Cleaning and polishing my bali-keris

njo kesasar · 21st January 2010, 01:28 PM

On july, 19th 2008 Semar posted a nice picture of his balikeris with Parasvati-hilt. In the replies various colors were mentioned of the
ivory: caramel and dark brown. Some months ago I've bought this bali patrem-keris and would very much like to know the following:

1 - on internet I found the following definition: QUOTE It is called patrem if the length of the keris, measured from the 'Ganja’ until the
point of the Keris, is as long as the length of one span of adult human footstep UNQUOTE. If this is the standard, which foot are we talking
about: my size 11 or anyone else's size? Can't find an inch- or cm-definition.

2 - Which person/god/demon is my hilt representing?

3 - Can't determine whether the hilt is ivory ore bone because of its color (and yes I did the needle test) and like to remove the brownish
color if that can be done at all.

4 - Like to clean/polish the pendok as well. Tried various methods (cloths, silverpolish as well as lemonjuice) but except for a very light
improvement it doesn't get me anywhere.

All your expertise will be very much appreciated, THANKS
Njo

David · 21st January 2010, 04:39 PM

Hmmm....i don't think your hilt is ivory, or very old for that matter. It might be bone, but it is hard to tell with all the gunk they painted onto it to give it the appearance of age. I generally clean up ivory and bone pieces with a toothbrush and a little bit of mineral oil, but since i don't know the natural of the applied black stuff i don't know what you might need to remove it.
I suspect that your blade is also contemporary and as such it's origins are more likely Madura than Bali, though this is still a "Bali-style" keris. As for whether it should be called a patrem or not, how long is the blade? I am not sure if there is any hard and fast rules for this, but i usually count blades under 10" as possible patrems.

njo kesasar · 21st January 2010, 04:57 PM

Hi David,
Thanks for your quick reply.
The blade is 9 inches long and yeah perhaps I've been mislead by the gemstones on mendak and pendok to call it Bali. As for the hilt I will give it a try. Nevertheless I hope to receive more suggestions to clean the hilt.
Thanks again,
Njo

asomotif · 21st January 2010, 08:34 PM

I Once cleaned a hilt made of antler with a toothbrush and toothpaste !
That really got it white and clean (Not a joke).
Event that clean that I applied some antiquewax again.

The toothpaste advise was something I once read for cleaning ray-skin sabre hilts.

For the pendok I would think that some brass polish would do fine, or maybe even to fine. Do you want it to shine ?

Sajen · 21st January 2010, 09:02 PM

Be carefull by cleaning the pendok because it is maybe thin gilded, try it with a toothbrush and a mild soap.

David · 21st January 2010, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Be carefull by cleaning the pendok because it is maybe thin gilded, try it with a toothbrush and a mild soap.

It doesn't look gilded to me.

njo kesasar · 21st January 2010, 09:56 PM

Sajen
David
Perhaps some confusion occurred, it´s all my mistake: not being a professional photographer the pendok seems to be gilded but isn´t, it is silver(like)

sirek · 21st January 2010, 10:25 PM

about your question about the length of one span of adult human footstep

I found this on the net, you might find it useful.

guwaya · 22nd January 2010, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirek

about your question about the length of one span of adult human footstep

I found this on the net, you might find it useful.

Hello Sirek,

could you give us the url. of the site where you found it?

Thanks,
guwaya

sirek · 22nd January 2010, 09:33 AM

certainly guwaya,

but it is a French site so it is all written in French

(If you do not understand french, maybe you can translate with the google toolbar)

http://blade.japet.com/KRISS/KERIS.htm

guwaya · 22nd January 2010, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirek

certainly guwaya,

but it is a French site so it is all written in French

(If you do not understand french, maybe you can translate with the google toolbar)

http://blade.japet.com/KRISS/KERIS.htm

Thanks a lot sirek - I think I can manage the translation.

njo kesasar · 22nd January 2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

I Once cleaned a hilt made of antler with a toothbrush and toothpaste !
That really got it white and clean (Not a joke).
Event that clean that I applied some antiquewax again.

The toothpaste advise was something I once read for cleaning ray-skin sabre hilts.

For the pendok I would think that some brass polish would do fine, or maybe even to fine. Do you want it to shine ?

Ehmmm.....yeah like it shining but I´m afraid the grooves can´t be reached that is, I don´t know how thin the silver(plate) is and don´t want to destroy the pendok. Will try the brasspolish. THKS

David · 22nd January 2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njo kesasar

Perhaps some confusion occurred, it´s all my mistake: not being a professional photographer the pendok seems to be gilded but isn´t, it is silver(like)

If it didn't polish with with silver polish and a cloth it is not likely that it is either silver or silver plate, just some kind of white metal. Silver tends to tarnish to a blackish tone which doesn't seem to be the case with your pendok, even taking the color shift into account.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd January 2010, 10:58 AM

I would be inclined to leave this keris exactly as it is.

I rather feel that attempting to alter the intentionally created appearance of this keris might result in some unintended surprises.

njo kesasar · 23rd January 2010, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I would be inclined to leave this keris exactly as it is.

I rather feel that attempting to alter the intentionally created appearance of this keris might result in some unintended surprises.

Alan,
I do agree with you to leave (certain) things as they are, got curious though to the material of the hilt. I followed the tips I received however before your reply reached me. I won´t say I´m disappointed so far because here are the results of an overnight soaking (two times) in denture cleaning tablets (as an addition to the tip of Asomotif ) and brushing with oil and toothpaste. I think it is bone material, don´t know what bone though, could be deer as well as karbau

??
Don´t know either who this is, Hanuhman or Sugriva or ........? Can´t find a tail at his back and wonder what he is carrying in both right (rujakpolo?) and left hand. Some surprises? Yes, there is some damage, deep scratches at the chest and lime at the jaw. Well, it is as it is. Decided to leave the pendok as is, because I noticed some detachment at the side of the pendok.
Regards, njo
To anybody
Any comment on the figure is very welcome: who, what etc etc

David · 23rd January 2010, 05:19 PM

Might be your photography again, but frankly this material looks a lot more like some kind of composite material to me.

njo kesasar · 23rd January 2010, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Might be your photography again, but frankly this material looks a lot more like some kind of composite material to me.

Ignorent guy (me) David, how can I determine composite material?

Rick · 23rd January 2010, 07:36 PM

The red hot pin test .

Poke it somewhere it will not be noticed .

Go by the resulting smoke smell .

David · 23rd January 2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The red hot pin test .

Poke it somewhere it will not be noticed .

Go by the resulting smoke smell .

Rick, he said he did the needle test in his first post, but i wasn't clear as to the result. This stuff looks very suspect to be though. It doesn't look like a natural material in many of the close-ups.

Rick · 23rd January 2010, 08:20 PM

Ah, I missed that David .

I see what may be a casting bubble in the third picture down in post 15; look at the crown, right hand side .

There seems to be a certain translucency to the material; the darker, more porous areas would indicate bone or horn .

A puzzler .

Njo, what did the hot pin test smell like ?

asomotif · 24th January 2010, 12:15 AM

Hello Njo,

Interesting result after cleaning.
The surface looks crystaline in some places.
Especially the pictures from the bottom.

And indeed translucent in some areas.
Based on these pictures I would almost say that it is some kind of stone / marble like material.

Is it heavy ??

Ps. what did the hot pin test do ? Any smell of burned hair
If it is a sort of stone a hot pin would do nothing I guess.

Maybe you can finish the hilt with some dark antique wax an rub that out again. Tha will accentuate the carvings and relief again.
Although now cleaned the carvings look better than before cleaning

Best regards,
Willem

njo kesasar · 24th January 2010, 12:54 AM

Rick David Asomotif
The burn test gives a wooden smell (did the test on the hilt as well on an Indonesian statue cut out of horn to compare, both with that result, so perhaps my nose is not that fine anymore

)
It´s heavy compared to his size
njo

njo kesasar · 24th January 2010, 01:17 AM

Some BW pictures if that may help (perhaps a workshop in taking good pictures for this forum?)

njo kesasar · 24th January 2010, 10:20 PM

Really nobody who can tell me who the person is?
Can someone show me the way then which literature or internetsite to consult?
THKS for your suggestions
Njo

Rick · 25th January 2010, 02:42 AM

I think the problem we run into with positively identifying these Bali Figural hilts is called 'Artistic License' or 'Carver's Interpretation' .

Unless they are unmistakable in their form they are open to interpretation .

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2010, 10:37 PM

Yes Rick, that's pretty true, especially with figures that are current era production.

If we go back to before about the 1930's, I think we probably see figures in Balinese carving that are more readily identifiable with specific entities, but when we move into the current era we find a more free interpretation by carvers, and a lot of figures that could be regarded as generic representations.

I'm not talking just about keris hilts, but about Balinese carvings of all shapes, sizes and qualities.

In the case of this hilt under discussion, I feel that what we have is a generic demon --- the fangs --- so let's call him a raksasa.

21st January 2010, 01:28 PM	#1
njo kesasar Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 17	Cleaning and polishing my bali-keris On july, 19th 2008 Semar posted a nice picture of his balikeris with Parasvati-hilt. In the replies various colors were mentioned of the ivory: caramel and dark brown. Some months ago I've bought this bali patrem-keris and would very much like to know the following: 1 - on internet I found the following definition: QUOTE It is called patrem if the length of the keris, measured from the 'Ganja’ until the point of the Keris, is as long as the length of one span of adult human footstep UNQUOTE. If this is the standard, which foot are we talking about: my size 11 or anyone else's size? Can't find an inch- or cm-definition. 2 - Which person/god/demon is my hilt representing? 3 - Can't determine whether the hilt is ivory ore bone because of its color (and yes I did the needle test) and like to remove the brownish color if that can be done at all. 4 - Like to clean/polish the pendok as well. Tried various methods (cloths, silverpolish as well as lemonjuice) but except for a very light improvement it doesn't get me anywhere. All your expertise will be very much appreciated, THANKS Njo Attached Images

21st January 2010, 04:57 PM	#3
njo kesasar Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 17	Patrem a.s.o. Hi David, Thanks for your quick reply. The blade is 9 inches long and yeah perhaps I've been mislead by the gemstones on mendak and pendok to call it Bali. As for the hilt I will give it a try. Nevertheless I hope to receive more suggestions to clean the hilt. Thanks again, Njo

21st January 2010, 10:25 PM	#8
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 169	about your question about the length of one span of adult human footstep I found this on the net, you might find it useful. Attached Images

24th January 2010, 01:17 AM	#23
njo kesasar Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 17	Some BW pictures if that may help (perhaps a workshop in taking good pictures for this forum?) Attached Images

21st January 2010, 04:39 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Hmmm....i don't think your hilt is ivory, or very old for that matter. It might be bone, but it is hard to tell with all the gunk they painted onto it to give it the appearance of age. I generally clean up ivory and bone pieces with a toothbrush and a little bit of mineral oil, but since i don't know the natural of the applied black stuff i don't know what you might need to remove it. I suspect that your blade is also contemporary and as such it's origins are more likely Madura than Bali, though this is still a "Bali-style" keris. As for whether it should be called a patrem or not, how long is the blade? I am not sure if there is any hard and fast rules for this, but i usually count blades under 10" as possible patrems.

21st January 2010, 08:34 PM	#4
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	I Once cleaned a hilt made of antler with a toothbrush and toothpaste ! That really got it white and clean (Not a joke). Event that clean that I applied some antiquewax again. The toothpaste advise was something I once read for cleaning ray-skin sabre hilts. For the pendok I would think that some brass polish would do fine, or maybe even to fine. Do you want it to shine ?

21st January 2010, 09:02 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Be carefull by cleaning the pendok because it is maybe thin gilded, try it with a toothbrush and a mild soap.

21st January 2010, 09:56 PM	#7
njo kesasar Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 17	Sajen David Perhaps some confusion occurred, it´s all my mistake: not being a professional photographer the pendok seems to be gilded but isn´t, it is silver(like)

22nd January 2010, 09:33 AM	#10
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 169	certainly guwaya, but it is a French site so it is all written in French (If you do not understand french, maybe you can translate with the google toolbar) http://blade.japet.com/KRISS/KERIS.htm

23rd January 2010, 10:58 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I would be inclined to leave this keris exactly as it is. I rather feel that attempting to alter the intentionally created appearance of this keris might result in some unintended surprises.

23rd January 2010, 05:19 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Might be your photography again, but frankly this material looks a lot more like some kind of composite material to me.

23rd January 2010, 07:36 PM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The red hot pin test . Poke it somewhere it will not be noticed . Go by the resulting smoke smell .

23rd January 2010, 08:20 PM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Ah, I missed that David . I see what may be a casting bubble in the third picture down in post 15; look at the crown, right hand side . There seems to be a certain translucency to the material; the darker, more porous areas would indicate bone or horn . A puzzler . Njo, what did the hot pin test smell like ?

24th January 2010, 12:15 AM	#21
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hello Njo, Interesting result after cleaning. The surface looks crystaline in some places. Especially the pictures from the bottom. And indeed translucent in some areas. Based on these pictures I would almost say that it is some kind of stone / marble like material. Is it heavy ?? Ps. what did the hot pin test do ? Any smell of burned hair If it is a sort of stone a hot pin would do nothing I guess. Maybe you can finish the hilt with some dark antique wax an rub that out again. Tha will accentuate the carvings and relief again. Although now cleaned the carvings look better than before cleaning Best regards, Willem

24th January 2010, 12:54 AM	#22
njo kesasar Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 17	Rick David Asomotif The burn test gives a wooden smell (did the test on the hilt as well on an Indonesian statue cut out of horn to compare, both with that result, so perhaps my nose is not that fine anymore ) It´s heavy compared to his size njo

24th January 2010, 10:20 PM	#24
njo kesasar Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 17	Really nobody who can tell me who the person is? Can someone show me the way then which literature or internetsite to consult? THKS for your suggestions Njo

25th January 2010, 02:42 AM	#25
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I think the problem we run into with positively identifying these Bali Figural hilts is called 'Artistic License' or 'Carver's Interpretation' . Unless they are unmistakable in their form they are open to interpretation .

25th January 2010, 10:37 PM	#26
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes Rick, that's pretty true, especially with figures that are current era production. If we go back to before about the 1930's, I think we probably see figures in Balinese carving that are more readily identifiable with specific entities, but when we move into the current era we find a more free interpretation by carvers, and a lot of figures that could be regarded as generic representations. I'm not talking just about keris hilts, but about Balinese carvings of all shapes, sizes and qualities. In the case of this hilt under discussion, I feel that what we have is a generic demon --- the fangs --- so let's call him a raksasa.