons, it probably is Albanian or from closeby. And an excellent example of the type incidentally, probably made between 1850-1890. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by ham; 21st February 2006 at 06:22 AM.

21st February 2006, 08:54 AM	#12
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	My personal opinion is, that it is a modern copy. Why? Just like Erlikhan said + I can add: - Defintely not Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro. Far too poor quality and totally different manufacture - Verry poor looking - Really too much of them on ebay recently In case it is original, wich again I sincerely doubt it is, like ham said, an albanian piece. Last edited by Valjhun; 21st February 2006 at 09:30 AM.

21st February 2006, 09:14 PM	#17
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I have exactly the same opinion as thatone ( btw almost the same), or a lot of other similar pieces: Bosnia-Montenegro 19th century piece. I do not like the scabbard too, thou. That star maybe indicates that the owner was a jew, if that's the case it is more Bosnia than Montenegro. Attached Images Last edited by Valjhun; 21st February 2006 at 10:24 PM.

19th February 2006, 06:18 PM	#2
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi it's seem that there are 2 crosses on the blade, so, could come Christian area, never a Muslim could accepted such decor like that. should be an indication à + Dom

19th February 2006, 07:02 PM	#3
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	thanks for your information, but i dont know if those would be classified as crosses, i wonder if something else?? I really dont think it would be a christian yataghan, i never heard of those.

19th February 2006, 08:05 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As a matter of fact, I wanted to bid on it but, in the Olympic spirit " May the strongest one win". It is an interesting one. Artzi had a similar one and thought it had some Eastern European roots because of the motives on the blade. Serbian? Bulgarian? I agree that the "crosses" have no religious significance: just artistic decoration. The handle is especially interesting: is it lost wax?

19th February 2006, 09:32 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	Nice and interesting yataghan, I was watching this one on eBay too. I do not think it is from Bulgaria, as the yatagans usually found in Bulgaria have curved blades. I thought straight blades are characteristic of Greek yataghans, aren't they? Now how about the eyelashes marks? Where would they point to? To me it appears that this piece exhibits a mixture of styles from Greece and the Caucasus, which is not so surprising considering the chaos and movement of peoples within the Ottoman empire. Many Circassians were given lands in the Balkans by the Sultan in an attempt to provide a counterbalance to the Christians in an era, when nationalism and independence movements were on a rise. Whatever it turns out to be, it is deffinitely a great and intriguing piece, congratulations.

20th February 2006, 09:56 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	It must be quiet new. Every single part of it,and its decorations can be made with better quality,more logical by historical culture facts and for cheap prices today.So can it be antique?

21st February 2006, 04:39 AM	#9
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	me again... nobody's feelings have been hurt, especially not mine, but in this case i think you might be incorrect. the age of this example is not a cheap reproduction, i have seen new copies, which i also have come across, and those are quite crude in manufacture. but this sword with its detail, does not exude any newness to it, even the brass work does not have the marks of electric devices. even the scabbard with amount of mold and decay on the wood inside can not be something copied recently. its not a matter of being new, just how old I guess which is my question. Or could it be an old sword where the horn was replaced to make the sword look more exotic in years past, I dont know. I guess thats something that can never be known.

21st February 2006, 09:25 AM	#13
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	The blade itself can be old too,no problem with that.There can be a simple, undecorated old yatagan blade,even with a damaged hilt. That old blade can have its original scabbard wreck with old wood too. We see hundreds of them. They can be upgraded chiselling the blade, making a new hilt, covering the scabbard with new leather, silver or brass etc. A skillful metal artist doesnt have to use modern production methods to make such upgrades, and he must not use them. Look at the chiselling on the blade. it is too shallowly chiselled into the steel and drawn with no or very little attention.If an artist of Ottoman time did that work, he would have to look for a new job in a short time. There are many masters who would do much better even in today's souvenir focused traditional arts production centers like Syria,Iran or Gaziantep in Turkey and would not cost much.The easiest way possible to restore an old blade in a rich looking illusion. The scabbard's brass or copper work is like that too. Doesn't reflect the quality and nobility of past's skills at all. It tries to give a rich impression as if too much effort and care was spent to produce it,but in fact the reverse.

21st February 2006, 05:07 PM	#15
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello, this is ended. What do you think about this? http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

21st February 2006, 10:46 PM	#18
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	The koftgari on the blade is original. David's star is original too and was always used by Ottomans and perhaps other Muslims of the period as a talisman.Was prefered by pirates and any kind of warriors for good fortune and wealth. The hilt is original with copper bands/corals (or coral imitating red glass beads??). The white metal scabbard is later but hard to decide if a simple period restoration or a modern one. The chiselling with the tulip drawing is pure Turkish according to me . Such simple decoration is often seen on not expensive antique samples as well. Nice. I wish the seller knew English or tried to market it internationally

22nd February 2006, 03:44 AM	#19
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	i took a few more pictures of this sword, but again with my digital camera, its the best i can do. and the indentations of the "eye lashes" as they are called are deep 1 - 2.5 mm, including the 6 dots , 3 per side of the lashes. Attached Images

22nd February 2006, 03:04 PM	#20
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Maybe is Greek! Hallo friends, I am posting photos of a Greek knife i have, which has etched the exact same symbols on blade. It is dated 1906, and have the name in Greek of the owner or manufacturer (Papadimitriou) Maybe this design is not exclusively Greek, but can be an indication that the blade is from Greece. Regarding the brass work i do not think is cast, it looks more than embossed to me, and also there is damage in the mouth of the scabbard, i do n ot think that somebody would damage a reproduction to be more persuasive. The brass work reminds me Albanian Rat tail pistols as Ham says, but again we speak about an era and place that people, traders and craftsmen mooved arround, and also borders of ethnicities were not so much defined. Regarding the Solomon star on the other yataghan, it is purely talismanic, for good luck, and this belief is not among muslims only. In an unpublishe book of Pavlos Vlastos, (a great Cretan folklorist -laograph we say), i read in the chapter about "spells and protective magic talisman of Crete" that this symbol is for "good luck" and another variation for "protect you against weapons"!!! Then it is obvious why it exists in so many yataghans, it is to protect you from the weapon of the oponent, and if you notice you will see that most times is in the external side of the blade, the one tat the opponent would face if you have the swordon your right hand. Regards to all! Attached Images

25th February 2006, 10:38 AM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I do not know anything about this except the eared handle grips have been cast and although the picture is not that clear, most probably from wax originals. Tim

25th February 2006, 03:49 PM	#23
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Going back to the origial Yataghan in this discussion thread: here is another one just like that. http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Straight-Bl...QQcmdZViewItem Any food for thought? Personally, I do not believe it is a modern replacement just something we do not know much about.....

25th February 2006, 04:47 PM	#24
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	you are right Ariel, old weapon, but that no embellishment may be posterior comes to disturb the identification the stamping of the other blade is certainly recent, without relationship to its origin, and is creating us a trouble à + Dom

25th February 2006, 05:30 PM	#25
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	I jsut looked at the sword that ended and that was noticed as being similair, the ears of that yataghan have the brass work covering probably either metal or something else (plated brass), it is evident with the center rib where the brass plating has cracked and the thickness is seen. Whereas the one I have the ears are actually cast brass, and two full peices one for either ear, then the center has a black spacer of either bone or wood, then the actual blade extension. So its quite different manufactures. It is very confusing now to actually place an origin, but i think as discussed it might be christian, maybe greek-ottoman, so a very rare peice indeed. thanks for your help. this is such a nice site to discuss items people own and collect. keep up the good work.

27th February 2006, 10:17 PM	#26
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hi, I am posting photos of a long straight yataghan dagger, which has a brass scabbard. But the decoration here is engraved. I believe that it is from North Greece or at least Balkan area. All these examples we saw are connected ithink. Attached Images Last edited by eftihis; 27th February 2006 at 10:42 PM.

28th February 2006, 01:10 AM	#27
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	similair in materials used, but still the one I have is greatly different in style, and I haven't seen anything close to it anywhere.