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#1 |
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On sword blades typically of Austro-Hungarian origin it seems, this word/name? appears, sometimes with the familiar 'sickle' marks. It would seem the period of occurrence extends from mid 16th century to mid 18th century, and it would be interesting to know if anyone has ideas on what this word might mean.
Of course I know this has been discussed before, but this renewed effort is simply to provide material for the readers, and as an exercise for those who participate regularly......our stalwart legion!!! ![]() |
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#2 | |
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Frigia? An area of today's Turkey. I believe the Persians used to have blade factories there.
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#3 |
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Here is one, but unfortunately the blade is not shown. It is engraved on both sides of the blade with the word Fringia, the sun, the moon and stars. Last half of 18th century.
http://www.dorotheum.com/auktion-det...nschneide.html |
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#4 |
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Thank you so much Manolo and Jens!!! Exactly what I was referring to...you guys always step in to help out, and I am very grateful. One never knows where key bits of information might be found, and sharing anything might be the key.
I first encountered the word FRINGIA on sword blades noted in Eduard Wagner's "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (London, 1967) in material on pages 348-349. It appears as early as the blade of the sabre of the famed Polish king Stephan Bathory (1532-86) and seems to have continued to be seen on Eastern European sabre blades through the 18th century. Many of these blades seem to have also carried the magic/talismanic motif which became popular on blades in these regions as well, including sun, moon, stars in varying number, style and arrangement. These features are represented in this nicely done sabre you posted Jens, and reflect the consistant use of these motifs. Manolo, I had never heard of this word occurring on Islamic sword blades, nor the presence of Persian blade factories in Turkey, and assume this would be noted in "Arms and Armour from Iran", by Manoucher Mostagh ? I do not have this reference but it consistantly gets good reviews, as it is one of the few reference works in English on these weapons. It seems to make sense, as the Persians did send bladesmiths into other regions, India and Central Asia, and particularly I would imagine into Ottoman regions. The FRINGIA marking seems to occur along with 'sickle' marks as well, with these devices well known on trade blades which became commonly associated with the Styrian swordsmiths. Sir James Mann, in his 1962 work on the Wallace Collections notes that not only FRINGIA, FERARA and GENOA appear framed by these markings, but some of the accompanying motif as well. Since these representations seem to be applied on trade blades to extol the virtues of the blades quality, perhaps the word FRINGIA occurs in that sense as well, and is of course equally elusive. We still do not know conclusively the details of the mysterious ANDREA FERARA, but know that the 'name' appears on Solingen blades, often with the sickle marks. GENOA of course derives from the port of departure in earlier times for quality Italian blades from North Italy. That FRINGIA appears in this sense on Ottoman blades seems surprising, but understandable in that by early 19th century this faltering empire was leaning toward the west in Turkey's adoption of its military fashion and weaponry in degree. Persia had become more commercial in production of trade blades (as discussed by Oliver Pinchot in his outstanding article on Assad Adullah) and certainly Turkey had similar designs in its trade oriented weapons. I think it was Ariel who once suggested the word might be associated to the term 'ferangi', often used as we know to describe certain weapons in India with trade blades (ferangi, phirangi= foreign), which I thought brilliantly astute. The earlier use of the word on the Bathory sword would unfortunately appear to defeat this possibility, and I'd like to know more on that. On a more contrived note, Wagner (op. cit. p.348-9) suggests that this term is actually an acronym " FR= Fredericus III, Holy Roman Emperor 1415-93 Rex= Hungariae IN Germania Imperator Augustus FRINGIA Plausible? Yes.......but, conclusive, far from it. The many variations of spelling ; FRINDIA, FRINCIA , FRANGIA may be the typical instances of misspelling characteristic on trade blades carrying spurious markings and names, but in earlier examples in context might weaken the acronym theory. Well gentlemen, these are what little I have known on this curious word that stands on so many blades to taunt us, and my thoughts in line with the posts Manolo and Jens have added along with the known material I have seen. I encourage all out there reading to think on this, and try to recall perhaps a place name, linguists, a word or term, perhaps a historic figure.....any of these that might offer clues. All thoughts and ideas will be gratefully received, please join in on our little mystery!!!! ![]() Thank you again guys! All very best regards, Jim |
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#5 |
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Hi Jim,
I have had a look in Manoucherer's book - in the index, and I could not find the word Fringia. So maybe is it mentioned, and maybe it is not. I am sorry, but my knowledge on the subject is too little to add further. Jens |
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#6 |
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Hi Jens,
Thank you so much.....I keep getting the reference to fringia in accounts and reviews concerning the book on google search, so it must be in there somewhere, and as in many reference books, not properly indexed. In continuing the google search, I think I have discovered the possible answers here. I thought of myself as a reader, and wondering about this apparant conundrum, without books or library at hand, the only place I had to turn was the computer and google search. At first the word 'fringe' kept coming up, which means literally a border, and began to wonder if perhaps fringia might be a Latinized reference to border regions, as in Hungary, which was once (1526-1699) a border region of the Ottoman Empire. Further searches continued to reveal auctions, such as "Arms and Armor of Archduke Eugen" , a 1927 catalog published in 2008 by Ron Ruble, which showed three Hungarian sabres, all with etched sun. moons and trophies along with FRINGIA. Others were 19th century Austro-Hungarian mameluke sabre with the same celestial figures as FRINGIA. Another however was a Prussian M1811 Bluchersabel which carried the FRINGIA on the blade. In a reference by the Hungarian Way History Museum, a very attractive sabre is shown referring to it as a 'Fringia', a typical kind of Hungarian sabre which was developed in early 18th c (?) The origin of the name fringia is still a controversial question, however it is believed to be Turkish. Now here was support for the potential of Turkish connection to the term, as noted by Manolo and which I have seen previously in various references, but questioned because of the Latin sounding nature of the word. In further search I then found a title (still under fringia) , "Liberty and the Search for Identity" by Ivan Zoltan Denes (2006, p.221) with reference to the Hungarian gentry c.1860, noting "...the gentry intended to realize this new program with a number of 'refuedalizing' actions: they started to use their FRINGIA, coats of arms and titles of nobility, again, together with all the relics of the old fuedal life". Here was the term, and referring to its association with earlier fuedalism and tradition, but still unclear on the meaning. Obviously, the sabres noted by the Hungarian museum developed much earlier than the 18th century, and Hungarian as well as East European, weaponry and military approaches to warfare developed from Turkish models, among clearly many cultural influences. I then found "Cross and Crescent: Turkish Age in Hungary 1526-1699" an entry in the Encyclopedia Humana Hungarica 05. This was entirely amazing as it described virtually all facets of the influences in Hungary by its Ottoman suzereigns, and included treatment on the loan words as well. Regarding weaponry, the term dzsida = a type of spear; handszar =a short sword and damocki = damascus........ But, best of all.... FRINGIA = MADE OF FINE STEEL !!!! So it would appear that this term, much as with the well established 'Eisenhauer' (= iron cutter, German) was not a maker, but a quality term....and seems to have arisen as early as Stephen Bathory, who was mentioned in the reference to the revival of Hungarian nationalistic pride in the Denes book (op.cit.). As I began this thread yesterday, and wrote today, I had no knowledge of these references, and found them in the last several hours. Incredibly this was done entirely, and quite literally, sitting in a Winnebago in the remote desert area outside Tucson with only my trusty computer ![]() Although these results seem promising, certainly they are not conclusive, and I hope the readers out there will join with Jens, Manolo and myself in using resources at hand and our 'thinking caps' in pursuing this. Best regards as always, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th November 2009 at 09:35 PM. |
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#7 |
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Hi Jim
![]() Buendia posted ( sword markings thread) a scan of a page with several sword markings ....mainly various configurations of the 'eyelash' mark. One has the name FRINIA ....Buendia does not cite the reference but he is 'based' in Poland and the reference could be Polish ....not a million miles from Hungary ![]() Best Regards David |
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#8 | |
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Hello Jim,
Thats some fine research, you have done (and thus even answered your original question ![]() Indeed the article from Encyclopaedia Humana Hungarica 05 is very enlighting and well-written (albeit it also contains some minor errors , such as regarding martolos as being of souther slavic stock only , while other sources like the Encyclopedia of the OTTOMAN empire written by Ágoston/Masters (2009) points out that a great deal of them were also ethnic Vlachs), however I have been always been puzzled by the Handszar/Hançar "short-sword" you mentioned. Traditionaly the area of balkans and south-eastern europe of the post-conquest era is associated with yatagans or sabres , but I havent seen a single speciment of the aforementioned Handszar. The only reference I have been able to dig up is a similar word in a wikipedia entry on a bosniak-croat SS division ![]() The article states that Handschar (Bosnian/Croatian: Handar) was the local word for the Turkish scimitar a historical symbol of Bosnia and Islam which seem to confuse the matter futher. Also the coat of arms of the division reminds me of a shorter falchion-like hanger rather than a proper Turkish sword or yatagan. The other point I would like to adress from your post is Quote:
In essence they differed from the "traditional" central asian-turkish way of war. Turks traditionaly relied on composite bow , round "kalkan" shield and some lance work , either with shield , but mostly in a two handed fashion; Delis on the other hand used a combo of the assymetrical "balkan" shield and a couched lance as a primary means of offence. Actually, they remind me more of a traditional knightly lancer (as wierd as its sounds) , but changed by the foe he is facing (being sort of a "lite-edition" that has to fight/counter horse-archers). The assymetrical "balkan-rumelian" shield got also widespread among the Turks themselves , which reminds me that influence is often a two-way streets. Hope you dont mind the rambling , I got sometimes excited about the topic Cheers , Samuel Last edited by Samik; 9th November 2009 at 07:54 PM. |
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#9 |
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Hi David, and thanks for the note and adding that page illustrating this term and variants with the 'sickle' marks!!
Samuel, its great to see your absolutely magnificent response, and thank you so much for the detail and clarifying my statement. Your post was exactly what I look for in responses, well thought out and supported statements, and not in the least bit 'rambling'!!! ![]() I had read about the origins of that term years ago, but could not find a satisfactory connection with my limited understanding of linguistics. I am wondering what the Turkish 'loan' word that originated 'fringia' as 'fine steel'? On those swords and weapons depicted in coats of arms and many forms of classical illustration, most of these are quite fanciful and we cannot really rely on them for interpretations of contemporary weapons. I've run into this so many times, and recently trying to establish the form of a sword in earlier period, the depictions were of the same almost cartoonish style often seen in the same literature referring to 'scimitar'. This is of course more a literary term than actual sword type, though the shamshir is believed the source of the term. I really do appreciate the extraordinary attention you have given to describing the development of these units, and better explaining what my statement should have said. If my wife (my editor in chief!!! ![]() ![]() I have always considered the extremely complex history of Eastern Europe and the Balkans one of the most fascinating theatres of study, and I'm so glad to have your input and well written observations placed here. Your excitement on these topics is much appreciated, and again, may thanks! All very best regards, Jim |
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Hi Jim et al,
Unfortunately I cant add much to the above except to place a number of quotes I have found. Hungarian blade production, if it existed at all, must have been very limited, for seventeenth-century records tell of blade purchase in mass from Styrian and Italian manufacturies, and the great majority of surviving Hungarian sabers have Styrian or Genovese blades, often marked with crescent moons and the inscription <<GENOA>>, <<FRINGIA>>, <<FRANCIA>>, probably regarded as indications of quality in the East. Jan Ostrowski, Wojciech Bochnak Polish Sabers ;Their Origins and Evolution, Arts, and Armour: Held. Pg. 226 Also this type often had blades bearing makers marks called sickles and associated with Genoa, as well as inscriptions reading Genoa, Fringia or similar ones. This is linked with the lively activities of the north-Italian centers which at that time exported blades to Hungary and also to the countries of the Islamic East. Both the sickle marks and the inscriptions were soon adopted by the Styrian centers which first of all met the demands of the Hapsburg monarchy. A view is current that the Polish workshops, notably those in Gdansk, acted similarly." Nadolski, Polish Arms-Side Arms, Pg 35 I am note sure where the picture of Buendia came from, but a reproduction is found in Askhabov, Chechen Arms Pg.68 to illustrate the Gurda mark. I cant tell where the original is from, but, I would guess Astvatsaturyan. I would check if I could but I am still waiting for the English version ![]() All the Best Jeff |
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#11 |
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Outstanding Jeff!!! Those are great quotes from yet another group of books which didnt get into the bookmobile when the 'odyssey' began over two years ago!!
![]() Thank you for adding these, which really do support the 'quality' use of these words or terms. Its great to see you here again Jeff, Take care, all the best, Jim |
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The picture of the multiple "gurda" markings with a word Frinia indeed, comes from the Astvatsaturyan's book " Weapons of Caucasian nations"
Quote Jim: I think it was Ariel who once suggested the word might be associated to the term 'ferangi', often used as we know to describe certain weapons in India with trade blades (ferangi, phirangi= foreign), which I thought brilliantly astute. The earlier use of the word on the Bathory sword would unfortunately appear to defeat this possibility, and I'd like to know more on that. Well, Jim-sensei, I apologize humbly and profusely, but I have a counter-argument. Firangi was a word originally reserved for the Portugese; they came to India in 1498. Thus, I see no reason why the word could not have been used in the first half of the 16th century ( King Bathory).My point was that as soon as the Europeans realized that the natives liked the imported blades and called them Firangi, it only made sense to manufacture as many blades clearly marked Fringia to make the natives happy: " I have a real Firangi; it came from the Land of Fringia!" And some of these blades unquestionably found their way to Central Europe, Caucasus etc. |
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Hi Ariel,
No need to apologize for that my friend, actually I was hoping for just that ![]() Thank you for bringing the thread back up, and for a well presented counter position which is compelling indeed, and makes very good sense. I am far from being any kind of linguist, so it would be interesting to discover more on the entrance of the firangi/phirangi term into the dialects of Indian language. It seems quite possible that the FRINGIA term therefore might have an Ottoman Turkish root that entered the languages in Eastern Europe as well as those in India with the contact there in varying degree, then as noted, factoring in Portuguese contact . All the best, Jim |
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Would it be possible that the word Feringhi to derive simply from Franks? Another spelling on the blades ( as mentioned above) is Francia.
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#15 |
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Now theres another good suggestion Ariel!
The Franks were of course the key bladesmiths in early times, the ancestors of the Solingen smiths, so perhaps an interesting avenue for research. I had not thought of that possibility either.......and I have seen the FRANCIA variation. Lets check further. All the best, Jim |
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Hi Jim,
Greetings from Portugal ![]() So we were called Frangues, Franguis, Fringuins, Fringis, Firinghee; there were even places in Madras, formerly inhabited by Portuguese, called Fringe Burane and Feringhi or Frangula Dibba ... But i found no evident link between those and the discussed (mark on blades) Fringia ![]() Fernando |
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#18 |
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So as is so often the case, it is transliteration and loaned words that seems to be at the root of this word and its variations.
Francia/frangia/fringia/ferangi.....essentially associated with quality of good steel, as with the early Frankish blades, therefore applied accordingly on trade blades. No direct or apparant links between the words, but certainly compelling and plausible associations. You guys are good !!!! ![]() All the best, Jim |
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Interesting discussion gentlemen,
The "Frankish" connection seems very intriguing to say the least. I have searched a bit around Slovak sources and found a passage in an on-line article that somewhat reinforces the theory http://korzar.sme.sk/c/4534059/muzejna-abeceda.html To paraphrase Jozef Duchoň, an employee of Eastern Slovak Museum , " the origins of the term FRINGIA dwells somewhere in the times of the crusades, during which every Christian warrior was reffered to as "Franí" (Franji?), which was a corruption of the word Frank. Naturally the weapon of a Franí was thus called a "Franíja" (Franjia?). This Arabic term was later on borrowed by the Turks, that succedded in subduing Balkans as well as the majority of the former Kingdom of Hungary. Thus the oriental name for a weapon of european origin came into use in the central europe. The term originaly meant a slightly curved combat saber , that sported a wide blade as well as a pronounced yelmen. The weapon was in use from 17th till 19th century, especially during the anti-habsurg uprisings." Excuse the somewhat ad hoc translation. Also , I would take the statement with a pinch of salt, as curators (as well as museum employees) tend to sometimes amplify and even invent ridiculous theories in order to catch attention. Theoreticaly speaking though (i.e. when we would take this theory as valid), it doesnt sound that far feched. On the basis of the aforesaid theory , I would assume that the sabres manufactured in the territory of Ottomans were marked with FRINGIA letters , for the purpouse of being shiped to "FRINGIA" , i.e. Christian lands (non-ottoman europe , particulalry Poland and what was left of Christian Hungary+later liberated Hungary), but than again its speculation from my part. All the best, Samuel |
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#20 |
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Beautifully said Samuel !
In material discussing the exporting acumen of Solingen with thier well known blades, it is supposed that certain terms, phrases, markings and spurious adaptions of famed names were applied to appeal to certain markets. Most well known instance was probably that of ANDREA FERARA which was applied consistantly to blades destined for Scotland, although other names also occurred. The SAHAGUN name occurs on blades, but mostly seems to have focused on Continental swords. Therefore FRINGIA/FRANCIA and variations deriving from the medieval references to Franks and thier blades does not seem unreasonable. The Frankish blades export is well known through the studies on ULFBERT and related names on many of those blades, whose reputation easily paralleled and often even exceeded the blades of Toledo. It seems perplexing that earlier writers on arms never saw fit to look into the occurrence of this term on blades further, and in an excellent example of your note on fantastic theories.....the one recounted by Wagner using the contrived acronym ("Cut and Thrust Weapons" p.348-9) serves well ![]() Its great to get a clearer picture of what this term inscribed on blades realistically stands for, and truly gives a broader picture of the importance and complexity of trade blade systems through time. Thanks very much for the excellent input!!! All the best, Jim |
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Great discussion everyone.
Another point to throw in - The French also made their first expeditions to India in the mid-16th and early-17th centuries. While mostly localized on the Malabar coast, they did have connections to the rest of India. Aurangzeb had a French doctor, Francois Bernier. French presence could very well have given rise to the Fringia term in somewhat more recent memory than the crusades ![]() Emanuel |
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#22 |
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Indeed a very good point Emanuel! Hey, its great to see you posting here!!!
Its been a while my friend!!! ![]() All the best, Jim |
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![]() ![]() Drive safe! Emanuel |
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Fringia is on a lot of saber blades spelled different ways.
I asked Oliver Pinchot about it and he wrote "You can pretty well shave with Occam's Razor on this one. The appearance of the word FRINGIA, variously spelled though it is, almost certainly refers to Thuringia in Saxony for two reasons: 1) the iron ore mined there during the Middle Ages was reputed to be of very high quality, in fact it is still famous for it; it supplied the major arms-making center at Suhl. 2) it is common for the letters T and TH to shift to an F in many languages and dialects. So for Thuringia to become Fringia was a pretty short walk, orthographically speaking.". Ward |
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Well there ya have it!!!! Excellent Ward, and very well put by Oliver, in his very distinct and wry humor!
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Personally I really do not believe the word Fringia refers to a specific area in Central or Western Europe. To me, it simply means a sword with a Western European blade (and by Western European, everything West of Vienna is meant).
In Bulgarian folk songs it is mentioned as frengia, pronounced fraen-gee-ya, such as: Тънка пушка бойлия (Thin rifle boyliya) Остря сабя френгия (Sharp sword frengia) In Dr. Elgood's book, on page 49, we find another evidence that for the Ottomans, Frengi was just an adjective denoting European origin: Quote:
Regards, Teodor |
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I am with Teodor here.
First, if Thuringia gave birth to Fringia, what happened to the "u" sound? Second, transmutation of Th to F usually goes from W.European to Slavic languages. As an example ( just to make Teodor happy), Theodor became Fyodor in Russian. I thought for quite some time about a reverse move, and could not find an example. Anyone? Third, the Fringia blades came from different places in Europe; why would ( for example)Italians be influenced by a German locality? German blades in India gave birth to a curved saber called Alemani; but the name is French in origin. A crazy thought: was Francia ( another popular label) just a result of a mis-spelling, whereby the horizontal tick in G was missed and the letter became C ? Either Western masters were not exactly literate or the Eastern ones just copied the mark without understanding of the meaning ... Kind of like me re-drawing Chinese hieroglyphs :-) |
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Received in my email from Poland:
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#30 |
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This is absolutely fantastic! and it is excellent to have these older threads now archived being brought back to the fore with new information. The purpose of threads here has always been to collect and discuss information so our comprehensive understanding of these kinds of details advances.
It seems of course that the FRINGIA word or acronym is well placed in use by the time of the Bathory's (Stefan V Bathory 1430-1493; and Stephen Bathory 1533-1586) but it seems more likely used on the Hungarian sabres of latter 16th century. According to Nadolski (1974, p.35) these were becoming quite popular in line with the example belonging to Stephen Bathory along with the 'sickle' marks and 'GENOA' and 'FRINGIA' markings. These sabres were colloquially termed 'Batorowki'. In the turbulent political times then their counterparts were sabres with likenesses of Sigismund III Vasa which were termed 'Zygmuntowki' . In "Edged Weapons: Sabres of the Habsburg Monarchy 16-20th Centuries" (Petr Konipsky and Petr Moudry, Prague, 1991) on p.41 there is a sabre of Austrian hussars officer of 18th century, with the usual sun, moon, star motif and FRINGIA. As noted by the anonymous contributor here, this new information is most enlightening concerning the context for this well established word or acrostic. It would appear of course that the earlier used word was realigned to represent the patriotic acronym referring to Francis II Rokoczi (1676-1735) who led uprisings (1703-1711) against the Habsburgs. The use of these kinds of acronyms and acrostic symbolism seems well known in the turbulence of political intriques and conflict well known in these regions, so this is most helpful information. In "Liberty and the Search for Identity" (Iven Zolton Denes, 2006, p.221) with reference to the Hungarian gentry c.1860, it is noted that "...the gentry intended to realize this new program with a number of refuedalizing actions and they started to use their FRINGIA coats of arms and titles of nobility again, together with all the relics of old feudal life". As always, the weapons carry these indicators and clues of rich historic heritage, and act as our guides as we follow their lead in uncovering what we may not have otherwise realized. Lee, thank you so very much for posting this information and bringing this thread back, and deepest thanks to our contributor . Very best regards, Jim |
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