how curved can a tulwar be?

stephen wood · 23rd July 2008, 03:03 PM

Hello,

on finding this tulwar I was quite impressed by the amount of curve at the beginning of the false edge - does anyone recognize the particular type?

Many thanks.

RhysMichael · 23rd July 2008, 03:47 PM

I've seen other Tulwar with highly curved blades. I have seen some of them described as shamshir when the blade cuved this much even though they had tulwar hilts. I don't know which is the proper naming. Someone here will. This looks like a great blade the tip flares some a little like a kilij. My impression from the picture is that you have a good find. As I said though others will better be able to tell you

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2008, 08:27 PM

Hi Stephen,
This is a beautiful example of a tulwar, all the more so for its simplicity which suggests it is primarily a fighting weapon without the ceremonial affectations. The uniform light pitting nicely reflects its age into likely 18th century, as well as the style which suggests to me it is probably from Rajasthan or regions into Punjab.

The blade with yelman also has a pronounced ricasso at the terminus of the blade edge near the hilt. It seems there has been considerable debate on this, but there is a vaguely described tulwar form attributed primarily to Sikhs termed 'halab'. In the description it, as noted, includes reference to finger guard, and it seems possible this raised ricasso might meet that definition.
The extreme upturn and yelman on this blade is unusual, but by no means unique and it seems that Indian blades with yelman are mostly of 18th century into the opening of the 19th.

It seems there are likely more specific references not at hand at the moment, but I would say at first glance, this tulwar is quite likely either Sikh or Rajput and of the regions and period noted.

The Persian term shamshir refers to those curved blades which radius to a point without yelman. The Mughal courts were of course highly characterized by Persian influence, which added confusion to terminology with tulwar a generally applied term used in India for sword, and the Persian term applied to swords with the angled pommel hilt. I have seen sabres with Persian style hilt and Indian flueret langets and tulwar quillon terminals with knuckleguard called 'Persian style hilt tulwar'. I have usually considered these from Sind, but research remains incomplete.

As always, more research will likely reveal more!

A very nice warrior!

All the best,
Jim

ward · 23rd July 2008, 11:13 PM

This is not particulary unusuall. Yes it is persian influenced.

chevalier · 24th July 2008, 12:03 AM

now that i have mine, pictures should be forthcomming

stephen wood · 24th July 2008, 05:32 PM

...many thanks for your help.

when it arrives I will post more images and dimensions. Presumably the index finger was looped over the quillon?

Rick · 24th July 2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

[FONT=Book Antiqua
Presumably the index finger was looped over the quillon?[/FONT]

That has been the source of some discussion on this site .

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2008, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

That has been the source of some discussion on this site .

Oh Oh!!!

Rick · 24th July 2008, 07:56 PM

I think we came to the conclusion that the Indian style of swordsmanship dictated no fingering of the quillon .

I am a forgetful old man so all bets are off on this being correct .

fernando · 24th July 2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I think we came to the conclusion that the Indian style of swordsmanship dictated no fingering of the quillon .

I am a forgetful old man so all bets are off on this being correct .

You mean correct on the quillon issue or on being an old man?
The age part frightens me ... i'm only half year "younger"

fernando · 24th July 2008, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Oh Oh!!!

Oh Oh plus

Rick · 24th July 2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

You mean correct on the quillon issue or on being an old man?
The age part frightens me ... i'm only half year "younger"

Andrew · 24th July 2008, 11:33 PM

Rick, you are correct. On both counts.

23rd July 2008, 03:03 PM	#1
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	how curved can a tulwar be? (before it becomes a shamshir) Hello, on finding this tulwar I was quite impressed by the amount of curve at the beginning of the false edge - does anyone recognize the particular type? Many thanks. Attached Images Last edited by stephen wood; 23rd July 2008 at 04:10 PM. Reason: spelling

23rd July 2008, 08:27 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Hi Stephen, This is a beautiful example of a tulwar, all the more so for its simplicity which suggests it is primarily a fighting weapon without the ceremonial affectations. The uniform light pitting nicely reflects its age into likely 18th century, as well as the style which suggests to me it is probably from Rajasthan or regions into Punjab. The blade with yelman also has a pronounced ricasso at the terminus of the blade edge near the hilt. It seems there has been considerable debate on this, but there is a vaguely described tulwar form attributed primarily to Sikhs termed 'halab'. In the description it, as noted, includes reference to finger guard, and it seems possible this raised ricasso might meet that definition. The extreme upturn and yelman on this blade is unusual, but by no means unique and it seems that Indian blades with yelman are mostly of 18th century into the opening of the 19th. It seems there are likely more specific references not at hand at the moment, but I would say at first glance, this tulwar is quite likely either Sikh or Rajput and of the regions and period noted. The Persian term shamshir refers to those curved blades which radius to a point without yelman. The Mughal courts were of course highly characterized by Persian influence, which added confusion to terminology with tulwar a generally applied term used in India for sword, and the Persian term applied to swords with the angled pommel hilt. I have seen sabres with Persian style hilt and Indian flueret langets and tulwar quillon terminals with knuckleguard called 'Persian style hilt tulwar'. I have usually considered these from Sind, but research remains incomplete. As always, more research will likely reveal more! A very nice warrior! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 24th July 2008 at 12:42 AM.

23rd July 2008, 03:47 PM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I've seen other Tulwar with highly curved blades. I have seen some of them described as shamshir when the blade cuved this much even though they had tulwar hilts. I don't know which is the proper naming. Someone here will. This looks like a great blade the tip flares some a little like a kilij. My impression from the picture is that you have a good find. As I said though others will better be able to tell you

23rd July 2008, 11:13 PM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	This is not particulary unusuall. Yes it is persian influenced.

24th July 2008, 12:03 AM	#5
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	now that i have mine, pictures should be forthcomming

24th July 2008, 05:32 PM	#6
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...many thanks for your help. when it arrives I will post more images and dimensions. Presumably the index finger was looped over the quillon?

24th July 2008, 07:56 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I think we came to the conclusion that the Indian style of swordsmanship dictated no fingering of the quillon . I am a forgetful old man so all bets are off on this being correct .

24th July 2008, 11:33 PM	#13
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Rick, you are correct. On both counts.