Spanish Bilbo

[AHorsa]

Well, seems as it is Bilbo time

Dear All,

I would love to get your oppinion on this peace. Do you think everything is fine and belongs together?

Looking forward to your comments.

Best
Andi

[midelburgo]

Up to now, I have seen 14 swords of the 1728 model with that crowned T mark or related marks. Sometimes they look like a torch. Usually, they have another of 4 different marks of what seems names, but very hard to decipher (AYZIVILLA seems one of them). Most of them have a pommel similar to yours, but all are trooper versions of the four screws variety. Yours is the first one of officer type I have seen. They have decorated shells and more sculpted knuckle bow.

I have the theory that the crowned T 1728s are the production of the first years of the Fabrica de Toledo, after 1761, when they are no dated, nor they carry the crowned R of Royal Property. The standard 1728 from Toledo start to be numbered usually in 1771, although I have seen an example claimed to be 1764, and dragoon blades from Toledo are seen from 1769.

Because many of the T crowned swords have appeared in the USA, Juan Jose Perez thinks they could have been made in a Mexican workshop. In late years I have seen quite a number surfacing in Spain and UK. Those in the USA, I think they could have participated in Galvez campaigns in Louisiana and Florida.

The T crowned 1728s follow strictly 1762 ordenanza and have the same hilt dimensions as the post-1771 variety, excepting the pommel, with that long cut on the top. These pommels I have also seen in officer 1728s of the two screws variety, but not anymore post 1771 trooper swords. Usually, officers 172s8 have pommels easily distinguishable from those of troopers, but I am not so sure that would include the present kind.

2 screws seem to be an archaic choice, especially since 1762 ordenanza insisted on 4 screws. But officers did not follow always. It is unusual to find an officer 1728 without a motto on the blade (No me saques...; Por mi rey...) or a famous swordsmith attibution (Sahagvm, Sebastian Hernandez...).

Yours could be an older officer 1728 remounted with a 1761-1770 trooper blade and pommel, but there are not enough examples to be sure of this or the opposite possibility. The grip is a typical later replacement for these swords, probably made in Spain in the first half of XXth century. Tang has been repeened and bolts on the shell look industrial.

Last four pictures are from officers 1728s.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

Up to now, I have seen 14 swords of the 1728 model with that crowned T mark or related marks. Sometimes they look like a torch. Usually, they have another of 4 different marks of what seems names, but very hard to decipher (AYZIVILLA seems one of them). Most of them have a pommel similar to yours, but all are trooper versions of the four screws variety. Yours is the first one of officer type I have seen. They have decorated shells and more sculpted knuckle bow.

I have the theory that the crowned T 1728s are the production of the first years of the Fabrica de Toledo, after 1761, when they are no dated, nor they carry the crowned R of Royal Property. The standard 1728 from Toledo start to be numbered usually in 1771, although I have seen an example claimed to be 1764, and dragoon blades from Toledo are seen from 1769.

Because many of the T crowned swords have appeared in the USA, Juan Jose Perez thinks they could have been made in a Mexican workshop. In late years I have seen quite a number surfacing in Spain and UK. Those in the USA, I think they could have participated in Galvez campaigns in Louisiana and Florida.

The T crowned 1728s follow strictly 1762 ordenanza and have the same hilt dimensions as the post-1771 variety, excepting the pommel, with that long cut on the top. These pommels I have also seen in officer 1728s of the two screws variety, but not anymore post 1771 trooper swords. Usually, officers 172s8 have pommels easily distinguishable from those of troopers, but I am not so sure that would include the present kind.

2 screws seem to be an archaic choice, especially since 1762 ordenanza insisted on 4 screws. But officers did not follow always. It is unusual to find an officer 1728 without a motto on the blade (No me saques...; Por mi rey...) or a famous swordsmith attibution (Sahagvm, Sebastian Hernandez...).

Yours could be an older officer 1728 remounted with a 1761-1770 trooper blade and pommel, but there are not enough examples to be sure of this or the opposite possibility. The grip is a typical later replacement for these swords, probably made in Spain in the first half of XXth century. Tang has been repeened and bolts on the shell look industrial.

Last four pictures are from officers 1728s.

Midelburgo, this is one of the most impressive analysis and dissertations I have seen on these or pretty much any other Spanish colonial weapons to date! Thank you so much for this well presented detail. I have one of the AYZAVILLA examples and that was pretty much all I knew on it.....and that I believe one is shown in "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" bu Neumann (1973).

[AHorsa]

Very impressive and exact review, Midelburgo! Thank you very much for this!

[midelburgo]

You are wellcome.

Looking again your last picture, I think the pommel is not so much champagne cork as those of troopers, so probably came with the shells.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

You are wellcome.

Looking again your last picture, I think the pommel is not so much champagne cork as those of troopers, so probably came with the shells.

I love the opening line in this thread...……."Its Bilbo Time'!!! and this great analogy of the 'champagne cork' pommel

Just fun in looking at these intriguing swords, great input and examples, and light perspective. Thanks guys!