Recognize Coat of Arms on Kindjal?

rand · 7th June 2009, 12:40 AM

Do anyone recognize the coat of arms on this kindjal?

rand · 7th June 2009, 01:47 PM

At first was thinking it may be Alexander III (1881-1894), but the shape of the Russian crowns seems like it should be globe shaped. Then I noticed that "III", in the Russian alphabet is pronounced "Shah" and was was thinking possibly associated with Persia. These are just preliminary observations......

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2009, 02:27 PM

I found these pictures of orders. The crowns on the Russian orders are similar to the crown on the scabbard of the knife. The sticky out side bits are prominent on the scabbard crown but it is still more like the Russian crowns than the persian crown on the order that shows a mountian and has Persian text. Is there Persian text on the blade?

ariel · 8th June 2009, 02:51 AM

I asked friends at the russian forum.

The crown is that of an un-titled Russian aristocracy ( kind of who had a right to be addressed as "sir", but had no title of a baron, count etc).
The letter is obviously Russian Sh, but no relations to the Sh-ah of Iran: just an initial, first letter of somebody's last name.
The date ( barely seen) isn't it 1331? 1912 Gregorian. Last good days of Russia.... It went downhill from there on....

TKV · 8th June 2009, 11:37 AM

Most probably daghestanian origin craftsman who was working in Georgia

rand · 8th June 2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I asked friends at the russian forum.

The crown is that of an un-titled Russian aristocracy ( kind of who had a right to be addressed as "sir", but had no title of a baron, count etc).
The letter is obviously Russian Sh, but no relations to the Sh-ah of Iran: just an initial, first letter of somebody's last name.
The date ( barely seen) isn't it 1331? 1912 Gregorian. Last good days of Russia.... It went downhill from there on....

Hey Ariel,

Very interesting about the crown meaning Russian aristocracy, do you have a reference for that?

The 1331 date, seems like it would read 3113 and hence not be a date. Although 1912 would seem to fit the time period this kindjal could be made.

Was thinking the numbers/letters may indicate a regiment or unit, do you think that is a possibility?

rand · 8th June 2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKV

Most probably daghestanian origin craftsman who was working in Georgia

You may be right about this being Dagastani craftsmanship as they are well known for this type of work. Do you think the decorative motif in both the repoussee silver and gold inlaid ivory is that of a rose? Can remember reading in "Sabres of Paradise' that yellow roses were brought to the head Shamans garden every morning.

ariel · 8th June 2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Hey Ariel,

Very interesting about the crown meaning Russian aristocracy, do you have a reference for that?

The 1331 date, seems like it would read 3113 and hence not be a date. Although 1912 would seem to fit the time period this kindjal could be made.

Was thinking the numbers/letters may indicate a regiment or unit, do you think that is a possibility?

I cannot enlarge the pic, but for the life of me, I see 1331. It can only be a date. This is not a military kindjal: a souvenir to hang on the wall and tell the friends about wild Cherkess and gorgeous georgian houries...
It is too beautiful to risk damaging it on the battlefield...
What is the inscription on the other side of the blade?
And, no, I do not have a reference, but that was a casual and confidential opinion on the Russian forum dealing with Imperial and Caucasian arms. Kind of... " everybody knows" and a shrug...

rand · 8th June 2009, 09:05 PM

Ariel,

Here is a photo of the other side showing a date of 1894, that would clearly be an indication the numbers/letters on other side are not a date.

rand · 8th June 2009, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I asked friends at the russian forum.

The crown is that of an un-titled Russian aristocracy ( kind of who had a right to be addressed as "sir", but had no title of a baron, count etc).
The letter is obviously Russian Sh, but no relations to the Sh-ah of Iran: just an initial, first letter of somebody's last name.
The date ( barely seen) isn't it 1331? 1912 Gregorian. Last good days of Russia.... It went downhill from there on....

Ariel,

Sacre Blu!! When you mertioned 1331 I was thinking you were talking about the silver repoussee!!! Here is a close-up of the inscription on the blade with as you pointed out is 1331 and also has an owners or makers name. Interesting to note the silverwork is stamped with a date 1894 and the blades inscription is 1912-1913.

TKV · 9th June 2009, 12:53 AM

It's usual thing that the blade could be changed during period of use

ariel · 9th June 2009, 03:15 AM

Stamps on the scabbard are the probirer's marks. 84 is purity of silver.1894.. I will have to look in the books.

7th June 2009, 12:40 AM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Recognize Coat of Arms on Kindjal? Do anyone recognize the coat of arms on this kindjal? Attached Images

7th June 2009, 02:27 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I found these pictures of orders. The crowns on the Russian orders are similar to the crown on the scabbard of the knife. The sticky out side bits are prominent on the scabbard crown but it is still more like the Russian crowns than the persian crown on the order that shows a mountian and has Persian text. Is there Persian text on the blade? Attached Images

8th June 2009, 09:05 PM	#9
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Ariel, Here is a photo of the other side showing a date of 1894, that would clearly be an indication the numbers/letters on other side are not a date. Attached Images

7th June 2009, 01:47 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	At first was thinking it may be Alexander III (1881-1894), but the shape of the Russian crowns seems like it should be globe shaped. Then I noticed that "III", in the Russian alphabet is pronounced "Shah" and was was thinking possibly associated with Persia. These are just preliminary observations......

8th June 2009, 02:51 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I asked friends at the russian forum. The crown is that of an un-titled Russian aristocracy ( kind of who had a right to be addressed as "sir", but had no title of a baron, count etc). The letter is obviously Russian Sh, but no relations to the Sh-ah of Iran: just an initial, first letter of somebody's last name. The date ( barely seen) isn't it 1331? 1912 Gregorian. Last good days of Russia.... It went downhill from there on....

8th June 2009, 11:37 AM	#5
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	Most probably daghestanian origin craftsman who was working in Georgia

9th June 2009, 12:53 AM	#11
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	It's usual thing that the blade could be changed during period of use

9th June 2009, 03:15 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Stamps on the scabbard are the probirer's marks. 84 is purity of silver.1894.. I will have to look in the books.