'military' KUKRI for comment

[thinreadline]

This is a kukri I bought from a family who claimed it had belonged to the father who had served in Burma in WW2 . Whilst the khaki cloth scabbard cover certainly loooks military and the size and weight of the weapon make it a formidable weapon , it does not conform to any of the official military patterns . It has the number 445 stamped on the blade but no other markings. Its weight without scabbard is 520 g , and its total length over the curve is 42 cm with the greatest width of the blade being 5 cm.

[spiral]

Nice kukri,

Could be a private purchase, or A unit purchased piece, possibly even unit manufactured. {usualy at Battalion level.} Could be ww2 or earlier kukri with a ww2 scabbard..

To be more certain, can you do a good close ups of the numbers & also a photo of the small knives as well please.

Spiral

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by spiral

Nice kukri,

Could be a private purchase, or A unit purchased piece, possibly even unit manufactured. {usualy at Battalion level.} Could be ww2 or earlier kukri with a ww2 scabbard..

To be more certain, can you do a good close ups of the numbers & also a photo of the small knives as well please.

Spiral

Thanks Spiral .. thats interesting . Pic of the small knives as requested... just cant get a decent pic of the numbers in close up sorry.

[sirupate]

Hello Thinreadline,

TRL;official military patterns

I believe you are talking about the Mk issued kukri?
All I.A., Regimental or Battalion issue kukri are 'Official' kukri.
Your rather nice find is a typical regimental issue kukri, post 1919, pre 1919 battalions would often have their own kukri made.
After 1919 due to re-organisation they would be regimental issue, and when times required due to an influx of recruits due to the WW's for example I.A. kukri which includes Mk issue were distributed as needs arose (sometimes Battalions opted for Mk issue).
The kind of scabbard the kukri is in, was in use both pre and during WW2, one thing for sure is that it is genuine!! Cheers Simon
PS If the person that owned it was not in the Gurkhas, he could have acquired it off a Gurkha, not unknown!!

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Hello Thinreadline,

I believe you are talking about the Mk issued kukri?
All I.A., Regimental or Battalion issue kukri are 'Official' kukri.
Your rather nice find is a typical regimental issue kukri, post 1919, pre 1919 battalions would often have their own kukri made.
After 1919 due to re-organisation they would be regimental issue, and when times required due to an influx of recruits due to the WW's for example I.A. kukri which includes Mk issue were distributed as needs arose (sometimes Battalions opted for Mk issue).
The kind of scabbard the kukri is in, was in use both pre and during WW2, one thing for sure is that it is genuine!! Cheers Simon
PS If the person that owned it was not in the Gurkhas, he could have acquired it off a Gurkha, not unknown!!

Thanks Simon .. that is very reassuring , this means that I will keep it ! I am told that the owner was a Chindit in the Duke of Wellingtons Regiment.
Richmond

[spiral]

The small knives are ww2 era, Hard to date kukri more exactlly without bieng able to study the font.

Despite Simons statement ,Some battalions still made or bought thier own kukri during ww2 due to supply difficulities during ww2 with the main pattern kukri.This is well documented.

If the number matches the Duke of Welligntons it was probably private purchase, stamped in the bazzar or kukri factors front shop.Due you have the soldiers surname? ill check his records.

Personaly i expect Gurkha.Kuamon or Garhwall regiment history is more likely.But Ive been mistaken on occasion.

Spiral

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by spiral

The small knives are ww2 era, Hard to date kukri more exactlly without bieng able to study the font.

Despite Simons statement ,Some battalions still made or bought thier own kukri during ww2 due to supply difficulities during ww2 with the main pattern kukri.This is well documented.

If the number matches the Duke of Welligntons it was probably private purchase, stamped in the bazzar or kukri factors front shop.Due you have the soldiers surname? ill check his records.

Personaly i expect Gurkha.Kuamon or Garhwall regiment history is more likely.But Ive been mistaken on occasion.

Spiral

Yes the name was Matchett .... I believe he started off in the Kings Liverpools and was then transferred whilst in Burma. I will try to get a decent shot of the numbers on Sat. I would be very interested in whatever you can turn up on this. Thanks for your interest.

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by spiral

The small knives are ww2 era, Hard to date kukri more exactlly without bieng able to study the font.

Despite Simons statement ,Some battalions still made or bought thier own kukri during ww2 due to supply difficulities during ww2 with the main pattern kukri.This is well documented.

If the number matches the Duke of Welligntons it was probably private purchase, stamped in the bazzar or kukri factors front shop.Due you have the soldiers surname? ill check his records.

Personaly i expect Gurkha.Kuamon or Garhwall regiment history is more likely.But Ive been mistaken on occasion.

Spiral

This is the best I can do with the numbers ... hope it helps.

[sirupate]

Hi Thinredline, here is a couple of my old WW2 IA kukri;

A great photo of two Gurkhas in Italy with their IA issue kukri;

Close up of the kukri

The type of kukri carried

For information regarding the numbers on your kukri, I would try David Harding via the Gurkha Museum in Winchester, if you send good quality photo's to them that is who they would use. He is a a top chap and the GM's weapons expert, as well as being the 10th GR historian.

Spiral; Despite Simons statement ,Some battalions still made or bought thier own kukri during ww2 due to supply difficulities during ww2 with the main pattern kukri.This is well documented.

Proof of documentation please Jonathan.

The problems of supply in WW2, are well recorded, for example at Quetta (pre-1947 in India, now Pakistan) the 8th GR centre, by Autumm of 1943 they had an influx of 6,000 Gurkhas (mainly recruits), and although supplies had improved, they only had three rifles per five men, one LMG per platoon and so on.

The supply problems also probably account for the variations in the 8th GR kukri blade styles that occured, which was probably the result of the regiment having to use various manufactures to meet the demand of supply. It would also account for a lot of 8th GR kukri in WW2 not being armourer marked, if you can imagine from recruiting a few score of men (score=20) a year to a few thousand, some overload, plus of course the supply problem that were involved as well, along with the fact that most of the armourers were away with the active Battalions.

Major-General M. Callan (WW2); recalls “I am sure I wore a kukri in combat uniform (jungle green), a Quarter Master (QM) issue like everybody else in the battalion, which must have been 90% ‘hostilities only’ enlistments apart from only one BO (the CO) and GOs and older ORs from pre-war”.

Captain McCalla (WW2) ‘All men carried regulation IA kukris’

Captain Bhaktasing; "They were not issued kukri while they were recruited in the recruiting centre. A kukri was issued for jungle training phase after he completed basic training that was not as smooth as nowadays.
He has had taken the kukri with him after his completion of training and posted to the regiment 2 GR"

Major Deny’s Drayton (7th GR WWII) who ended up at Monty Casino, said;
"That Gurkhas only carried IA issue kukri"

[thinreadline]

Thank you sirupate ... yours looks just like mine and the ones in pics seem the same as well. This is excellent.

[sirupate]

A Pleasure

[spiral]

Generaly I ignore Simon Hengle of Tora Replica kukri supplies, as life is to short to waste on such things ,but a request for documentry evidence I do view as legitamate on this occasion.

I wish he would also supply documentry evidence of his statements.

Jonathan Sedwell AKA spiral

Originally Posted by sirupate

Your rather nice find is a typical regimental issue kukri, post 1919, pre 1919 battalions would often have their own kukri made.
After 1919 due to re-organisation they would be regimental issue, and when times required due to an influx of recruits due to the WW's for example I.A. kukri which includes Mk issue were distributed as needs arose (sometimes Battalions opted for Mk issue)

To which I stated...

Originally Posted by spiral

Despite Simons statement ,Some battalions still made or bought thier own kukri during ww2 due to supply difficulities during ww2 with the main pattern kukri.This is well documented.
Spiral

Hence Simon Hengles request....

Originally Posted by sirupate

Proof of documentation please Jonathan.

A legitamate request... quite a reliable source realy.

The Official Regimental history of the 8th Gurkha Rifles.

By Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford.

Published in 1952 ,


Or a more amusing source.

Originally Posted by sirupate

The use of outside Manufactures by Battalions was of course pretty common.

FromLinky... {Bottom of second page.}



Jonathan Sedwell AKA spiral

[sirupate]

Generaly I ignore Simon Hengle of Tora Replica kukri supplies,

Thanks for the advert Jonathan

Or a more amusing source.

Ah an article from four years ago, re-search still ongoing and views and opinions change.

The Official Regimental history of the 8th Gurkha Rifles. By Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford. Published in 1952

A very rare book, which seems to be your main source, as you have posted scanned pictures of the text you refer to in other books in the past, could you do the same again Jonathan?

[Lew]

Just keep it civil guys!

[sirupate]

I am Lew, many thanks Simon

[spiral]

Originally Posted by sirupate

A very rare book

Click Me!



Nice enough Lew?

[sirupate]

Rare and expensive Spiral! So as you already have the book, can you scan and post like you have done before?

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by spiral

Click Me!

ROTF!! I clicked it and nearly fell off the chair laughing.

[sirupate]

It is pretty clever, but it would be nice if Jonathan could oblige with a copy of the text though

[Gavin Nugent]

I say spend the money, 150quid is nix in the bigger picture. I certainly spend more money that I care to think about on book titles found within these pages and others...I actually don't think I am far off obtaining almost every titile mentioned here, the books are worth than any weapon could be in my opinion. If one is serious about learning, this is what has to be done, sometimes you just can't sit and wait for free handouts.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

ROTF!! I clicked it and nearly fell off the chair laughing.

I was hoping it would open the link to a page that was scanned as other books are on the next....next best thing, see above

[thinreadline]

How right you are Gav .. the number of collectors I know who are too mean to buy a £30 reference book .. but will waste £100 on an item that is wrong !

Originally Posted by freebooter

I say spend the money, 150quid is nix in the bigger picture. I certainly spend more money that I care to think about on book titles found within these pages and others...I actually don't think I am far off obtaining almost every titile mentioned here, the books are worth than any weapon could be in my opinion. If one is serious about learning, this is what has to be done, sometimes you just can't sit and wait for free handouts.

Gav

[sirupate]

Gentleman, I never said I didn't have it, I have queried Spirals quotes here;
Misleading and misquotes from Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Gentleman, I never said I didn't have it, I have queried Spirals quotes here;
Misleading and misquotes from Spiral

No you didnt, but its still interesting that on your lets try & malign Jonathan some more thread, you state.

Originally Posted by sirupate

This is the actual written piece in the book by Huxford, and confirms what I thought, that the REGIMENT dealt with kukri, although not quite the way I thought with the 8th.

That sounds like a rather recent learning curve to me. Perhaps a contradiction to your above statement? & What was all that pleading about it bieng an expesive book & wanting me to scan it for you?

All deliberatly malicious & missleading whichever way you look at it, actualy I am surprised the managment tolerate such behavoir.


spiral


p.s.
My repley to the the false & malicious allegation by simon Hengly of Tora kukris can also be found on the linked thread.

[spiral]

From the above linked thread.

Originally Posted by David

Well, i'm shutting down this thread until one of the other mods for this forum can sort out this childish behavior. Really gents...we can do better than this...

I agree David, Sadley I felt I have to defend myself against such malicios allegations though. After all this has been going on here & other forums ever since I left Simons personal forum several years ago.

Thank you for your time.

Jonathan AKA spiral

[sirupate]

My (Spiral) quote from. Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords "The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordanance supply." is tottaly accurate. the comment in quotes seemed relevant as that is part of thier history. I could have just as easily mentioned thier gallentry in ww2 or any other period.

The quote is accurate Jonathan, but not in the way it was linked to WW1; the original quote by you clearly associates that statement with WW1;

THE MYTH OF GURKHA RIFLEMAN CARRYING PRIVATE Spiral; 21st June 2010, 02:28 PM post 30 But just to add to Simons confusion. I always liked this bit published in 1952 in Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords Official history of the originaly Assam based 8th Gurkha Rifles. {I Think one battalion went to NWF about 1914 the other to France.} "The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordanance supply."

This I believe was very misleading.

Spiral;Such as the Document you quote to Ochterlony HQ, which deals with the Nusseree & Sirmoor battalions, neither of whom where regarded as Assam based Regiments, That Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords documentation was about!

Absolutely correct Jonathan, however you failed to supply the fact that it only applied until 1881, and in 1880 they were not Gurkha at that point, they were mainly Sikh, Hindustani, Assamese etc, hardly Gurkha! so the quote has no meaning in the context to the argument about Gurkhas.
Indeed right before the contents section of the book, it tells you they were not considered Goorkha until 1886, by the titles of the regiments supplied, so why use a quote that had in effect no relevance to Gurkhas?
Also it was not until 1893 that the Bengal Army by standing order had to become class structured regiments.

Spiral; we then come to your latest misleading & false critiscim of myself. Originally Posted by sirupate Spiral 9th January 2012, 11:46 AM post 12 Generaly I ignore Simon Hengle of Tora Replica kukri supplies, as life is to short to waste on such things ,but a request for documentry evidence I do view as legitamate on this occasion. A legitamate request... quite a reliable source realy. The Official Regimental history of the 8th Gurkha Rifles. By Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford. Published in 1952 , Hengle has then very carefully edited my full quote to make my statement appear missleading! As if I only Mentiond Huxford as the source not himself.

Jonathan this is my original quote, you used me as a secondary source only;

Spiral 'military' KUKRI for comment;
Spiral; 7th January 2012, 01:06 AM post 6
Despite Simons statement ,Some battalions still made or bought thier own kukri during ww2 due to supply difficulities during ww2 with the main pattern kukri.This is well documented.
Sirupate; 7th January 2012, 12:39 PM post 9
Proof of documentation please Jonathan. Spiral 9th January 2012, 11:46 AM post 12
Generaly I ignore Simon Hengle of Tora Replica kukri supplies, as life is to short to waste on such things ,but a request for documentry evidence I do view as legitamate on this occasion. A legitamate request... quite a reliable source realy. The Official Regimental history of the 8th Gurkha Rifles. By Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford. Published in 1952 ,

This quote of yours is a complete misquote of Huxford;

Despite Simons statement ,Some battalions still made or bought thier own kukri during ww2 due to supply difficulities during ww2 with the main pattern kukri.This is well documented

Huxford actually says that the Regimental Centre took over production of kukri, not the battalion, nor did he say that the battalion purchase kukri, THE REGIMENTAL CENTRE AT QUETTA MANUFACTURED THEIR KUKRI!!

Spiral; I would like to state to all, My statements & quotes were fully correct & not misleading. This can all be veryfied on the original threads, if anyone moderators or forumites is bothered enough to.

The above quotations and corrections by me, clearly show that to be wholly incorrect Jonathan.

You also took no notice of this quote Jonathan, which would have applied to all units considered or with the title Goorkha/Gurkha from this point on;
GENERAL ORDERS BY THE HONOURABLE THE GOVERNOR IN COUNCIL Fort William, 2nd May 1823.
these corps (The Nasiri & Sirmoor) are clothed, armed, equipt and supplied with Ammunition at the expense of the State....etc.

Now I respectfully request that you answer why you used these;
1. quote from Huxford; "The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordanance supply." in a quote about WW1, when it only applied to non Gurkha/Goorkha regiments pre 1881?

2. supposed and incorrect quote from Huxford; "Some battalions still made or bought thier own kukri during ww2 due to supply difficulities during ww2 with the main pattern kukri.This is well documented"

A straight forward reply would be much appreciated, cheers Simon

[thinreadline]

I am not really sure what this argument is all about and to be honest it is WAY too esoteric for me . I simply posted my kukri on here to see what members thought about it , particularly whether it could be described as a WW2 military example .
It certainly was not my intention to showcase a 'war' between two members .. especially as their issues with one another have nothing to do with my enquiry.
Could you two guys not just take your battle elsewhere please ?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by thinreadline

I am not really sure what this argument is all about and to be honest it is WAY too esoteric for me . I simply posted my kukri on here to see what members thought about it , particularly whether it could be described as a WW2 military example .
It certainly was not my intention to showcase a 'war' between two members .. especially as their issues with one another have nothing to do with my enquiry.
Could you two guys not just take your battle elsewhere please ?

Apologies to you.

Ive tried to avdoid Simon but I cant ignore such an attack on myself.

So I am merley defending myself against long term harresment & attempts at cyber intimidation.

As for Simons latest post, its virtualy the same as his one besmirching myself & fully answeard on the locked link.

I want nothing to do with simon, as I said early in this thread , life is to short to waiste on such things.

spiral

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by spiral

Apologies to you.

Ive tried to avdoid Simon but I cant ignore such an attack on myself.

So I am merley defending myself against long term harresment & attempts at cyber intimidation.

As for Simons latest post, its virtualy the same as his one besmirching myself & fully answeard on the locked link.

I want nothing to do with simon, as I said early in this thread , life is to short to waiste on such things.

spiral

I appreciate your apology and do understand the need to justify oneself , but sometimes its better just to ignore such things . Clearly there is some 'history' between you two !
I see what you mean re the continuation of the argument from the locked link on to my thread .

[sirupate]

Hello Thinredline,

I had originally, but I'm afraid Spiral brought it back on here on post 25, and all I ask is that Spiral answers the questions raised in the original new thread, that I did a link to.

However he misquote here on post 6;

Despite Simons statement ,Some battalions still made or bought thier own kukri during ww2 due to supply difficulities during ww2 with the main pattern kukri.This is well documented.

I then asked for proof of documentation on post 9, to which his reply was on post 12, And he said his reference was;

Spiral;A legitamate request... quite a reliable source realy. The Official Regimental history of the 8th Gurkha Rifles. By Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford. Published in 1952 ,

a totally inaccurate quote from Huxford's book.
The actual quote is this, no mention of buying privately or making their own at battalion level;
Huxford "“As Government kukri were unobtainable, the Centre (Regimental Centre at Quetta) developed its own kukri industry. A large number of kukri manufacturers and other skilled artisans were imported, and within a few months it was possible to equip all drafts with weapons of the finest design and make. Considering that only available material was scrap, such as springs from derelict motor cars and odds and ends of old metal parts, and that the workshops were covered huts with no facilities for manufacturer, these craftsmen put up a fine effort which astonished visitors.”

On the same post, He also used a post of mine from another forum which done about four years ago, which was only an opinion, and not documentary proof!!

It would therefore be courteous of him to explain his misquote, cheers Simon