Old Indian Sword

[Miguel]

Hi Everyone, I would be grateful if you could inform me if this sword with a basket hilt is Maratha or Rajput with some idea of age. It is in a worn condition and looks to have been well used (and abused) by previous owners. From what my eyes can mke out of the decoration on the hilt it must have been quite a handsome weapon when new.
Thanking You in anticipation
Miguel

[BANDOOK]

GREETINGS LOOKS LIKE A FIRANGI SWORD TO ME,CHEERS

[Jim McDougall]

It is always exciting to me to see interest in the fascinating world of Indian arms and armour, and especially a genuine interest in not just collecting them as types or forms, but learning from them.

This is a wonderful example of what is most properly termed a 'Hindu basket hilt' as Miguel has described. The term 'firangi' is actually a sub classification which has been widely debated as to application but generally refers to a 'foreign' blade mounted in an Indian hilt. The term has typically exceeded its original use and become figuratively used by collectors more broadly to these type hilts.

It is queried how old and what group might have used this sword.
Typically the Hindu basket hilt is with a straight blade, usually double edged and characteristically has the bolsters at the forte reinforcing the mount .
As foreign blades began to enter India, the term firangi became emplaced accordingly. These account for many of the single edged (backsword) examples found later.

In this case, the blade does not appear 'foreign' (lack of fullering and blocked ricasso suggest non European), thus not 'firangi' (technically but colloquially of course either might be used).

It appears to be of good age, but highly cleaned (overcleaned in my view), note the shadow around the bolster where patination remains. This suggests the sword has been intact for some time, certainly into 19th century (perhaps earlier in the century)

So who might have used this?
Would it have been Maratha (often translated Mahratta) or Rajput?

The Marathas are known to have used the 'khanda' type hilt very early (the basket is believed post European contact) but they favored straight blades, as with the pata as well.

The Rajputs, to the northern regions were absorbed largely into the vast Maratha Empire of 1674-1818 .

Maratha warriors typically used straight blade khandas (firangi) or pata, but the Rajputs of course, while using the khanda notably, also favored the more well known curved sabre, the tulwar.

So the question is.......which would seem most likely?

We would look to the standard references ,Egerton, Pant, Rawson, Elgood etc. but might not find the exact answer, but by looking into the history and character of Rajput vs Maratha as warriors and favored style of fighting etc we might find answers.

Looking into the vast archives here would reveal many clues, and even online sources such as Wikipedia may be used in degree as benchmark for further study and review.

Not intending to play 'professor' here, but simply wanted to illustrate some of the factors to be considered in learning more on these weapons. To truly study them is fascinating and exciting, and brings new dimensions to collecting!

My notes here are mostly to reach the many readers out there, and I appreciate the forbearance of the many well seasoned and extremely knowledgeable contributors among our ranks.

[ibiloglu]

Thanks to all...
I am not finish with remove the lead...
It's not so easy. I don't want heat up the blade too much.
There are no Arabic letters on the blade.
Maybe in the marks....

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ibiloglu

Thanks to all...
I am not finish with remove the lead...
It's not so easy. I don't want heat up the blade too much.
There are no Arabic letters on the blade.
Maybe in the marks....

This I believe was intended for the concurrent thread on yataghan mkgs.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is always exciting to me to see interest in the fascinating world of Indian arms and armour, and especially a genuine interest in not just collecting them as types or forms, but learning from them.

This is a wonderful example of what is most properly termed a 'Hindu basket hilt' as Miguel has described. The term 'firangi' is actually a sub classification which has been widely debated as to application but generally refers to a 'foreign' blade mounted in an Indian hilt. The term has typically exceeded its original use and become figuratively used by collectors more broadly to these type hilts.

It is queried how old and what group might have used this sword.
Typically the Hindu basket hilt is with a straight blade, usually double edged and characteristically has the bolsters at the forte reinforcing the mount .
As foreign blades began to enter India, the term firangi became emplaced accordingly. These account for many of the single edged (backsword) examples found later.

In this case, the blade does not appear 'foreign' (lack of fullering and blocked ricasso suggest non European), thus not 'firangi' (technically but colloquially of course either might be used).

It appears to be of good age, but highly cleaned (overcleaned in my view), note the shadow around the bolster where patination remains. This suggests the sword has been intact for some time, certainly into 19th century (perhaps earlier in the century)

So who might have used this?
Would it have been Maratha (often translated Mahratta) or Rajput?

The Marathas are known to have used the 'khanda' type hilt very early (the basket is believed post European contact) but they favored straight blades, as with the pata as well.

The Rajputs, to the northern regions were absorbed largely into the vast Maratha Empire of 1674-1818 .

Maratha warriors typically used straight blade khandas (firangi) or pata, but the Rajputs of course, while using the khanda notably, also favored the more well known curved sabre, the tulwar.

So the question is.......which would seem most likely?

We would look to the standard references ,Egerton, Pant, Rawson, Elgood etc. but might not find the exact answer, but by looking into the history and character of Rajput vs Maratha as warriors and favored style of fighting etc we might find answers.

Looking into the vast archives here would reveal many clues, and even online sources such as Wikipedia may be used in degree as benchmark for further study and review.

Not intending to play 'professor' here, but simply wanted to illustrate some of the factors to be considered in learning more on these weapons. To truly study them is fascinating and exciting, and brings new dimensions to collecting!

My notes here are mostly to reach the many readers out there, and I appreciate the forbearance of the many well seasoned and extremely knowledgeable contributors among our ranks.

Hi Jim,
Thank you for your interesting comments. Even though this sword has been through the mill and seen better days I love it for the images it invokes in my imagination, sorry about that.
I had already done some research on it using Stone, Egerton, Paul and the Internet but still found it difficult to decide. I eventually found in favour of Rajput mainly because I found more images of them having back curved blades than the Marathas although the latter did have two types of sword with a back curved blade, one that was straight for most of its length before curving whose name I cannot remember and a Talwar type called Ahir neither of which are very common. Incidentally the back curved blade was not seen in India before the 15 th to 16th centuries when it was introduced by the Persians (see Paul).
I also lean towards it being 18th century again because the state of the basket hilt resembles the state of the basket hilts shown in some references as being of this time or earlier but as you can see it is all supposition on my part and only more research is needed before I will be satisfied.
Thanks again for your reply.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

GREETINGS LOOKS LIKE A FIRANGI SWORD TO ME,CHEERS

Hi Bandook, thanks for your comment.
I refer you to Jims reply re Firangi.
Regards
Miguel

[Emanuel]

Hi Miguel,

Here is a thread with some similar firangi-type swords for your records. They share the pierced Deccani hilt but have clearly-European blades.

Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Jim,
Thank you for your interesting comments. Even though this sword has been through the mill and seen better days I love it for the images it invokes in my imagination, sorry about that.
I had already done some research on it using Stone, Egerton, Paul and the Internet but still found it difficult to decide. I eventually found in favour of Rajput mainly because I found more images of them having back curved blades than the Marathas although the latter did have two types of sword with a back curved blade, one that was straight for most of its length before curving whose name I cannot remember and a Talwar type called Ahir neither of which are very common. Incidentally the back curved blade was not seen in India before the 15 th to 16th centuries when it was introduced by the Persians (see Paul).
I also lean towards it being 18th century again because the state of the basket hilt resembles the state of the basket hilts shown in some references as being of this time or earlier but as you can see it is all supposition on my part and only more research is needed before I will be satisfied.
Thanks again for your reply.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel,
Thank you so much for the personal response! That is most appreciated.
Not sure why you apologize for having imagination and images.....that is what this is all about!
I am glad you are pursuing research on this.....the references you note are of course the venerable and standard ones most used, and always serve as valuable benchmarks to set the course further.
I am inclined to agree with your very soundly reasoned ideas on this probably being Rajput, which though speculative seems most likely.

I am most curious about your reference to 'back curved' and not sure what sword you refer to which is Maratha straight most of length then curved or the tulwar called asir.....are these references from 'Paul' ?
Do you have access to "Indian Arms & Armour", G.N.Pant, 1980?

Very good notes on the research you have done thus far, and thank you for sharing these in detail. Often it seems the more I think I have learned, the more I realize I don't know thoroughly......so I can well relate to your comments on more research.

Very best regards,
Jim

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Hi Miguel,

Here is a thread with some similar firangi-type swords for your records. They share the pierced Deccani hilt but have clearly-European blades.

Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,
Thank you so much for making me aware of that thread. I found it very interesting. How similar these basket hilts are and most of them appear to be in the same condition which from my research to date indicates that they are 17 th to 18th century. I see by your comments that you like your sword as much as I like mine. In case you did not notice my sword has had welded repairs carried out to the knuckle guards. It is not surprising considering their age and condition. Your sword is a nice example of a Firangi.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Miguel,
Thank you so much for the personal response! That is most appreciated.
Not sure why you apologize for having imagination and images.....that is what this is all about!
I am glad you are pursuing research on this.....the references you note are of course the venerable and standard ones most used, and always serve as valuable benchmarks to set the course further.
I am inclined to agree with your very soundly reasoned ideas on this probably being Rajput, which though speculative seems most likely.

I am most curious about your reference to 'back curved' and not sure what sword you refer to which is Maratha straight most of length then curved or the tulwar called asir.....are these references from 'Paul' ?
Do you have access to "Indian Arms & Armour", G.N.Pant, 1980?

Very good notes on the research you have done thus far, and thank you for sharing these in detail. Often it seems the more I think I have learned, the more I realize I don't know thoroughly......so I can well relate to your comments on more research.

Very best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your reply, I have a correction to make concerning my comments re the back curved sword. I should have said that they were not adopted or used until the 15th and 16th centuries. By back curved I mean curved upwards like Shamshirs or Sabres, sorry for the confusion. With regard to the two Maratha back curved swords that I mentioned I found these in the book called Islamic Weapons Maghrib to Moghul by Anthony C Tirri which has a great selection of images of weapons from all over the Islamic world. The Ahir is an upward curving sword like a Talwar shown on page 313 Fig 232A and the sword that is straight for two thirds of its length before curving upwards is called a Surai and is shown on page 326 Fig 248A. Both these types are shown with basket hilts. Trusting that this helps.
Finally I would advise that I do not have access to the book you mention and would be obliged if you could let me know if it is still available.
Best regards
Miguel